Racism in Italy - even anti-racism is filled with racism

Yeah it is a reach. Mind, there's probably an undercurrent of racism too, but Kvara is probably going to be the player of the season ahead of Osimhen. It's basically a coin flip between them, Kvara played more and is the more entertaining player. Also more conducive to their game as Simeone and Raspadori generally did well deputizing for Osimhen
 
The Original said:
Does that make any sense? The context is Napoli winning the league for the first time since Maradona last led them to it 33 years ago. If Kvara won some dribbling award then sure. But this is about being the main man in restoring Napoli to the top. Who had the most goal contributions? Who scored the deciding goal? Victor Osimhen in both cases. So on what basis would Kvara be identified as Maradona's successor? Just for having a similar dribbling style (which he really doesn't)?

I won't go as far as alleging racism on the face of this but it's obvious they've gone out of their way to make some point about Kvara being the face of Napoli when he's not merited it.
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It’s also for his story. Coming from
The Georgian league for pittance and lighting up the league with his skills and dribbling ability. They nicknamed him Kvaradona in pre season.

Osimhen missed two periods in the league and Napoli didn’t miss a beat during his first absence. I think they even scored more in his absence than they did with him.
 
Lay said:
It’s also for his story. Coming from
The Georgian league for pittance and lighting up the league with his skills and dribbling ability. They nicknamed him Kvaradona in pre season.

Osimhen missed two periods in the league and Napoli didn’t miss a beat during his first absence. I think they even scored more in his absence than they did with him.
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Assuming the first bolded is indeed part of the reason, you would be suggesting that just having an interesting backstory and being a good dribbler is enough to be seen as the new Maradona. I would have thought this would be an objective question of who played the most critical role? Given that it's Seria A who've shared this image, it's important to ask, does this line of thought truly reflect the views of the fans in Naples?

The second part of your argument seems to suggest that you don't think Osimhen's contribution was important in the big picture of Napoli's win. I would strongly argue otherwise but then I may not have all the facts. Do you have some source that shows how much better they did in his absence? Also, how well did they do in his second spell out?
 
The Original said:
Assuming the first bolded is indeed part of the reason, you would be suggesting that just having an interesting backstory and being a good dribbler is enough to be seen as the new Maradona. I would have thought this would be an objective question of who played the most critical role? Given that it's Seria A who've shared this image, it's important to ask, does this line of thought truly reflect the views of the fans in Naples?

The second part of your argument seems to suggest that you don't think Osimhen's contribution was important in the big picture of Napoli's win. I would strongly argue otherwise but then I may not have all the facts. Do you have some source that shows how much better they did in his absence? Also, how well did they do in his second spell out?
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It's a random promo picture, isn't it? But you're treating it as if it's some mathmatical statement, where it can be proven that Osimhen is the only correct answer.
 
There definitely is some sort of underlying racism here, even if it's subconscious. Without Osimhen Napoli would not have won the league, look at the replies to the tweet, most, if not all, of them are calling out this BS, some even going as far as photoshopping Osimhen in, instead of Kvaratskhelia.
 
The Original said:
Assuming the first bolded is indeed part of the reason, you would be suggesting that just having an interesting backstory and being a good dribbler is enough to be seen as the new Maradona. I would have thought this would be an objective question of who played the most critical role? Given that it's Seria A who've shared this image, it's important to ask, does this line of thought truly reflect the views of the fans in Naples?

The second part of your argument seems to suggest that you don't think Osimhen's contribution was important in the big picture of Napoli's win. I would strongly argue otherwise but then I may not have all the facts. Do you have some source that shows how much better they did in his absence? Also, how well did they do in his second spell out?
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I really don't mean to downplay Osimhen as he has unreal and a major part of their success. But a little context, Osihmen missed 4 games in the league, in those games Napoli in September and October, in that time Napoli won 1-0, 2-1 (Milan away with a penalty won by Kvara iirc), 3-1 and 4-1 with Kvara scoring 1 and assisting 5. His three missed games in the UCL, Napoli won 3-0 twice and 6-1. The second time he was injured Napoli lost twice to Milan but beat Lecce 2-1.

Keep in mind Napoli have fallen apart as is the usual Spalletti way as the season is coming to a close, his lack of rotation has seen players look tired (Anguissa, Lobotka, Zielinski and even Kim). Kim actually mentioned he's physically and mentally tired just before their 4-0 home defeat to Milan.

