Racism incident in PSG v Istanbul match

[Berbaclass]

This misunderstanding line you keep peddling is clearly the hill you’re going to die on. You’ve been at it all day. Why? Why are you so bothered on convincing people this was nothing racist and only a simple misunderstanding?

Why are you so keen on undermining Pierre and Demba’s position? As if you, as a white man, know the situation better than those who were actually there. It’s both laughable, and disturbing. Those who were actually in a moment where they felt they were discriminated against, simply misunderstood it because some white person on Redcafe said so, and won’t stop saying so.

Describing this scenario as a hill Demba and Pierre are choosing to die on is diabolical.

I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. Everyone can make their mind up by themselves but we are on a four after all and the whole point is to discuss.

I am a white man and I have no idea what it's like to be racially abused and have no intention to offend or upset anybody with my comments. I believe what happened was wrong. Maybe I did not communicate that in the most eloquent way or you have taken issue to something I have said but I fully support what the players did.

I believe racisim in any form should be stamped out from the game and life in general.

I'm not going to comment any further and just wait for all the facts to be said from the impending investigation. If anyone is guilty of racism they should be punished of course.

 

[DoomSlayer]

Nothing on being a Kemalist.

Ah, a man of culture.

I'd say both my original statement and your sarcastic reply are true. I certainly wasn't offended by what you said. You must know perfectly well how your country has affected my nation for the last 7 centuries, so to say that we are "salty" about it would be a huge understatement.

 

[Berbaclass]

It's ridiculous to try and act like there shouldn't be some sort of "ranking system", to use your term, and to imply that every single example of possible racism is equal in severity to every other.

That was simply not my intention. I was just echoing Micah Richards comments. Who I agreed with.

 

[shaky]

That was simply not my intention. I was just echoing Micah Richards comments. Who I agreed with.

I agree with those comments too. I was directing my last post at someone else.

 

[Berbaclass]

I agree with those comments too. I was directing my last post at someone else.

Fair enough. Everyone else is having a go at me so

 

[Zlatan 7]

It's sometimes difficult for people to understand how it feels. When you look foreign or out of place sometimes people will act in an awkward way, they will do things that they won't do otherwise it's as if you didn't matter, as if you had no consciouness and when you are the target it doesn't feel right. In this case, it doesn't seem like a case of racism but simply rudeness, you don't keep saying "that black guy" when you are at hearing distance of that person, similarly you wouldn't say "that fat guy", it wasn't needed and it lacks tact. The person at the receiving end knows that you are talking about them, they also know that you made no effort to talk to them or gain information about them before doing so.

I think is where a lot of the debate is lost or misunderstood.

you’re right we wouldn’t say that fat guy, I seen a post saying how wrong it is as you wouldn’t say fat, ugly and a few more but what is trying to be said is why are people using those examples making out as if black is bad when it’s not and for sure we’d say that tall, blonde etc person in earshot with no worry.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Referring to someone as being black is sometimes taboo.

No doubt - but it surely has to depend on the context.

Using skin colour to identify someone - in a group of several people - where that characteristic stands out, is...yes, what do we call it? If that's racism, we've reached the point of utter absurdity.

 

[Olly Gunnar Solskjær]

I was trying to think of a situation to compare it to that we could see what we would do.

Let's say you were in a shop of some kind where you wait around for your order to be brought out, and there are a few other people waiting. If the person who works there brings out one of the orders and they say - "Who ordered xxx?" and you know the person who it was for so decide to be a very helpful customer.

Would you feel totally fine with coming out with, "It was that black guy over there", or "It was the Asian bloke"?

Personally I would absolutely not say that, and if I was there while someone else said it I'd be doing a mental "Oof" while sneakily looking round the room to see everyone else's reactions.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I was trying to think of a situation to compare it to that we could see what we would do.

Let's say you were in a shop of some kind where you wait around for your order to be brought out, and there are a few other people waiting. If the person who works there brings out one of the orders and they say - "Who ordered xxx?" and you know the person who it was for so decide to be a very helpful customer.

