Okay thanks.
Racism incident in PSG v Istanbul match
- Thread starter Theafonis
- Start date
My 2 cents as a portuguese speaker:
In portuguese when talking about "black people" (whatever this group is) using the main word for black ("preto" / "preta") is considered much more racist that using the word "negro" / "negra". Sometime in the past it was deemed that "preto" was more offensive than "negro" so the later became the term to refer to "black people". This is easy to check: go to wikipedia in the english article "Black people" and switch to the portuguese page - and bam, "negro" everywhere.
In TV, for example, people use the word "negro" or simply "from african descent" when refering to things related to "black people", say they are commenting on the american election voting bases, the journalists / specialists will use the word "negro" / "negra" to refer to them as well "african-american" etc
So in portuguese "negro" / "negra" has the formal / official societal approval to be used to refer to this "group of people".
This said, it is definitively awkward to use the word "negro" to describe single people, people do it even on TV but they always sort of cringe or slow down their speech to make sure they don't "trip" when using it. The most consensus use it to use "from african descent" or "from the african community", "people of colour" is also used sometimes but it is also sort of awkward. You can defuse it further by using "raça negra" (black race), which when refering to an individual seems to be seen as less offensive.
The thing is, "black people" don't use the word "negro" among themselves much (neither "preto" of course although some "black people" prefer this word to try to kill up the stigma around the colour) , so that there is a semi-taboo around it, you can use it but only in very formal and careful scenarios where you are sure no one will interpret it as racist, just as neutral description.
In english language, however, things are a bit more awkward and complicated. The n-word is universally rejected as super offensive, but actually not because black people can use it among themselves in certain circumstances just fine. Then the term "black" is generally fine and "black people" use it often to describe themselves (black lives matter, black power, etc), as does several formal / official uses for the society as a whole, but then the word might be offensive if used by someone non-white to a black person.
So it is confusing why some people are proud to be "black" in their own words but then are offended when they are called "black". What matters here is the intent, is black being used as an insult (if someone is insulted by that - not everyone can be) or if black is being used as descriptive only.
So, if this happened with portuguese officials it would be bad because there is consensus to not use that word to refer to someone specifically as it is awkward. If confusion started from it the referee would know that he screwed up.
I don't know romanian but I think the usage of the word "negru" should be similar - it is an ok word to refer to "black people" as a whole, not sure if fine to refer to some individual specifically, probably not.
So I think the referee (assistant or 4th one) tried to use the word in his language that is often use for that "race", without any intent of racial insult.
If this is like portuguese, then he wasn't racist but unprofessional, he tried to tell the main referee who the guy he should red card was, and his colour / race whatever was the fast and simple way to identity the person, without any intent of racism. If the person was blond I think he would say "that blond guy" as well, he is just pointing out, or "that white guy" if he was easy to single out for that "reason".
Worse for him is that the word in romanian is close to the n-word in english (and french), and as the people around don't know romanian (I guess?) they thought the referee was using a common racial insult word to point to him, especially when he was telling the referee to "punish" him.
Then the storm started and no explanation, even if fully legitimate (not discussing here if it's or not), can calm it down when it starts. In the field or in social media.
My opinion (I'm not in the referee's head so here is what I interpret):
It was not racism. It was unprofessional and maybe rude.
He had no intent to hurt or insult the person because he was black, all he wanted to do was to identify the person and he picked the fastest/simplest physical trait to help with that.
Regardless of his intent, now the social media will burn him down, he's finished.
Post-scriptum comment:
I think people should really come together to decide what words are acceptable or not. A physical trait is just a physical trait and like any trait it can be useful to use in several scenarios (yes, really).
In this case many people are lumped together in this group of "black people" regardless of who they are and where they come from, and this is not only done by "white people" (also whatever that is).
So is there any word we can use that is never offensive? "From african descent" is not very good anyway as "black people" also exist outside of Africa.
In portuguese when talking about "black people" (whatever this group is) using the main word for black ("preto" / "preta") is considered much more racist that using the word "negro" / "negra". Sometime in the past it was deemed that "preto" was more offensive than "negro" so the later became the term to refer to "black people". This is easy to check: go to wikipedia in the english article "Black people" and switch to the portuguese page - and bam, "negro" everywhere.