Now Napoli fans love both of them equally, both have been held up as the stars of the team.
 
do.ob said:
It's a random promo picture, isn't it? But you're treating it as if it's some mathmatical statement, where it can be proven that Osimhen is the only correct answer.
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A. It's a random photo created by someone that Serie A then shared.

B. That's the whole point isn't it? That being identified as the main man for your team is part mathematical--being based on a player's output--and it's part sentimental, but almost always the sentiment will be driven by the maths, except sometimes when the player has some traits that are viewed negatively, like Bale with Madrid fans.

So what sentiment could it be that is driving Serie A to identify a lesser contributor as the team's main man? Do Napoli fans share this sentiment?
 
kouroux said:
It's beyond petty, these clowns denouncing or hinting at racism for the most inappropriate situations do contribute to the trivialization of the fight against racism. I fecking despise cnuts like that
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Likely not your intention but these posts always read like “one of the good ones” rhetoric. Racism shouldn’t ever be trivialised nor should said trivialization be justified like that, even if you don’t agree with whatever it is people are pointing to.
 
UnitedSofa said:
There definitely is some sort of underlying racism here, even if it's subconscious. Without Osimhen Napoli would not have won the league, look at the replies to the tweet, most, if not all, of them are calling out this BS, some even going as far as photoshopping Osimhen in, instead of Kvaratskhelia.
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The photoshopped picture was posted by a Nigerian who of course is hailing his countryman as the true king. Both players played a huge part in Napoli's success but Kvaratskhelia was being groomed as the heir to Maradona before the season even started. As someone who has watched 95% of Napoli games this season, I would edge it to Kvaratskhelia as being the better performer but that also might be down to preferring his style of play to Osimhen's. We're talking G/A stats being similar 24 for Kvara (12 goals and 12 assists) and 27 (22 goals and 5 assists) for Osimhen.
 
Lay said:
The photoshopped picture was posted by a Nigerian who of course is hailing his countryman as the true king. Both players played a huge part in Napoli's success but Kvaratskhelia was being groomed as the heir to Maradona before the season even started. As someone who has watched 95% of Napoli games this season, I would edge it to Kvaratskhelia as being the better performer but that also might be down to preferring his style of play to Osimhen's. We're talking G/A stats being similar 24 for Kvara (12 goals and 12 assists) and 27 (22 goals and 5 assists) for Osimhen.
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He was being groomed as the heir to Maradona? Other than the nickname, what does that really mean?
 
I would give Osimhen the edge, too, but only barely. It’s clear that him and Kvara together were the main guys in Napoli‘s triumph. Given the latter‘s nickname and playing style, there is a clear narrative reason to have him crowned by Maradona.
 
The team was immense up to that loss to Milan in the league. Something happened there. We became tired and it was seen against Salernitana and Udinese too.

If anybody doubts Osimhen's role in winning the Scudetto then okay, whatever. Whole team who were in starting 11 were amazing. Spalletti is a legend.

My favourite players actually are Lobotka (he is so De Jong-like), Raspadori and Simeone (amazing super subs, just amazing).

Sure, Kvara is special. But I feel he was getting exposed by Milan and now all teams know how to lock him up. So let's see what happens.

If ADL decides to sell Oss and Kvara, then it's fine by me - football is still a business and 200+ mln combined for them is a great deal. Just sell them abroad and keep Juve out of these deals.
 
The Original said:
A. It's a random photo created by someone that Serie A then shared.

B. That's the whole point isn't it? That being identified as the main man for your team is part mathematical--being based on a player's output--and it's part sentimental, but almost always the sentiment will be driven by the maths, except sometimes when the player has some traits that are viewed negatively, like Bale with Madrid fans.

So what sentiment could it be that is driving Serie A to identify a lesser contributor as the team's main man? Do Napoli fans share this sentiment?
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So if someone creates some "King of club xxx" picture for anyone but the main goalscorer there must be some bad motivation behind it, because they are "mathematically" inferior? Surely you must realize how ridiculous that sounds and to top if all off you mention Bale, who I assume pretty much always got outscored by Ronaldo, therefore you must have some really questionable intentions by bringing him up.
 