Would you feel totally fine with coming out with, "It was that black guy over there", or "It was the Asian bloke"?

Personally I would absolutely not say that, and if I was there while someone else said it I'd be doing a mental "Oof" while sneakily looking round the room to see everyone else's reactions.

Yeah, fair point. There’s something about using it in earshot of the person you’re describing that feels wrong.

How about if you and your friend were describing a new guy at work who shares a name with someone else of a different ethnicity.

“Have you met Paul yet? He’s a nice lad.”

“Which Paul? The black guy?”

Would that bother you at all? Would you think less of your friend for describing Paul in that way?

 

[MikeKing]

Important to walk off there I think, even if it might be sort of harsh on 'the guy', and I think especially because he is a ref and has authority in this setting it complicates the situation... he can't act with authority after that mistake so then everyone needed to stand up to it and they did. To quote Slim Charles from the wire, "If it's a lie then we fight on that lie, but we got to fight" Ref is probably not a racist, but I think it's a good thing it happened anyways and hopefully everyone will get their satisfaction in the aftermath, especially the dude who was offended.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

It's ridiculous to try and act like there shouldn't be some sort of "ranking system", to use your term.

And another one reveals himself. . .

Remove the term as it’s irrelevant, there is no such thing as ‘better’ or ‘worse’ race discrimination. Other isms are never subverted to this degree so it’s telling when this issue pops up on here.

You’re in over your head but I’ve got a few hours this evening so let’s play. “ranking system”, “better”, “worse”; are you saying some racism is more acceptable than others? As it’s ‘ridiculous act like there shouldn't be some sort of "ranking system"’ - can you explain how you’d rank, rate [whatever word moves you on from true term] one incident versus another.

Notice I haven’t even said the fourth official was racist in last nights incident but do go on. . .

 

[Tapori]

How would MLK get told he's a marxist? I don't remember him openly speaking about it or telling people to tear down statues...

I get where you're coming from but i'm interested to know more. I know he thought white people where devils when he was younger but changed his mind over time. That's hearsay on my part though...

Appreciate it. Probably worth another thread.
Simply check out the coverage of the time in the US press and how the FBI and CIA viewed him; a domestic terrorist spreading communist propaganda. No, I didn't get this from Sarkar, who simply pointed out a historical fact recently on tv vs Tice.

I may remind you if you'd allow, that the Black Civil Rights US era was far more tumultuous and was way above the threat of pulling down statues; Remember many were inspired by the "Any means necessary," side of Malcolm X's philosophy inspired by Nat Turner.
There were many groups and factions and ideologies of the left and Black Solidarity and emancipation in the US.
Some translated to the UK some did not.

The fact that was far worse than pulling down statues - a practice that I don't necessarily condone but will point out the selective joy when Saddam's statue was pulled down, by many establishment commentators in the West - was that in MLKs era, the black liberation movement had a substantive tough intelligence of leadership that exercised the right to bear arms.

This is also why to some degree the establishment placated UK soldiers returning from WW1 and 2 to a degree: Many young military/armed men with a cause.

The red scare and McCarthyism was and has been a potent tactic to further stigmatize and disparage anti-racist movements and leaders.
This doesn't mean you can't critique the modern left or modern liberalism or marxism, but it's really interesting when companies and corporations linked to the Institute of Economic Affairs and the Koch brothers et al, use the same attack lines which are subsumed into the social media news algorithms and then fed back by incredibly sincere people.

I'll put away my soapbox and get back to figuring out how Ole can fix our defence: By any means necessary.

 

[Fener1907]

Ah, a man of culture.

I'd say both my original statement and your sarcastic reply are true. I certainly wasn't offended by what you said. You must know perfectly well how your country has affected my nation for the last 7 centuries, so to say that we are "salty" about it would be a huge understatement.

The statement being:

"Turkey is one of the most racist countries out there."

Would you care to elaborate on this? It's an unequivocal statement that at least deserves to be expanded on.

