Entire counties of Buddhists do eat meat though.
PSG manager Christophe Galtier under grave accusations of racism and islamophobia
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Entire counties of Buddhists do eat meat though.
Are you 100% sure missing a pillar means someone isn’t a Muslim anymore? Are you absolutely sure of that?
Yes, if you're doing that on purpose.
It's the first step but after that, the person would need to do specific acts. Stating your belief orally isn't enough. Like you said the rest is between the individual and God but in order to improve your chances, you'd also need to follow the 5 pillars
Mufti @kouroux is still in session? 
I agree with the idea of not being an arbiter of who is and who isn't, all we know is that there are 5 pillars to follow if you wanna consider yourself a true Muslim (The Hajj has special context linked to it). I know what rules I should follow if I wanna consider myself as Muslim but I always steer clear of judging others, I have too many flaws as a human being to do so. All I could do is remind the standards and that's it
It's a rare time we have a peaceful discussion on the caf tbh, it's enjoyable. Sorry for derailing the threadMufti @kouroux is still in session?
Gotcha, very interesting. I always thought to be a Muslim you just had to believe in Islam. The end goal is obviously clear and the specific things you mention will help take you towards that end goal, but I didn’t think failing in doing certain things along the way would revoke your membership entirely?
Belief encompasses a lot of things indeed
I thought this too, but based on this thread I might need to read more on it.
Although from what I can gather, it seems to be actually true of many of the protestant churches in Christianity. On the one hand, it keeps things clear and uncomplicated. On the other hand, I'm not sure what the point of living a Christian life would be. May as well believe in God but devote your weekends to cocaine and hookers. In the end, St Peter's still gonna be there to usher you through the gates.
Be right back, I'm off to become a Lutheran.
I understand the basics of the Abrahamic religions. What I don’t understand is how you’ve convinced yourself you’re the authority on piety.
Or perhaps due to a deep, profound Love and feeling of connection to Allah / God?
Hypothetically speaking - what if you had two human beings, both consider themselves Muslim. One proactively dedicates himself entirely to Islam, in every way possible, he is charitable and loving and creates Islamic art that people love and he gives the proceeds to Islamic charities. But he doesn’t fast because he had a religious vision that Islam isn’t about fasting. He doesn’t preach this on other people and he isn’t greedy, he just doesn’t fast.
The other follows every step by guide in Islam, including fasting, but does nothing for the community, is relatively selfish and has cruel nasty feelings toward people.
Are you saying that you (or anyone) are in the position to deny the first man as a Muslim - while accepting the 2nd…?
A one dedicating himself to Islam won't abandon fasting. Both just don't go with each other which makes this a hypothetical scenario based mostly on not knowing what you're talking about. The problem you and others here have seems to be considering fasting as an option, or something up for a debate among Muslims. It's simply not. "Religious vision" Do you even understand what you're saying ? You're basically twisting the principals of religion for your own favor to suit what you want to do. No one "dedicating himself entirely to Islam" will do such thing.
If you're Muslim and not fasting, I'll at least expect from you to know you're wrong in what you're doing and hope you'll correct yourself and start fasting in the future (same for praying), but to not come and twist the religion to excuse yourself for now following a main pillar of your religion "you dedicated yourself to".
And if you feel a deep love and connection to the God you're worshiping, least I'll expect from you is to pray to him and follow the rules and principals of such religion, be it Islam or any other religion, otherwise you're just part of such religion in your ID.
It’s a perfectly fine hypothetical question. Which you’ve predictably avoided answering.
Also, as an aside, you not think religious visions are possible?
What if the hypothetical non fasting guy is someone that’s thought and prayed and meditated upon Islam further and deeper than you ever have or will? What if his understanding of Islam is actually deeper and more esoteric than yours?
What if he denied himself things far greater? What if he lived a chast, monastic existence dedicated solely to Islam but due to his vision didn’t fast?
Would the sole fact of him not fasting be that huge an issue?
Would all the other facets of his life not matter in your decision to accept him as a Muslim or not?
Yes, because he rejected a direct order from God.
"O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting as it was decreed upon those before you that you may become righteous -" Surat Al Baqara, Verse 183
"Ramadan is the month in which the Qur’an was sent down: this Book is a perfect guidance for mankind and consists of clear teachings which show the right way and are a criterion of Truth and falsehood. Therefore from now on whoever witnesses it, it is obligatory on hire to fast the whole month, but if one be ill or on a journey, he should make up for the same number by fasting on other days. Allah desires to show leniency to you and does not desire to show any hardship. “therefore this method is being shown to you so that you may complete the number of Fast days and glorify Allah for the Guidance He has shown to you and be grateful to Him." Surat Al Baqara, Verse 185.
These are verses from Quran, Muslims' holy book. Clear and direct order to fast the month unless you're travelling, ill or have a solid reason to not be able to.
Again, the problem of you and others is they seem to think of this as something up to debate in Islam. There's no religious visions in this. It's not something like wearing Niqab for women for example, which there's no solid evidence from Quran or Prophet's words about it, so it's a topic of debate. Fasting is a clear and direct order from God to his followers mentioned clearly in holy book.
And if you understand Arabic, I'll suggest you to read the above verses in Arabic language since they're better than the translated version.
I understand what’s written, I’m putting to you a hypothetical about an individual who is ‘maverick’ in this one area, and in all other areas his life is deeply dedicated to Islam.
He fasts MORE THAN YOU, he just does it at different times because of his own personal experiences with God. Maybe you view him as mad, but to him, his vision and actions are clear and pure.
The other hypothetical guy is a slob who beats his wife, harbours cruel intent, is judgemental, shallow and lazy - but he fasts when he’s told to.