The Original said:
He was being groomed as the heir to Maradona? Other than the nickname, what does that really mean?
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They basically likened him to Diego as soon as he played his first pre season game. He then had a fantastic debut, can't remember if he scored 1 or 2 on his debut but the hype train gathered momentum since then. His dribbling ability (although different to Diego, I likened it to Best's at one point) was a key attribute to why the fans fell in love with him.


JanK said:
Sure, Kvara is special. But I feel he was getting exposed by Milan and now all teams know how to lock him up. So let's see what happens.
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I agree with this, teams have been double teaming him and he hasn't had as much joy. He needs to figure that out next season as he looks frustrated with his lack of space lately. Simeone has been my favourite player this season despite his limited minutes weirdly enough.
 
kouroux said:
It's beyond petty, these clowns denouncing or hinting at racism for the most inappropriate situations do contribute to the trivialization of the fight against racism. I fecking despise cnuts like that
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Petty or not, you ‘despise cnuts like’ what exactly? Black people that post about a widely admitted racist organisation /leagues biases? Ok.

It’s at times like this people like yourself do the best to put themselves, nothing about this should cause such response. It’s almost as if you’re triggered by the notion.
 
do.ob said:
So if someone creates some "King of club xxx" picture for anyone but the main goalscorer there must be some bad motivation behind it, because they are "mathematically" inferior? Surely you must realize how ridiculous that sounds and to top if all off you mention Bale, who I assume pretty much always got outscored by Ronaldo, therefore you must have some really questionable intentions by bringing him up.
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You're free to find anything ridiculous but i'd suggest you examine your own posts much more closely before you level such accusations against others.

1. Serie A is not a random someone. When they share such posts it has a much more significant meaning, particularly in terms of the culture and marketing of the league. I'm certain you know this.

2. Where did I state there was a "bad" motivation behind it?

3. I showed you Bale as an example of a player who wasn't loved despite his output. Was a simple point, which I will rephrase to relieve you of the weight of processing it yourself: Players are usually loved in proportion to their output except in certain cases when there are other non-footballing reasons not to love them. Bale was an example of how non-football issues can dilute the love a fanbase has for their players.

4. Genuinely befuddled by your claim that bringing up Bale must be proof of questionable intentions. What questionable intentions could those possibly be?

Tedious.
 
90 + 5min said:
Racism is serious thing. This is just riduculous and not helping. There is no racism in that picture and by saying Kvara is the king. He have been brilliant this season.
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I think it doesn't hurt that, considering Italian football's past and present with racism, there is a discussion about this. Not saying it is 100% racism but more like many here have said that there might be some subtle undertones that some may find in this when taking into account said racism issues in Italy. I don't think it helps with improving as a society or in the fight against racism if we have to or find the need to decide at one go whether there is or isn't racism in something. If you disagree with all this it's fine, but personally don't find the type of approach of "that's not racism, ridiculous, no need to discuss this further" useful for such a layered and complex subject.
 
Osimhem is the better player for me, but the only reason that picture made sense to me when I first saw it is because of that dude's nickname.
 
The Original said:
So what sentiment could it be that is driving Serie A to identify a lesser contributor as the team's main man? Do Napoli fans share this sentiment?
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Kvaraskhelia has been Napoli's main man for most of the season
 
top1whoisman said:
I think it doesn't hurt that, considering Italian football's past and present with racism, there is a discussion about this. Not saying it is 100% racism but more like many here have said that there might be some subtle undertones that some may find in this when taking into account said racism issues in Italy. I don't think it helps with improving as a society or in the fight against racism if we have to or find the need to decide at one go whether there is or isn't racism in something. If you disagree with all this it's fine, but personally don't find the type of approach of "that's not racism, ridiculous, no need to discuss this further" useful for such a layered and complex subject.
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Exactly.

It’s funny that the post people are getting upset over doesn’t even call it ‘racist’ yet as per, certain Caf members immediately say it can’t be when the poster could just as well be alluding to the biases the league has.

Posters getting upset about an accusation of ‘racism’ they’ve made up in their heads. The tweet is obviously about how Serie A views its black players but instead ‘it’s not racist. . . blah blah’.
 
The Original said:
In what way?
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Really? He was their best player from august to february.

