Racism in Italy - even anti-racism is filled with racism

kouroux said:
Who's we again ? Who do you speak for ? I never meant to have a discussion with you,you just slithered yourself into it :lol: Do piss off
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kouroux said:
I'm not upset at all
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kouroux said:
You really seem to think I'm interested in discussing :lol: I really don't. I said my peace
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kouroux said:
I know the type of people I dislike and those who I avoid at all cost.
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AFC NimbleThumb said:
Mate just enjoy the game
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Oh we’ve just conceded.
 
kouroux said:
I despise people who make racist claims based on feck all. It hurts the genuine victims of it. A lot of people suffer from it but when you have clueless people who cry about it at the first slight perceived on them, it's detriemental to the cause
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I've only been on this forum a minute, but this is genuinely one of the most disturbing post's I've seen. .
 
Unconscious racism is a thing, Western society is mostly unconsciously racist, this starts even from childhood, the people an infant sees in position of economic, political and social power ,he will unconsciously assume that these group is 'better/superior', in adulthood if he's in a position to choose between a person from the group who he had associated with 'better/superior ' and another group, he will unconsciously choose the 'better/superior' group without even realizing it, or being 'racist'. Some black people have also internalized this social dynamic without even realizing.A black person saying that something is not racist, doesn't mean that it's not.

This may have also tilted the decision to choose Kvara over Osimhen.

The aforementioned reasons are prevalent in every day life in the west. Police perception of and treatment of black people, employment, promotion, grades and grading in academic institutions, the 'muting ' of the contributions of black people in various fields of endeavour from science to sports.

These forms of racism are more problematic and difficult to decipher than someone shouting some racist slurs on the streets.

Dismissing people's racism claims is a form of gaslighting, and a lack if knowledge that apart from overt racism, racism can be subtle, unconscious and internalized. It also very people for both the 'perpetrator ' and the ' victim ',not to recognize a racist behaviour ,that still doesn't make it not racist.
 
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redDNA said:
Unconscious racism is a thing, Western society is mostly unconsciously racist, this starts even from childhood, the people an infant sees in position of economic, political and social power ,he will unconsciously assume that these group is 'better/superior', in adulthood if he's in a position to choose between a person from the group who he had associated with 'better/superior ' and another group, he will unconsciously choose the 'better/superior' group without even realizing it, or being 'racist'. Some black people have also internalized this social dynamic without even realizing.A black person saying that something is not racist, doesn't mean that it's not.

This may have also tilted the decision to choose Kvara over Osimhen.

The aforementioned reasons are prevalent in every day life in the west. Police perception of and treatment of black people, employment, promotion, grades and grading in academic institutions, the 'muting ' of the contributions of black people in various fields of endeavour from science to sports.

These forms of racism are more problematic and difficult to decipher than someone shouting some racist slurs on the streets.

Dismissing people's racism claims is a form of gaslighting, and a lack if knowledge that apart from overt racism, racism can be subtle, unconscious and internalized. It also very people for both the 'perpetrator ' and the ' victim ',not to recognize a racist behaviour ,that still doesn't make it not racist.
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Many intelligent points. Again, I don't know enough about Serie A's treatment of its black stars and I'm not saying it's racist to draw a link between Kvara and Maradona rather than VO and Maradona. I like both players a lot. But what you've said here for the most part surely can't be debated by any fair minded person.
 
Ludens the Red said:
It definitely isn’t. It’s not even particularly controversial unless you live a heavily sheltered life.
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I worry about the future when I read posts like those. If that's the most disturbing thing you've read, then you're guaranteed a life of mental anguish and stress.
 
The Original said:
Seeing race is not racism. Races are a fact. Treating races differently is racism.
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I actually think this opinion will eventually be viewed as racist. Seeing skin colour will be the same as seeing hair colour in the future - it will have zero weight, it'll just be a visual distinction.

And it's not people seeing race I took issue with, it was people seeing racism in everything. You're point presumably wasn't aimed at me.
 
Ludens the Red said:
It definitely isn’t. It’s not even particularly controversial unless you live a heavily sheltered life.
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Apologies. I didn't realise you were the authority on what I do/ don't find disturbing, and the reasons for doing so. As a poster pointed out earlier, this is part of a very nuanced and larger picture. Not saying the situation is racism per se, but the dismissive attitude towards conversation can be very counter productive.
 