Which one is the guy who’s ‘only a Muslim by ID’, as you put it? That’s the question.
I understand your way of thinking but a crucial component of all this is an individual is free to make their own choices and it is God who is meant to judge or declare things as supreme being not random communities and not individuals.
The verses are clear. Fasting Ramadan is a must. Fasting in other days isn't. You can't fast the optional days during the year then don't fast in the one month your God directly ordered you to fast in.
He has rejected a clear and direct from the God he dedicated his life to. That's the problem of your hypothetical scenario. Someone deeply dedicated his life to Islam will understand what I'm saying and won't twist the religion principals for his own "visions". There're no visions or opinions on this, because it's a direct order mentioned in Islam's holy book. Both simply just don't go with each other, but you wanted an answer so yes, he has committed a huge sin if he's not fasting Ramadan because he thinks it's not obligatory.
See, the other one isn't a good person, nor is he a good example for being a Muslim. Believing in God, praying and fasting Ramadan are the first steps to actually become a Muslim, after that you start to go deeper in other Islam's rules and instructions for your life and your relationships with others.
I didn't really disagree they're free to make their choices.
A bit unnecessary to go out of your way to disrespect people’s faith.
That’s fine but you’re trying to gatekeep who is and isn’t part of a religion, when you have no right to do so.
Leave the judging to God / Allah and stop trying to define and categorise other people as worthy or not when you’re not equipped to do so (as no one is - I don’t mean that as an insult to you).
This isn't my own personal opinion. Anyway try to search for the ruling for those who intentionally abandon praying or Ramadan fasting if you're that interesting.
I wasn’t talking about abandoning praying, at all.
The point of the hypothetical was a guy who prays and fasts more than you do, but doesn’t do so during Ramadan for some personal reason / protest.
And whether or not - in your mind - that ‘lessened’ him as a Muslim, vs people who live pretty standard, less chastened lives in general and who fast LESS than hypothetical guy but do so during the month they’ve been told to.
To me, given that the point of fasting is to bring one closer to God, and hypothetical guy fasts more than you do over the whole year, the notion that you or anyone else ‘deny’ his faith is ridiculous.
It's not by the numbers though, is it ? Ramadan is a must. Any other days you fast in outside Ramadan are optional, desirable but not obligatory. Ramadan in the only time during the year in which fasting is obligatory.
If you are taking an exam that has one obligatory question to answer and 4 optional ones, and you perfectly answered the 4 optional questions and left the obligatory one without an answer, you'll get zero as a mark, won't you ?
That's more of a reason why your hypothetical scenario really doesn't work. If someone has no issue fasting and fasts all other optional days during the year which Quran didn't really order him to, why won't he fast the only month that he received a direct order to fast in ? Did you actually meet someone like that in your life ?
The vast majority of Muslims do fast. There will be exceptions like the former Soviet republics or Albania where religion was violently prohibited during the decades of dictatorship. Overall though the vast majority of adult healthy Muslims do fast during Ramadan.
We adjust a little but generally just get on with life.
I've not followed the whole argument here - just want to shed some light on this scenario.
According to Islamic principles - both people are Muslims, they might not be the best examples but they are still Muslims.
Person 1 however has some explaining to do. If he is a sane, healthy adult then fasting during the month of Ramadan is religiously obligatory upon him. If he is aware of this and chooses to not fast - he is a Muslim, but sinful for not fasting.
If however he firmly believes it is not obligatory for a sane, healthy adult to fast during Ramadan - then he is at risk of rejecting a key tenant of the faith and this putting himself outside of the faith.
Islam has no space for people's opinions or feelings - if they are not based on a scholarly religious researched opinion.
If person 1 were to ever express his belief publicly - in an Islamic country the state would have a responsibility to address that opinion in a scholarly manner - if it was found to be invalid then he would be asked to renounce it and educated as to why it's invalid.
If he were to refuse to do so and was judged as mentally sound and able to understand the issue at hand - then the state has the option to publicly excommunicate that person from the faith.
The important bit here is whether the opinion is private or public. Privately your faith is your own. Publicly Islam is defined and detailed and the state has a responsibility to preserve it.
To many Internet tough guys are eager to excommunicate people from the faith nowadays.
Scholars of Islam consider it a last resort only when someone is publicly damaging the faith by promoting opinions contrary to it.
No scholar worth his salt would suggest ex communicating someone for holding invalid beliefs, or even for expressing them. The line is promoting them.
Actually, I personally think it's other way around.
To be a muslim (or christian, jew, buddhist etc), you first have to be a decent human being. There's no point following these five pillars and believing in God if everything else you do in your life brings suffering and/or harm to other people. You're just pissing in the sand otherwise, and to use your own words, "a muslim by ID". And there's a feckton of these, this of course is not restricted only to muslims. I'd like to hear more from you about this matter.
I was hoping he was under arrest for fraud as a quick, cheap and ironic laugh.
Sounds like a great chap.
I think it's clear who the scum is, Christophe.
White Frenchman complaining about that is painfully ironic.
Blacks and Muslims made up the majority of two World Cup winning french teams and another that reached a final.
Blacks and Muslims made up the majority of two World Cup winning french teams and another that reached a final.
It‘s crazy that they hired him, absolutely bonkers. This guy should never manage a team again.
Surprised PSG haven't officially sacked him yet.
He most likely won’t. I can’t imagine what club would be willing to take him on, and even past that, I can’t see black players or Muslim players being comfortable with him as their coach, and rightfully so.
Sadly people talking like this is not us usual. Especially the older generation. They also tend to be less careful of electronic media optics.