Throw in his on ball impact on their play is far greater than Osimhen's, similar outputs, Napoli doing well in Osi's absence, the more entertaining playing style, the usual bias towards the creative flair player vs the pure goalscorer...
 
The Original said:
You're free to find anything ridiculous but i'd suggest you examine your own posts much more closely before you level such accusations against others.

1. Serie A is not a random someone. When they share such posts it has a much more significant meaning, particularly in terms of the culture and marketing of the league. I'm certain you know this.

2. Where did I state there was a "bad" motivation behind it?

3. I showed you Bale as an example of a player who wasn't loved despite his output. Was a simple point, which I will rephrase to relieve you of the weight of processing it yourself: Players are usually loved in proportion to their output except in certain cases when there are other non-footballing reasons not to love them. Bale was an example of how non-football issues can dilute the love a fanbase has for their players.

4. Genuinely befuddled by your claim that bringing up Bale must be proof of questionable intentions. What questionable intentions could those possibly be?

Tedious.
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What is the significance? They probably posted 50 tweets about Napoli winning it and a bunch of Maradona related stuff. So in that sense it was indeed a pretty random (as in meaningless) tweet to pick up some Maradona/"Kvaradona" picture.

Kvaratskhelia's output was pretty great, too, and it's debatable whether 22 goals and 5 assists from a striker or 12 goals and 12 assists from an attacking midfielder is actually more impressive. Reducing this to "Osimhen had the most G+A" is simplistic to put it nicely, especially when you bring up Bale in the same post, who would be the equivalent to Kvaratskhelia in this case - as in (at times) great contributions, without being top scorer.

And this whole debate is based on someone alleging racism, because Serie A posted that picture. The thread title being "Racism in Italy" is perhaps a hint in this regard. So when someone tells me "well he scored more goals" I have to assume they are leaning into that angle.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
Exactly.

It’s funny that the post people are getting upset over doesn’t even call it ‘racist’ yet as per, certain Caf members immediately say it can’t be when the poster could just as well be alluding to the biases the league has.

Posters getting upset about an accusation of ‘racism’ they’ve made up in their heads. The tweet is obviously about how Serie A views its black players but instead ‘it’s not racist. . . blah blah’.
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Yeah. The more we can have a composed discussion on the topic, the better. Not the Caf, society that is. It's very hard sometimes when you've got people basically shouting "That's not racist" as if their unresearched opinion was somehow the definitive answer and that's it. Not saying the poster in question is necessarily doing that, just something that annoys me. Then again for a lot of people who are not willing, comfortable or able to approach the discussion with a more balanced approach, that's exactly what they want. To shut the conversation before it starts. If that doesn't work, try to ruin to discussion by stating simplistic definitive views as objective truth.
 
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Lay said:
They basically likened him to Diego as soon as he played his first pre season game. He then had a fantastic debut, can't remember if he scored 1 or 2 on his debut but the hype train gathered momentum since then. His dribbling ability (although different to Diego, I likened it to Best's at one point) was a key attribute to why the fans fell in love with him.




I agree with this, teams have been double teaming him and he hasn't had as much joy. He needs to figure that out next season as he looks frustrated with his lack of space lately. Simeone has been my favourite player this season despite his limited minutes weirdly enough.
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I find this discussion so interesting because there are many elements to it. I think it's pretty clear that the Napoli fans love Osimhen but it appears that they love Kvara more. Apparently, Georgian flags are everywhere around the city and I've often seen Napoli fans holding them at games. I can't recall ever seeing Napoli fans holding Nigerian flags and the question has to be asked, why? He is at least as important to the team and the title win as Kvara, and it was very much a team effort, without one player being clearly the talisman, such as the case was with Maradona.

I know people wear the Osimhem mask and everything but I think it would mean a lot more to him if he saw Napoli fans holding the flag of his nation. If there are people who are Napoli fans on here who know different and can correct me on this, I'm happy to listen but i haven't seen it. Maybe there is a subtle racial thing there.

Then of course you have the fact that Kvara is more of a flair player, which is clearly why the Napoli fans have quite understandably taken him to their hearts. But I have to say that while I am an admirer of Kvara and his ability, i think Osimhen stood up much taller at the business end of the season and i think his injury was a big part of the reason that they stumbled so much towards the end in the league and the CL. I think Kvara'a form was nothing like what it was previously. The question of who is actually 'the guy' on that team or 'the face' of that team is a fascinating one. I was leaning Kvara until Victor's injury and then I realised how important his leadership and personality was to that team.
 
giorno said:
Really? He was their best player from august to february.