 

[Tapori]

John Barnes always gives an interesting take.
The hate towards Micah Richard's quite composed opinion on a developing situation, has been disgraceful.

 

[Olly Gunnar Solskjær]

I don't think that's really equivalent. In that case you can easily point to whoever it is because you and the person working there can both see everyone in front of them.

Different case if you're talking on a headset about someone from a group of people that one of you cant see.

But he wasn't exactly far away, and he was pointing right at him anyway

Yeah, fair point. There’s something about using it in earshot of the person you’re describing that feels wrong.

How about if you and your friend were describing a new guy at work who shares a name with someone else of a different ethnicity.

“Have you met Paul yet? He’s a nice lad.”

“Which Paul? The black guy?”

Would that bother you at all? Would you think less of your friend for describing Paul in that way?

I'd wonder why he didn't say, "The new guy?"

Nah but seriously, if it was a friend and I knew what kind of person he was, in that situation I might not think anything of it especially if it was an informal setting.

I'd probably think differently though if he said it during a meeting where Paul was present while pointing right at him

 

[Tapori]

We are, hopefully, moving towards a reality where skin colour isn't treated differently from hair colour or the colour of the shirt someone happens to be wearing on a particular day, i.e. as an utterly superficial trait.

Even in that reality, however, it might be necessary to actually refer to skin colour - in cases where someone has to be described, for identification purposes.

Currently, we seem to be at a stage where the aversion to mentioning a pretty obvious aspect of a person's superficial appearance becomes...yes, what? Comical?

Have you watched the experiment where a tough teacher for decades, takes willing volunteers and treats the well or harsh based on the colour of their eyes? Controversial but very eye opening and fascinating if you want to watch and see how it might be viewed over a lifetime of such treatment.

 

[Nani Nana]

The statement being:

"Turkey is one of the most racist countries out there."

Would you care to elaborate on this? It's an unequivocal statement that at least deserves to be expanded on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devshirme

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Ottoman_Empire#East_African_slaves

You're welcome

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I was trying to think of a situation to compare it to that we could see what we would do.

Let's say you were in a shop of some kind where you wait around for your order to be brought out, and there are a few other people waiting. If the person who works there brings out one of the orders and they say - "Who ordered xxx?" and you know the person who it was for so decide to be a very helpful customer.

Would you feel totally fine with coming out with, "It was that black guy over there", or "It was the Asian bloke"?

Personally I would absolutely not say that, and if I was there while someone else said it I'd be doing a mental "Oof" while sneakily looking round the room to see everyone else's reactions.

In that situation you could easily just point at the person in question - and say: "it was that guy". And in that situation it would indeed sound odd if you made any attempt to describe the person further: "It was the fat bloke there..."

That might be applicable to the situation discussed here - I haven't scrutinized the circumstances. If he could have just pointed his finger at the individual, it would seem unnecessary to add anything (at all) pertaining to his appearance.

 

[Olly Gunnar Solskjær]

In that situation you could easily just point at the person in question - and say: "it was that guy". And in that situation it would indeed sound odd if you made any attempt to describe the person further: "It was the fat bloke there..."

That might be applicable to the situation discussed here - I haven't scrutinized the circumstances. If he could have just pointed his finger at the individual, it would seem unnecessary to add anything (at all) pertaining to his appearance.

Yeah that's what happened last night;

He's closer to him than I would be to the other customer in the shop in my imaginary scenario.

 

[Fener1907]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devshirme

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Ottoman_Empire#East_African_slaves

You're welcome

These are articles all about Ottoman history, including practices that have been witnessed in numerous other countries.

How does this prove that "Turkey is one of the most racist countries out there"?

 

[Nani Nana]

These are articles all about Ottoman history, including practices that have been witnessed in numerous other countries.

How does this prove that "Turkey is one of the most racist countries out there"?

You're right, Turkey has nothing to do with the Ottoman Empire.

Oh and plenty of countries carried out the Armenian Genocide.