In TV, for example, people use the word "negro" or simply "from african descent" when refering to things related to "black people", say they are commenting on the american election voting bases, the journalists / specialists will use the word "negro" / "negra" to refer to them as well "african-american" etc
So in portuguese "negro" / "negra" has the formal / official societal approval to be used to refer to this "group of people".
This said, it is definitively awkward to use the word "negro" to describe single people, people do it even on TV but they always sort of cringe or slow down their speech to make sure they don't "trip" when using it. The most consensus use it to use "from african descent" or "from the african community", "people of colour" is also used sometimes but it is also sort of awkward. You can defuse it further by using "raça negra" (black race), which when refering to an individual seems to be seen as less offensive.
The thing is, "black people" don't use the word "negro" among themselves much (neither "preto" of course although some "black people" prefer this word to try to kill up the stigma around the colour) , so that there is a semi-taboo around it, you can use it but only in very formal and careful scenarios where you are sure no one will interpret it as racist, just as neutral description.
In english language, however, things are a bit more awkward and complicated. The n-word is universally rejected as super offensive, but actually not because black people can use it among themselves in certain circumstances just fine. Then the term "black" is generally fine and "black people" use it often to describe themselves (black lives matter, black power, etc), as does several formal / official uses for the society as a whole, but then the word might be offensive if used by someone non-white to a black person.
So it is confusing why some people are proud to be "black" in their own words but then are offended when they are called "black". What matters here is the intent, is black being used as an insult (if someone is insulted by that - not everyone can be) or if black is being used as descriptive only.
So, if this happened with portuguese officials it would be bad because there is consensus to not use that word to refer to someone specifically as it is awkward. If confusion started from it the referee would know that he screwed up.
I don't know romanian but I think the usage of the word "negru" should be similar - it is an ok word to refer to "black people" as a whole, not sure if fine to refer to some individual specifically, probably not.
So I think the referee (assistant or 4th one) tried to use the word in his language that is often use for that "race", without any intent of racial insult.
If this is like portuguese, then he wasn't racist but unprofessional, he tried to tell the main referee who the guy he should red card was, and his colour / race whatever was the fast and simple way to identity the person, without any intent of racism. If the person was blond I think he would say "that blond guy" as well, he is just pointing out, or "that white guy" if he was easy to single out for that "reason".
Worse for him is that the word in romanian is close to the n-word in english (and french), and as the people around don't know romanian (I guess?) they thought the referee was using a common racial insult word to point to him, especially when he was telling the referee to "punish" him.
Then the storm started and no explanation, even if fully legitimate (not discussing here if it's or not), can calm it down when it starts. In the field or in social media.
My opinion (I'm not in the referee's head so here is what I interpret):
It was not racism. It was unprofessional and maybe rude.
He had no intent to hurt or insult the person because he was black, all he wanted to do was to identify the person and he picked the fastest/simplest physical trait to help with that.
Regardless of his intent, now the social media will burn him down, he's finished.
Post-scriptum comment:
I think people should really come together to decide what words are acceptable or not. A physical trait is just a physical trait and like any trait it can be useful to use in several scenarios (yes, really).
In this case many people are lumped together in this group of "black people" regardless of who they are and where they come from, and this is not only done by "white people" (also whatever that is).
So is there any word we can use that is never offensive? "From african descent" is not very good anyway as "black people" also exist outside of Africa.
You (maybe not you but most people) would obviously say the white guy if he was the only white guy surrounded by dark skinned guys. Its what most people would naturally say. With the same intent as the tall guy if he was a head above everyone. Or the red haired one etc or the one with glasses. You would pick the easiest to spot identifier.
It’s not about the word, it’s about how you use it. What’s the context of how you use it. He didn’t use it as racial abuse.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't understood that he was claiming it's ambiguous. Or what makes you think he did?
Well I am happy this is blowing over. Romanians have been called gypsies by all of europe their whole lives but no one ever cared because duh, they are romanians. So I don't really expect anything to happen here either because europeans (including turks) are allowed to shit on romanians. Think it's written somewhere in the EU constitution.
I do love when the race chat spills over into the football forum 
We are, hopefully, moving towards a reality where skin colour isn't treated differently from hair colour or the colour of the shirt someone happens to be wearing on a particular day, i.e. as an utterly superficial trait.
Even in that reality, however, it might be necessary to actually refer to skin colour - in cases where someone has to be described, for identification purposes.