Throw in his on ball impact on their play is far greater than Osimhen's, similar outputs, Napoli doing well in Osi's absence, the more entertaining playing style, the usual bias towards the creative flair player vs the pure goalscorer...
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Of course, really.

The footballing standard by which a main man is measured is output in goals and assists. So since you say Kvara is the main man in Napoli, despite having an inferior output, you have to explain how you arrived at that assessment.

Even when you consider output it's clear that Osimhen is being held back by not taking penalties, despite winning a lot of them, which Kvara then takes--which is unusual for a striker of his profile, chasing the golden boot in their league.

So:

A. Considering that Osimhen is by far the bigger contributor to open-play goals, I'd ask again, by which metric is Kvara the main man?

B. Do you think that opinion is shared on the streets of Naples?
 
do.ob said:
What is the significance? They probably posted 50 tweets about Napoli winning it and a bunch of Maradona related stuff. So in that sense it was indeed a pretty random (as in meaningless) tweet to pick up some Maradona/"Kvaradona" picture.

Kvaratskhelia's output was pretty great, too, and it's debatable whether 22 goals and 5 assists from a striker or 12 goals and 12 assists from an attacking midfielder is actually more impressive. Reducing this to "Osimhen had the most G+A" is simplistic to put it nicely, especially when you bring up Bale in the same post, who would be the equivalent to Kvaratskhelia in this case - as in (at times) great contributions, without being top scorer.

And this whole debate is based on someone alleging racism, because Serie A posted that picture. The thread title being "Racism in Italy" is perhaps a hint in this regard. So when someone tells me "well he scored more goals" I have to assume they are leaning into that angle.
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For me it's not that much about "Why didn't they choose Osimhen?" although that is not a worthless discussion to be had either, but more about this launching a thought process within myself about how Italian football fans would've reacted if the official Serie A account posted a picture where a black player was considered as the heir of the almighty Maradona. I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing that, in my opinion.
 
top1whoisman said:
Yeah. The more we can have a composed discussion on the topic, the better. Not the Caf, society that is. It's very hard sometimes when you've got people basically shouting "That's not racist" as in their unresearched opinion is somehow a definitive answer and that's it. Not saying the poster in question is necessarily doing that, just something that annoys me. Then again for a lot of people who are not willing, comfortable or able to approach the discussion with a more balanced approach, that's exactly what they want. To shut the conversation before it starts. If that doesn't work, try to ruin to discussion by stating simplistic definitive views as objective truth.
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Agree. It’s very difficult to dissuade opinions though when the only ‘racism’ people acknowledge has to involve something as overt as a monkey chant, people really need to do better.
 
If some people in here are disputing Kvaratskhelia not being one of the best players and the main reasons why Napoli have won the league then they are either on a wind-up or have never watched a single game of Napoli.

They have had the same impact Mahrez and Vardy had when Leicester won the league and Osmihen and Kvaratskhelia will go down as eternal legends there
 
Andrade said:
I find this discussion so interesting because there are many elements to it. I think it's pretty clear that the Napoli fans love Osimhen but it appears that they love Kvara more. Apparently, Georgian flags are everywhere around the city and I've often seen Napoli fans holding them at games. I can't recall ever seeing Napoli fans holding Nigerian flags and the question has to be asked, why? He is at least as important to the team and the title win as Kvara, and it was very much a team effort, without one player being clearly the talisman, such as the case was with Maradona.

I know people wear the Osimhem mask and everything but I think it would mean a lot more to him if he saw Napoli fans holding the flag of his nation. If there are people who are Napoli fans on here who know different and can correct me on this, I'm happy to listen but i haven't seen it. Maybe there is a subtle racial thing there.