 

[JPRouve]

I think is where a lot of the debate is lost or misunderstood.

you’re right we wouldn’t say that fat guy, I seen a post saying how wrong it is as you wouldn’t say fat, ugly and a few more but what is trying to be said is why are people using those examples making out as if black is bad when it’s not and for sure we’d say that tall, blonde etc person in earshot with no worry.

I actually had a different example but wasn't sure if I should. You wouldn't say "the girl with big assets" if she can hear you.

 

[Stacks]

No doubt - but it surely has to depend on the context.

Using skin colour to identify someone - in a group of several people - where that characteristic stands out, is...yes, what do we call it? If that's racism, we've reached the point of utter absurdity.

I was joking

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I was joking

Sorry!

Hard to tell what's what these days.

 

[markhughes]

I was just thinking about this and I don’t think it’s racist but I would class this as racially insensitive.

It’s a valid description and pointing out an individuals race isn’t racist but the official could have used a little more tact in this situation.

That being said, It seems like the world is obsessed with pronouns/adjectives these days, how we treat an individual and our actions and intentions seem to be an afterthought unfortunately, but that is the way the world is.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

I'm surprised you choose to engage with someone who uses the term "snowflake". In my experience, it is a waste of brain cells 100% of the time.

You're not wrong... Think I was just genuinely surprised that someone on here would actually use it seriously!

 

[Moonwalker]

In that situation you could easily just point at the person in question - and say: "it was that guy". And in that situation it would indeed sound odd if you made any attempt to describe the person further: "It was the fat bloke there..."

That might be applicable to the situation discussed here - I haven't scrutinized the circumstances. If he could have just pointed his finger at the individual, it would seem unnecessary to add anything (at all) pertaining to his appearance.

Whereas if you are addressing a certain Neil Custis, something would just seem jarringly amiss if you didn't supplement it with "you there, fat man!" Context, innit?

 

[Fener1907]

You're right, Turkey has nothing to do with the Ottoman Empire.

Oh and plenty of countries carried out the Armenian Genocide.

By your logic, every single country should be held accountable for their colonial pasts (and more) with the perspective that literally nothing has changed in those countries.

To keep using your logic, is Germany one of the most racist countries out there?

 

[Nani Nana]

By your logic, every single country should be held accountable for their colonial pasts (and more) with the perspective that literally nothing has changed in those countries.

To keep using your logic, is Germany one of the most racist countries out there?

Yes and yes, every country should be held accountable for its colonial past.

And I do believe, having lived there, that most Germans would agree to their country labelled as racist, exclusively because of 1933-1945 and regardless of their history of tolerance leading to the 20th century (a far cry from the Ottomans' track record).

The difference is Germany's acceptance and Turkey's denial.

 

[Zlatan 7]

I actually had a different example but wasn't sure if I should. You wouldn't say "the girl big assets" if she can hear you.

Of course I wouldn’t, because it makes no sense
Seriously though I can totally see where it’s wrong and reading the question above about being in a store I am right with that poster and certainly wouldn’t shout it out in an open shop, but then the next question by pogue is something I probably would do and with total innocence not thinking it’s wrong. It’s a weird one

 

[JPRouve]

Of course I wouldn’t, because it makes no sense
Seriously though I can totally see where it’s wrong and reading the question above about being in a store I am right with that poster and certainly wouldn’t shout it out in an open shop, but then the next question by pogue is something I probably would do and with total innocence not thinking it’s wrong. It’s a weird one

I forgot an important word.

 

[DoomSlayer]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devshirme

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Ottoman_Empire#East_African_slaves

You're welcome

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batak_massacre

This as well.

 

[USREDEVIL]

It wasn't racist but as other said not very sensitive. Context matters. There is an anti-racist movement in football and to refer to someone as the black or the black guy is not only not necessary, but pretty tone deaf. Not sure they should have abandoned the game, but ok.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah that's what happened last night;

He's closer to him than I would be to the other customer in the shop in my imaginary scenario.