Currently, we seem to be at a stage where the aversion to mentioning a pretty obvious aspect of a person's superficial appearance becomes...yes, what? Comical?
Even in that reality, however, it might be necessary to actually refer to skin colour - in cases where someone has to be described, for identification purposes.
Currently, we seem to be at a stage where the aversion to mentioning a pretty obvious aspect of a person's superficial appearance becomes...yes, what? Comical?
Last edited:
Yep
Carlton Cole, meanwhile, tried to explain things from Coltescu’s perspective using an example in a fictional scenario.
If you’re trying to describe someone and you have a bunch of white people in front of you and there’s only one black person and I’m asked ‘Which one was it?’ All of a sudden, I’d probably say ‘the black guy’ because that’s the most obvious thing to say”, the former West Ham and Chelsea striker told Wednesday’s talkSPORT Breakfast.
“It describes the person quite quick, but I understand how it was said and I don’t know if [Sebastian Coltescu] said it to cause division. It all depends on how the person receiving it and the people who heard it perceive it, so it’s a really difficult conversation.
“I know it has been described as racism, but there are other racist incidents that could be talked about more than that one, but where do you draw the line?
“I think a lot of it is to do with education as all of us in a human society need to know what’s racist and what’s not and I don’t think we’re getting that at the moment.
Sinclair
There’s a grey area people need to understand. It’s a language thing and I think there’s a language barrier as well.”
Former England midfielder Trevor Sinclair joined White and Jordan to point out the fact a debate was had on the side of the pitch before coming to the decision to leave was important.
“For me, the term used I don’t find derogatory, but it shows how very sensitive race is at the moment,” he said.
Barnes
Responding to a follower saying there are “are many ways to identify someone without referring to race,” Barnes wrote: “If they are the ONLY white person in a room or group… THEY ARE… how else would YOU describe the ONLY white person or BLACK person in a group?”
When put to Barnes that an official should have asked for the name of the player, Barnes continued to defend the officials.
Barnes said: ‘The ref doesnt know who to ask, the 4th official has to tell the ref which one to approach so he tells him to approach ‘the black one’ .. then the ref may ask his name and send him off.. the 4th officials job is JUST to identify him.. not ask his name.”
I fully anticipate an article from the Guardian stating that Cole, Sinclair and Barnes are suffering from "internalised racism" by accepting being identified as "the black one" since this was their 'likely' experience growing up
If you’re trying to describe someone and you have a bunch of white people in front of you and there’s only one black person and I’m asked ‘Which one was it?’ All of a sudden, I’d probably say ‘the black guy’ because that’s the most obvious thing to say”, the former West Ham and Chelsea striker told Wednesday’s talkSPORT Breakfast.
“It describes the person quite quick, but I understand how it was said and I don’t know if [Sebastian Coltescu] said it to cause division. It all depends on how the person receiving it and the people who heard it perceive it, so it’s a really difficult conversation.
“I know it has been described as racism, but there are other racist incidents that could be talked about more than that one, but where do you draw the line?
“I think a lot of it is to do with education as all of us in a human society need to know what’s racist and what’s not and I don’t think we’re getting that at the moment.
Sinclair
There’s a grey area people need to understand. It’s a language thing and I think there’s a language barrier as well.”
Former England midfielder Trevor Sinclair joined White and Jordan to point out the fact a debate was had on the side of the pitch before coming to the decision to leave was important.
“For me, the term used I don’t find derogatory, but it shows how very sensitive race is at the moment,” he said.
Barnes
Responding to a follower saying there are “are many ways to identify someone without referring to race,” Barnes wrote: “If they are the ONLY white person in a room or group… THEY ARE… how else would YOU describe the ONLY white person or BLACK person in a group?”
When put to Barnes that an official should have asked for the name of the player, Barnes continued to defend the officials.
Barnes said: ‘The ref doesnt know who to ask, the 4th official has to tell the ref which one to approach so he tells him to approach ‘the black one’ .. then the ref may ask his name and send him off.. the 4th officials job is JUST to identify him.. not ask his name.”