Then of course you have the fact that Kvara is more of a flair player, which is clearly why the Napoli fans have quite understandably taken him to their hearts. But I have to say that while I am an admirer of Kvara and his ability, i think Osimhen stood up much taller at the business end of the season and i think his injury was a big part of the reason that they stumbled so much towards the end in the league and the CL. I think Kvara'a form was nothing like what it was previously. The question of who is actually 'the guy' on that team or 'the face' of that team is a fascinating one. I was leaning Kvara until Victor's injury and then I realised how important his leadership and personality was to that team.
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I'm all for people questioning their underlying biases, but there is so much subjective stuff at play here. There are good reasons why someone would idolize Osimhen and there are good reasons, why someone would idolize Kvaratskhelia more (being the flashier player, doing it all in his first season, coming out of Georgia - instead of being an extremely expensive transfer) that it seems forced to do it in this case. Sympathy isn't necessarily perfectly correlated to performances anyway (and that's arguably a good thing).

top1whoisman said:
For me it's not that much about "Why didn't they choose Osimhen?" although that is not a worthless discussion to be had either, but more about this launching a thought process within myself about how Italian football fans would've reacted if the official Serie A account posted a picture where a black player was considered as the heir of the almighty Maradona. I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing that, in my opinion.
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As I posted earlier, I'm all for questioning biases, what I disagree with is that it was framed more like an allegation rather than a question in this case.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
Agree. It’s very difficult to dissuade opinions though when the only ‘racism’ people acknowledge has to involve something as overt as a monkey chant, people really need to do better.
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Very well said. It's exhausting at times but I feel that the other side of the argument deserves and needs defending even though that often takes you inside strange and quite often low-in-quality conversations.
 
There has been back and forth between Nigerians, Georgians and other Osimhen/Kvaratskhelia fans on twitter for at least half of the season about who is "the man", with a lot of criticism aimed at Kvara by those feeling Osimhen is not getting his due in comparison. It's mostly biased followers of players from their own country (not real napoli supporters) getting into typically juvenile social media messi vs ronaldo type bullshit imo. Note that account is calling him KwaraKwara; he's probably been involved in it all.

That said, given Italian football's legitimate issues with racism and recent treatment of various black players, it's not hard to be sympathetic towards countrymen of black players feeling they aren't getting enough respect/recognition, or that there might be prejudice involved.
 
The Original said:
The footballing standard by which a main man is measured is output in goals and assists. So since you say Kvara is the main man in Napoli, despite having an inferior output, you have to explain how you arrived at that assessment.
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What? No. *Your* footballing standard is not the footballing standard.

Even when you consider output it's clear that Osimhen is being held back by not taking penalties, despite winning a lot of them, which Kvara then takes--which is unusual for a striker of his profile, chasing the golden boot in their league.
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Transfermarket counts penalties won as assists. So if we exclude penalties scored, total output is 27 for Osi and 22 for Kvara. Not a lot of difference there

B. Do you think that opinion is shared on the streets of Naples?
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Yep.
 
top1whoisman said:
For me it's not that much about "Why didn't they choose Osimhen?" although that is not a worthless discussion to be had either, but more about this launching a thought process within myself about how Italian football fans would've reacted if the official Serie A account posted a picture where a black player was considered as the heir of the almighty Maradona. I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing that, in my opinion.
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I don't think there would've been much of a discussion to be honest
 
Demyanenko_square_jaw said:
There has been back and forth between Nigerians, Georgians and other Osimhen/Kvaratskhelia fans on twitter for at least half of the season about who is "the man", with a lot of criticism aimed at Kvara by those feeling Osimhen is not getting his due in comparison. It's mostly biased followers of players from their own country (not real napoli supporters) getting into typically juvenile social media messi vs ronaldo type bullshit imo. Note that account is calling him KwaraKwara; he's probably been involved in it all.

That said, given Italian football's legitimate issues with racism and recent treatment of various black players, it's not hard to be sympathetic towards countrymen of black players feeling they aren't getting enough respect/recognition.
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Good point. Pretty much sums up the modern football discussion.

- Napoli wins a Serie A title
- Their star players are from Nigeria and Georgia
- Fans of said players (not the club) argue on who’s better, as if the players themselves would give a rat’s ass about it
 
top1whoisman said:
For me it's not that much about "Why didn't they choose Osimhen?" although that is not a worthless discussion to be had either, but more about this launching a thought process within myself about how Italian football fans would've reacted if the official Serie A account posted a picture where a black player was considered as the heir of the almighty Maradona. I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing that, in my opinion.
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Whatever the merit of that question - this wasn't even the Italian twitter account that posted it. It's the English language account, aimed at an international audience.
 
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