Very good article on an italian website about this issue. It's in italian though so not sure if anybody is interested. Sums up the situation pretty well

Honestly, very disappointing comments by Gasperini and Allegri in the wake of Atalanta-Juventus(which was actually stopped because of the racist abuse!!!)
 
giorno said:
Very good article on an italian website about this issue. It's in italian though so not sure if anybody is interested. Sums up the situation pretty well

Honestly, very disappointing comments by Gasperini and Allegri in the wake of Atalanta-Juventus(which was actually stopped because of the racist abuse!!!)
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Serie A has a history of brushing racist abuse under the carpet and even victim blaming (see Bonucci re; Moise Kean). I seldom see that league and individuals within it react responsibly to a case of racial abuse. Allegri's comments re; Vlahovic are not the worst I've seen. It's not what I would have said If I was Vlahovic's coach. It's a bit cold and lacking in empathy but he does speak against it and condemn it, which I appreciate is the lowest of low bars but he does say it needs to be shut down.
 
Player nick named Kvaradona and is the main playmaker for Napoli depicted receiving the crown from Maradona (the main playmaker for Napoli when they last one the league)... I mean...
I don't think racism needs to be brought up here? There is racism in Seria A and Italy as whole and that league does not deal with it well, but this instance....?

Anyway Osimhen is a top player, and a very important one in the title win, but there is no need to diminish the impact Kvaratskhelia had and the obvious links to Maradona (playstyle, playmaking etc) that has been referenced all season

A player can be credited without discrediting another.
 
WeePat said:
Serie A has a history of brushing racist abuse under the carpet and even victim blaming (see Bonucci re; Moise Kean). I seldom see that league and individuals within it react responsibly to a case of racial abuse. Allegri's comments re; Vlahovic are not the worst I've seen. It's not what I would have said If I was Vlahovic's coach. It's a bit cold and lacking in empathy but he does speak against it and condemn it, which I appreciate is the lowest of low bars but he does say it needs to be shut down.
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Was it Allegri who said Kean shouldn’t have responded to racist taunts?

Mourinho had to tell the Roma fans recently to stop racially abusing Stankovic. I’m not sure if any punishment has been handed out yet
 
Lay said:
Was it Allegri who said Kean shouldn’t have responded to racist taunts?

Mourinho had to tell the Roma fans recently to stop racially abusing Stankovic. I’m not sure if any punishment has been handed out yet
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Yeah he said something along those lines, which is a terrible way to respond to a young player on his team suffering racial abuse.
 
Libero_of_Yore said:
Apologies. I didn't realise you were the authority on what I do/ don't find disturbing, and the reasons for doing so. As a poster pointed out earlier, this is part of a very nuanced and larger picture. Not saying the situation is racism per se, but the dismissive attitude towards conversation can be very counter productive.
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Well if you want to look at the bigger picture @kouroux is definitely not a poster who attempts to dismiss attitudes towards certain conversations and he wasn’t doing it in this thread. He expressed an opinion about not finding this particular incident to be one of which had racist undertones. He was then gaslighted by a few posters for it. One of the responses he received was to be questioned that did he despise ‘Black people that post about a widely admitted racist organisation /leagues biases?’. I thought that was a bit naughty tbh…

Considering what began this conversation was a single tweet of one person who works for Napoli football club posting a mock up crowning picture of one of their stars of the season, it seems strange for this to be some sort of benchmark in regards to claiming someone is being “dismissive” towards racism.

As for the actual comment we’re talking about, it’s difficult to see why someone would find it ‘disturbing’. He said he doesn’t like people incorrectly painting themselves as victims of racism because it’s detrimental to those who actually suffer racism. Which is a fair and very real remark, unless as I said you’ve been sheltered from it.