I don’t think that’s the moment where he says the offending phrase. There’s video footage earlier in the thread where you can heat him say it and it’s when there’s a big scrum of people milling round together. That’s how I remember it anyway. Will try to dig it out.

 

[Fener1907]

Yes and yes, every country should be held accountable for its colonial past.

And I do believe, having lived there, that most Germans would agree to their country labelled as racist, exclusively because of 1933-1945 and regardless of their flawless record of tolerance and openness leading to the 20th century (a far cry from the Ottomans' track record).

"... with the perspective that literally nothing has changed in those countries."

They're quite different questions. The one you answered is a no-brainer, whereas the actual question - if answered yes - says more about the individual making the claim than it does the people they're labeling. If anybody thinks Turkey is the same today as it was during the Ottoman Empire, "no-brainer" once again comes to mind.

Likewise for the Germany question. It wasn't if Germans would consider their country to be racist, it was "Is Germany one of the most racist countries out there?"

It doesn't matter how big the hard-on for the Ottoman Empire is, as it won't change the reality of modern-day Turkey.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

But he wasn't exactly far away, and he was pointing right at him anyway

I'd wonder why he didn't say, "The new guy?"

Nah but seriously, if it was a friend and I knew what kind of person he was, in that situation I might not think anything of it especially if it was an informal setting.

I'd probably think differently though if he said it during a meeting where Paul was present while pointing right at him

Ok, let’s assume there are two new guys called Paul!

I’m genuinely curious here because we have posters like @Cheimoon saying they’re raising their kids never to mention the colour of someone’s skin in any circumstances. Which seems absolutely ludicrous to me. Do we need a new name for the Black Lives Matter movement?!?

 

[JPRouve]

I don’t think that’s the moment where he says the offending phrase. There’s video footage earlier in the thread where you can heat him say it and it’s when there’s a big scrum of people milling round together. That’s how I remember it anyway. Will try to dig it out.

I have it but it's from RMC so I don't think that you can see it but the 4th referee is essentially in the coaching box at maybe 4 or 5 meters from Webo and pointing at him while the referee is still on the field and walking towards him.

 

[Stacks]

Sorry!

Hard to tell what's what these days.

I apologise. I have a peculiar sense of humour

 

[Nani Nana]

"... with the perspective that literally nothing has changed in those countries."

They're quite different questions. The one you answered is a no-brainer, whereas the actual question - if answered yes - says more about the individual making the claim than it does the people they're labeling. If anybody thinks Turkey is the same today as it was during the Ottoman Empire, "no-brainer" once again comes to mind.

Likewise for the Germany question. It wasn't if Germans would consider their country to be racist, it was "Is Germany one of the most racist countries out there?"

It doesn't matter how big the hard-on for the Ottoman Empire is, as it won't change the reality of modern-day Turkey.

I shortened the proposition because even in that format it is too much to bear for most Turks.

As for Germany, even Germans agree, let alone foreigners with little knowledge of the country's history beyond WW2.

No qualms saying Turkey has changed for the better, although recent foreign policy actions suggest otherwise. Even if so, definitely not enough to take the moral high ground on racism issues.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Yeah, fair point. There’s something about using it in earshot of the person you’re describing that feels wrong.

How about if you and your friend were describing a new guy at work who shares a name with someone else of a different ethnicity.

“Have you met Paul yet? He’s a nice lad.”

“Which Paul? The black guy?”

Would that bother you at all? Would you think less of your friend for describing Paul in that way?

Hm.

I think I'd be more comfortable if the second guy said:

Which Paul? The guy with somewhat more melanin than the other Paul? Not that there's anything wrong with more - or even less - melanin...in fact, forget what I said. What I meant was: the guy who's slightly taller than the other Pau...no, wait - scratch that. I meant the guy who sometimes wears a black...I mean, not black...possibly very dark blue coat...no, wait, by "very dark" I mean not very light...not that light is better! Just...I mean, no - sorry, who is Paul? And what do you mean by "lad"? How do you know he identifies as a "lad", you prejudiced twat (not that there's anything wrong with twats or prejudice...)