I fully anticipate an article from the Guardian stating that Cole, Sinclair and Barnes are suffering from "internalised racism" by accepting being identified as "the black one" since this was their 'likely' experience growing up
But context matters. White people have not been discriminated against in most societies. Therefore, my opinion is this:
Clearly, not all black people agree with this sentiment (as has been raised here multiple times), and I'm not saying they should. But many do, and I think that should take priority when choosing the language we use - especially since it is not difficult to describe people without reference to skin. (Or, for that matter, and unrelated to skin colour, to bodily features which might be considered negative for whatever reason.) I mean, even if there were a group of identical quadruplets with identical clothing, we'd find a way to single out a specific one among them.
I do agree, btw, that among the racist shit happening on and around European football fields, it's a pity it's this relatively minor incident that's getting all the outcry. It risks reducing the discussion to silliness, or giving some people the ammunition to come out and say 'see, it's all snowflakes, racism isn't a real issue'.
Referring to someone as being black is sometimes taboo.
I think Ba was angry on a more prideful level because perhaps he felt the referee should know who the hell he is. He is Pierre Webo! not 'some black guy'
Last edited:
But he wasn't refering to Demba Ba as the black guy in the first place. It was the Assistant Manager/coach?
It's sometimes difficult for people to understand how it feels. When you look foreign or out of place sometimes people will act in an awkward way, they will do things that they won't do otherwise it's as if you didn't matter, as if you had no consciouness and when you are the target it doesn't feel right. In this case, it doesn't seem like a case of racism but simply rudeness, you don't keep saying "that black guy" when you are at hearing distance of that person, similarly you wouldn't say "that fat guy", it wasn't needed and it lacks tact. The person at the receiving end knows that you are talking about them, they also know that you made no effort to talk to them or gain information about them before doing so.
Yeah. changed it
Agree with this especially since at the end of the day it's a professional environment.
Damn straight!
If someone kept referring to me as "the black guy" over and over and I heard them I would be annoyed that they didn't bother finding out my name. I'd let it go once to twice initially
I'm just a simple "giaour".
Nothing on being a Kemalist.
Really? I think what he said was wrong, simply that there have been worse incidents where the players could have done something like this but didn't. From what I understand this seems to be more of a misunderstanding that a outright racist incident.
Its been funny seeing guys tripping over themselves to say black people overreact etc etc yet when o have presented real life examples and my life experience I haven't had one reply from someone with an attempt to understand. Or no one seeing the anger from demba ba and the assistant to see people are actually in pain. That's how you know alot of people genuinely don't want things to change at all.
I feel this is being over reacted. We’re in very sensitive times though and anything can be perceived as racist even if it very much so is not.
I think yesterday was a big miscommunication but the way things are in the world right now I am not surprised people’s feelings were hurt.
I can understand both sides on this incident Tbh.
I think yesterday was a big miscommunication but the way things are in the world right now I am not surprised people’s feelings were hurt.
I can understand both sides on this incident Tbh.
Yeah if the ref would come out and explain and apologize I'd be fine with it.
I absolutely understand that Ba or wome were fuming. It's just no need for social media to pile on the official and crucify him for sth he didnt intend to do.
Shouldn't use a racial description in the face. I would mind if my colleague told another colleague "the asian guy will handle this" or if my boss said "hi asian guy come over". But if a colleague tells the delivery guy "yeah the asian guy there" just to be efficient I wouldnt mind and even if I did I can also understand why he described me like that. but then again it's a football pitch not a business setting.
So I agree they should all be more careful and I hope they've learned to be more sensitive. Next time better to avoid this in such a setting.
I feel this topic just like the Cavani topic has a bit of a feeling of enforcing cultures because the english term n** is related to other non-abusive words that just sound similar and also that the Anglo American (or western liberal worldview) is enforced upon others who maybe dont share this view. Maybe in Romania, russia, Poland or japan it's perfectly fine to describe people as black white yellow... so theoretically we could also ask you or black americans or black brits to understand that in the wider world people in Romania or japan just refer to black people as black, not? Who's right who's wrong? But obviously you'll think you are right.
To go further to make the point, not that I advocate for it. The n-word and the taboo of using racial markers is mainly in the liberal west... go to asia and some people will use the n-word (and not some local translation but literally the n-word). They dont mean anything bad and have nothing to do with police brutality or slavery. So why not also understand this wider world.