Anyway sticking to the topic I was in Naples for four days over the weekend they drew with Salertina and went to the match. (I’m black and Nigerian) I saw a number of Nigerian flags in the street and in the stadium. There are more pictures of Oshimen around Naples than any other Napoli player, comfortably. I saw several full body Oshimen pop ups around the city, maybe saw two of Kvara. I saw more shirts with Oshimen on the back than any other player. Based on all this I think it would be a stretch to suggest Napoli in general favour Kvara ahead of Oshimen as a footballer because one is white and one is black. That has absolutely nothing to do with any of the other very real racist instances continually tarnishing Serie A. This particular case definitely isn’t one to take up for judgment though….

On the flip side of all this, when out and about in Naples with my white girlfriend I received several unnecessarily long stares and glances. I also had food in a restaurant and questioned why my pizza was soaking in mozzarella water. The response from the waiter was that I was American and did not know neopolitan pizza…. I also saw some graffiti in the middle of the very busy town centre saying ‘go home tourists, get the feck out of here’. There didn’t appear to be any attempt to clean it either……
I was also stopped at least three times and called Ndombele despite looking absolutely nothing like him…


RoyH1 said:
I worry about the future when I read posts like those. If that's the most disturbing thing you've read, then you're guaranteed a life of mental anguish and stress.
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Literally….
 
Camilo said:
I actually think this opinion will eventually be viewed as racist. Seeing skin colour will be the same as seeing hair colour in the future - it will have zero weight, it'll just be a visual distinction.
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I hope so. There’s one race - human.

As people with all the different skin colours are increasingly born anywhere, seeing a skin colour and categorising as ‘other’ isn’t helpful and can be very, very offensive - ‘where you from originally?’ Etc.

You wouldn’t see someone with blonde hair who was born in Italy and start insisting that they’re ’from somewhere else originally’.

So I hope you’re right. It’s where people’s mindsets need to get to in order for us to finally properly turn a corner imo.
 
Cassidy said:
Player nick named Kvaradona and is the main playmaker for Napoli depicted receiving the crown from Maradona (the main playmaker for Napoli when they last one the league)... I mean...
I don't think racism needs to be brought up here? There is racism in Seria A and Italy as whole and that league does not deal with it well, but this instance....?

Anyway Osimhen is a top player, and a very important one in the title win, but there is no need to diminish the impact Kvaratskhelia had and the obvious links to Maradona (playstyle, playmaking etc) that has been referenced all season

A player can be credited without discrediting another.
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Maradona was also the top goalscorer when Napoli won their two titles. Which Kvaratskhelia is not. So really, Maradona was a combination of both players, Kvara's skill (except more so) and VO's charisma and passion (except more so)
 
Andrade said:
Maradona was also the top goalscorer when Napoli won their two titles. Which Kvaratskhelia is not. So really, Maradona was a combination of both players, Kvara's skill (except more so) and VO's charisma and passion (except more so)
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Hes not a combination of both players since he wasn't a striker, there isn't that much similarity between Osimhen and Maradona except the goal record (I'm talking in style of play by the way), Kvara's playstyle is why he is compared to Maradona.

In any case its not a slight on Osimhen or at least I don't see it that way anyway, without even bringing racism into it
 
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Hernandez - BFA said:
100% this. The Maradona link to Kvaratskhelia makes total sense for why they picked him. When I think of Kvaratskhelia, I think of his nickname likened to Maradona. Maradona is their greatest ever player - so the photo makes complete sense.

I am not arguing that there is no racism in Italy, as it clearly rife there especially in the football world. But making a case for it in regards to that photo is just ridiculous, and just screams "finding an issue with anything" type of culture.
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This makes sense to me. Kvara was nicknamed Kvaradona long before Napoli won Serie A. So then the person who had been nicknamed for Maradona all along was pictured in their memes, as well. If I had to guess he got nicknamed for Maradona because of his love for dribbling and taking-on several defenders fearlessly. Osimhen is a wonderful striker, who I hope we sign, but has different play style.

Either way, there's definitely racism in football, including in Serie A, but I don't know if racism had any role here. I doubt Napoli fans lack any love for VO.
 
Andrade said:
I'm aware of that, but he was the top scorer. Who is the top scorer for Napoli this season?
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We don't need to descend into some form of reductive argument here, we all know who the top scorer was but it's also very clear what I am saying.
There has been a clear link from Kvara to Maradona before the league win because of playing style (which is where his nickname came from), there hasn't been one between Osimhen and Maradona and the only one that can be made is being the top scorer.

Had Napoli won the league before with a prolific striker as the main man, then it would be more likely Napoli fans would be comparing Osimhen to that player, its normal
 
NewGlory said:
This makes sense to me. Kvara was nicknamed Kvaradona long before Napoli won Serie A. So then the person who had been nicknamed for Maradona all along was pictured in their memes, as well. If I had to guess he got nicknamed for Maradona because of his love for dribbling and taking-on several defenders fearlessly. Osimhen is a wonderful striker, who I hope we sign, but has different play style.

Either way, there's definitely racism in football, including in Serie A, but I don't know if racism had any role here. I doubt Napoli fans lack any love for VO.
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I don't think they do either. And if you ask me, who is the better footballer between the two, I would say easily Kvaratskhelia.

But it's more that folklore question of 'who is the King of Naples? Is it Osimhen or is it Kvaratskhelia?' Because the 'King of Naples' is definitely what Maradona was, not just because of his genius but because of his spirit and leadership. I can see why people would object to Osimhen not being 'crowned' as it were though I don't necessarily agree or think it matters that much what is in a Serie A tweet. If i were Nigerian I might be more salty about it.
 
Cassidy said:
We don't need to descend into some form of reductive argument here, we all know who the top scorer was but it's also very clear what I am saying.
There has been a clear link from Kvara to Maradona before the league win because of playing style (which is where his nickname came from), there hasn't been one between Osimhen and Maradona and the only one that can be made is being the top scorer.

Had Napoli won the league before with a prolific striker as the main man, then it would be more likely Napoli fans would be comparing Osimhen to that player, its normal
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There is a new mural in the Forcella neighbourhood of Naples that has been placed next to the one of Maradona. It depicts both Kvaratskhelia and Osimhen. This is what I mean about Maradona being both of them, he was the sole talisman back then. This team has two, maybe not 'talismans' but 'stars'. One is the top scorer, the other the top assister. Maradona was both.
 
Andrade said:
There is a new mural in the Forcella neighbourhood of Naples that has been placed next to the one of Maradona. It depicts both Kvaratskhelia and Osimhen. This is what I mean about Maradona being both of them, he was the sole talisman back then. This team has two, maybe not 'talismans' but 'stars'. One is the top scorer, the other the top assister. Maradona was both.
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No one is disagreeing with the fact Napoli has two stars and they had one previously.
The point I made is quite clear
 
WeePat said:
Serie A has a history of brushing racist abuse under the carpet and even victim blaming (see Bonucci re; Moise Kean). I seldom see that league and individuals within it react responsibly to a case of racial abuse. Allegri's comments re; Vlahovic are not the worst I've seen. It's not what I would have said If I was Vlahovic's coach. It's a bit cold and lacking in empathy but he does speak against it and condemn it, which I appreciate is the lowest of low bars but he does say it needs to be shut down.
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But it's all empty talk. Empty gestures. Feck me, the ref freaking run after Vlahovic immediately after the goal to stop him from going under the atalanta ultras and booked him and the ref's coordinator praised him for it :wenger:

Allegri saying players need to ignore racial abuse???? What the feck man...

Won't even get into Gasperini's comments because they're too disgusting and self-explanatory...

Hell, Lukaku only got the red card rescinded because the president of the FA decided to act like a monarch and overruled the refs commission/league/etc...

The juventus stand wasn't closed because apparently the club managed to identify all the individuals responsible(good for them! It does absolutely nothing to kick racism out of the stadiums though) and Lazio ultras - of course - have been guilty of racial abuse in pretty much every game and nothing is fecking done about it...

As you said, the cultute of victim blaming and insistent refusal to actually fight racism for real are so ingrained in our culture - which sadly extends well outside sports - that right now the only real chance we have is for Gravina(president of FA) to take matters into his own hands like with Lukaku. Except he can't do that in most situations because he'd lose the presidency....
 