I think with calmer heads, it could have been avoided. At the end of the day, if you are looking to educate people you must understand anothers ignorance or language at times or perhaps even our own. Racism is self serving. It's like a fire. You have to deny it oxygen. Maybe we want to have these discussions that go no where because they get too heated. We can scream at one another to make our point or we can be calm and you know let he without sin cast the first stone. We're all guilty at times (of ignorance or whatever), so we all know it don't help when people shout at us. But again we're in this cycle. Got to stop this.
If the ref made a comment or gesture that was obvious - that's a different story. We all can imagine the junk that's spoken on a football pitch or at a ground.
If the ref made a comment or gesture that was obvious - that's a different story. We all can imagine the junk that's spoken on a football pitch or at a ground.
He'd actually be told he's a MARXIST by the same people who said it then and who moan about "wokeness" today.
The first thing any anti-racism campaigns are labelled with as a smear is Marxist.
There are really big issues with "woke" virtue signaling but in this incident you have cultural connotations, language, context and a great deal of issues to untangle.
As an official he should have not said it. I don't think he is racist but the subtext is that again, as an official, he had 50 ways of identifying the person he was referring to.
Wouldn't say that's necessarily the right analogy for yesterday though - we're talking about a handful of people seated socially distanced for the coaching staff.
Not to say that proves racist intent, but that it was at least lazy and unnecessary to identify the guy by race.
This also reported as what the 4th official said:
Coltescu is alleged to have pointed out Webo to Hategan by saying: “The black one over there. Go and check who he is. The black one over there, it’s not possible to act like that.”
Let's see if that true/accurately translated, but quite frankly that does not sound professional in the slightest.
This misunderstanding line you keep peddling is clearly the hill you’re going to die on. You’ve been at it all day. Why? Why are you so bothered on convincing people this was nothing racist and only a simple misunderstanding?
Why are you so keen on undermining Pierre and Demba’s position? As if you, as a white man, know the situation better than those who were actually there. It’s both laughable, and disturbing. Those who were actually in a moment where they felt they were discriminated against, simply misunderstood it because some white person on Redcafe said so, and won’t stop saying so.
Describing this scenario as a hill Demba and Pierre are choosing to die on is diabolical.
A case of overreaction imo. I guess he is subjected to a lot of racism in that racist country and maybe in life in general so he could well be a bit extra sensitive about these things. The world is at boiling point on racist issues so the line is blurred. I just hope we can get to at point in the future where things will settle down and this will not be considered racist by anyone in this context.
Last edited:
That is definitely rude. Although I wonder if he (foolishly) assumed what he was saying would only be understood by the ref, as they were speaking Romanian? They had probably got used to speaking to each other during games without being understood by anyone in earshot.
You keep doing it.
In this case what you think is irrelevant.
A man was referred to simply based on his race & didn’t like it but you want to talk about ‘worse incidents’ as if there’s a ranking system which is honestly ridiculous.
You’re criticising them reacting a certain way because you deem this situation better [you know the opposite of ‘worse’] than others.
How would MLK get told he's a marxist? I don't remember him openly speaking about it or telling people to tear down statues...
I get where you're coming from but i'm interested to know more. I know he thought white people where devils when he was younger but changed his mind over time. That's hearsay on my part though...
I support both teams reactions fully. End of story.
So Webo, called the refs gypsies, was about to get red carded and then went mental because he thought the 4th official said « negro» but he said the romanian word for black?
IF thats the case, Webo should be banned for a long long time. This case in general is absurd
IF thats the case, Webo should be banned for a long long time. This case in general is absurd
Yeah, the lack of fans and noise in the stadium probably has a role in that situation but the main issue is the lack of awareness because one of the picture that I have seen show that they were basically at Istanbul's bench.
Clear case of overreaction imo by Demba Ba. We dont have to agree
I mean again my position I have said. He was ignorant and unprofessional and most likely didn't mean to offend. But should know or should be educated better by UEFA
“The black one” sounds terrible. Similar to one of my own pet hates (often used in Ireland) the collective term for black people as “blacks”. It’s depersonalising and offensive. If you replace that phrase with “the black guy” in the above quote it sounds way less offensive. Which might be a fairer translation. We’d need a native Romanian speaker to give some clarity on this.
I'm surprised you choose to engage with someone who uses the term "snowflake". In my experience, it is a waste of brain cells 100% of the time.
It's ridiculous to try and act like there shouldn't be some sort of "ranking system", to use your term, and to imply that every single example of possible racism is equal in severity to every other.