Ludens the Red said:
Considering what began this conversation was a single tweet of one person who works for Napoli football club
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Post was from the league's account, not Napoli's

I also had food in a restaurant and questioned why my pizza was soaking in mozzarella water. The response from the waiter was that I was American and did not know neopolitan pizza….
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What type of Pizza did you order? Anyways, yeah, the mozzarella they used was fresh, hence the water. As for the rude comment, yeah, that tracks, Neapolitans can be kind of snobbish and obnoxious about pizza, since they invented it. I can tell you that likely had more to do with you not being neapolitan than the color of your skin(though sure, it might have been both)

I also saw some graffiti in the middle of the very busy town centre saying ‘go home tourists, get the feck out of here’. There didn’t appear to be any attempt to clean it either……
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Naples is a pretty unique, idiosyncratic city...it's basically a south american metropolis from a tv drama transplanted in europe, and its people take both pride and issue with it at the same time...

I was also stopped at least three times and called Ndombele despite looking absolutely nothing like him…
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.....white people are bad with faces? :D

(Sorry about that mate)


Btw I think i do get the point another poster made about the tone deafness of the post(@AFC NimbleThumb ?) It's not about "crowning" Kvara, it's the exclusion of Osimhen(and Kim, while we're at it) who is just as deserving of such a post
 
giorno said:
But it's all empty talk. Empty gestures. Feck me, the ref freaking run after Vlahovic immediately after the goal to stop him from going under the atalanta ultras and booked him and the ref's coordinator praised him for it :wenger:

Allegri saying players need to ignore racial abuse???? What the feck man...

Won't even get into Gasperini's comments because they're too disgusting and self-explanatory...

Hell, Lukaku only got the red card rescinded because the president of the FA decided to act like a monarch and overruled the refs commission/league/etc...

The juventus stand wasn't closed because apparently the club managed to identify all the individuals responsible(good for them! It does absolutely nothing to kick racism out of the stadiums though) and Lazio ultras - of course - have been guilty of racial abuse in pretty much every game and nothing is fecking done about it...

As you said, the cultute of victim blaming and insistent refusal to actually fight racism for real are so ingrained in our culture - which sadly extends well outside sports - that right now the only real chance we have is for Gravina(president of FA) to take matters into his own hands like with Lukaku. Except he can't do that in most situations because he'd lose the presidency....
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Very sad
 
The Original said:
Does that make any sense? The context is Napoli winning the league for the first time since Maradona last led them to it 33 years ago. If Kvara won some dribbling award then sure. But this is about being the main man in restoring Napoli to the top. Who had the most goal contributions? Who scored the deciding goal? Victor Osimhen in both cases. So on what basis would Kvara be identified as Maradona's successor? Just for having a similar dribbling style (which he really doesn't)?

I won't go as far as alleging racism on the face of this but it's obvious they've gone out of their way to make some point about Kvara being the face of Napoli when he's not merited it.
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What utter nonsense
 
giorno said:
But it's all empty talk. Empty gestures. Feck me, the ref freaking run after Vlahovic immediately after the goal to stop him from going under the atalanta ultras and booked him and the ref's coordinator praised him for it :wenger:

Allegri saying players need to ignore racial abuse???? What the feck man...

Won't even get into Gasperini's comments because they're too disgusting and self-explanatory...

Hell, Lukaku only got the red card rescinded because the president of the FA decided to act like a monarch and overruled the refs commission/league/etc...

The juventus stand wasn't closed because apparently the club managed to identify all the individuals responsible(good for them! It does absolutely nothing to kick racism out of the stadiums though) and Lazio ultras - of course - have been guilty of racial abuse in pretty much every game and nothing is fecking done about it...

As you said, the cultute of victim blaming and insistent refusal to actually fight racism for real are so ingrained in our culture - which sadly extends well outside sports - that right now the only real chance we have is for Gravina(president of FA) to take matters into his own hands like with Lukaku. Except he can't do that in most situations because he'd lose the presidency....
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Yeah I hear you, it's a bit tone deaf but I guess the standards are so low for Italian football that even mild condemnation from one of the leading voices in that league feels like a step in the right direction.

If the FA president pardoned Lukaku before, it kinda feels like a precedent has been set. He has to rescind Vlahovic's yellow via executive order. You absolutely cannot punish players for reacting to racial abuse, especially when the reaction is something as mild and benign as shushing the racist crowd.
 
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Camilo said:
I actually think this opinion will eventually be viewed as racist. Seeing skin colour will be the same as seeing hair colour in the future - it will have zero weight, it'll just be a visual distinction.

And it's not people seeing race I took issue with, it was people seeing racism in everything. You're point presumably wasn't aimed at me.
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Well we've had 5000 years of recorded history and racism is still alive and well so this seems laughably optimistic to me
 
Camilo said:
I actually think this opinion will eventually be viewed as racist. Seeing skin colour will be the same as seeing hair colour in the future - it will have zero weight, it'll just be a visual distinction.

And it's not people seeing race I took issue with, it was people seeing racism in everything. You're point presumably wasn't aimed at me.
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I'm not sure I follow because it sounds like you're repeating the gist of what I've said. The visual distinction between races is not going away so in that sense, people will always see race. That's what I said.

I followed up by saying that just seeing ourselves as different races is not racism. It is okay to see that we are different because we are in some superficial way. What is not okay is to treat certain people better or worse as a result of these differences.

Now, the rest of your argument sounds like you're saying that people who infer that subtle racism has occurred will be viewed as being racist. Really, what you're saying then is that a person will never be allowed to suspect that racism has occurred unless they have conclusive proof of it up front and that anyone who alleges racism without conclusive proof of it upfront will be branded a racist and shamed into societal disapproval?

1. First this seems like wishful thinking. There is nothing I'm aware of that shows a behavioural trend in this direction. Open to learning otherwise.

2. Why would this be a good thing? Racism can exist in overt and covert ways so the acceptable course should be, as is done with every other accusation, to treat the accused as innocent until proven guilty, while affording the accuser ample opportunity to do so.

Do you disagree?
 
I think/hope that yeah, the idea of race within humanity might one day be considered racist, since that would effectively mean we've finally moved on from its concept as a species, since human races is an entirely social construct. There is only one human race. Our ancestors exterminated the other human races way long ago in prehistory
 
giorno said:
Post was from the league's account, not Napoli's


What type of Pizza did you order? Anyways, yeah, the mozzarella they used was fresh, hence the water. As for the rude comment, yeah, that tracks, Neapolitans can be kind of snobbish and obnoxious about pizza, since they invented it. I can tell you that likely had more to do with you not being neapolitan than the color of your skin(though sure, it might have been both)


Naples is a pretty unique, idiosyncratic city...it's basically a south american metropolis from a tv drama transplanted in europe, and its people take both pride and issue with it at the same time...


.....white people are bad with faces? :D

(Sorry about that mate)


Btw I think i do get the point another poster made about the tone deafness of the post(@AFC NimbleThumb ?) It's not about "crowning" Kvara, it's the exclusion of Osimhen(and Kim, while we're at it) who is just as deserving of such a post
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It was a margarita… the thing is I’d had about three already and none of them were soaking in water :lol:. Basically it was really busy and so obviously the chef was rushing and so probably threw on a bit too much water from the mozzarella but rather than just accept it and give me a different pizza, this waiter decided to take a jibe.

I definitely got the vibe they don’t like out of towners and i probably won’t return. It’s not to say there weren’t plenty of nice And welcoming people but if you spend merely three days in a city and literally have a handful of “strange” experiences in such short time. It doesn’t bode well.
 
giorno said:
I think/hope that yeah, the idea of race within humanity might one day be considered racist, since that would effectively mean we've finally moved on from its concept as a species, since human races is an entirely social construct. There is only one human race. Our ancestors exterminated the other human races way long ago in prehistory
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That's never gonna happen because there would the same level of education/understanding all over the globe. The difference in cultures in such a vast world makes it impossible to eradicate racism and discrimination in general.
There will always be racists
 
Cassidy said:
Player nick named Kvaradona and is the main playmaker for Napoli depicted receiving the crown from Maradona (the main playmaker for Napoli when they last one the league)... I mean...
I don't think racism needs to be brought up here? There is racism in Seria A and Italy as whole and that league does not deal with it well, but this instance....?

Anyway Osimhen is a top player, and a very important one in the title win, but there is no need to diminish the impact Kvaratskhelia had and the obvious links to Maradona (playstyle, playmaking etc) that has been referenced all season

A player can be credited without discrediting another.
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Very wise last sentence
 
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