If a vegetarian occasionally has a bit of jerky, but mostly still follows the diet, are they still vegetarians?
PSG manager Christophe Galtier under grave accusations of racism and islamophobia
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I literally know a guy who describes and considers himself a Muslim (his parents' faith) but since he lived in Western Europe all his life he's really not the strictest when it comes to pillars, yet again it doesn't mean he ignores them all and the religion still plays a big role in his life. Not to mention scores of other Muslim lads I'd have met who'd enjoy an occasional drink or other stuff not necessarily allowed by the religion. This approach "you're either a fully devoted worshipper or you're not one of us" strikes me a bit as gatekeeping. In all honesty, I'm sure that in my home country there are quite a few of hardlines that'd also go "oh if you don't go to church every Sunday, don't respect lent, don't do the X, Y, Z, you're not a real Catholic". I'm not buying it - I'm not religious at all, but vast majority of the religious people I know (and from different religions too) are relatively big hypocrites
There's obviously countless Muslims who like a drink, and/or might not not fast every day or some of the days of Ramadan. I know plenty of them! Kouroux is on some absolutist shit.
Sure, it’s just a made up concept that doesn’t actually mean anything so does it really matter? Much like Islam actually.
If you're not following the laws and rules of your religion, then you're not really a part of that religion. A lot of people have "Muslim" checked in their ID while they know nothing about it and don't follow any of its regulations. Praying and fasting are cornerstones of Islam and unless you have big reason to not be able to do them, if you're not doing them on your own choice, then you're not a Muslim, plain and simple I don't care what is written in your ID.
No, they are stripped of their titles by the International Vegetarian Council which keeps track of all their meals and snacks.
Do any rules matter to you at all or do you just go around telling people their rules don't matter?
I don’t think you can deny people their right to identify with one group or another, even if they don’t follow the same principles as you do. For many it’s much more about their heritage than blindly following all principles. Your logic is dangerous too, because there always can come a guy for whom you’re not orthodox enough and for whom you’re not a real Muslim/Christian/United fan.
It really does remind me a bit of Top Reds way of thinking we’ve seen of the Caf in the late Ole days :lol;
They're free to identify themselves as "Muslims" if they want, and me and others are free to not recognize them as such when they're purposefully not following cornerstones of the religion they're claiming to be part of when they can, and this is far bigger and more important than comparing it to football situations.
I was always allured by relativism if you want to know, so perhaps that’s why any kind of gatekeeping makes me uncomfortable. I don’t really identify with any group and personally don’t care about this, but I know people who’d be hurt as they were told “you are not a real Muslim/Polish/man if you’re not 100% like us”, for me it’s quite sectarian. Let people identify the way they want if it is important for their well being, there’s no need to go after them “hey you’re not the real one” even if they’re hypocrites.
It's a silly take because we have the word "sects" for a reason.
Fair enough and I completely understand your point of view. It’s all good until someone starts to weaponize this “we’re the real ones, you’re not” - not saying you did anything like it, I’m just very allergic to such rhetoric
I'm not sure if it's gatekeeping. I'm not religious but Ramadan is clearly a very important part of their faith, even a clown like Pogba takes it very seriously. If people want to cheat, fine, they can do whatever they want, but its probably best to keep it to themselves. Feels like having your cake and eating it too if they want to cheat and insist on others accepting them for it.
You're still a muslim if you believe that fasting is compulsory but dont fast. People do that but they accept that they are wrong and ask for forgiveness later (this is discouraged greatly otherwise everyone would do this).
You're not a muslim if you dont believe fasting is compulsory and promote this as being part of Islam because then you take something that is unequivocal and change it to suit what you want not what God has said.
The same goes with prayers.
No. Flexitarian would be the right term.
Personally I don’t think it’s a good look trying to find any correlation between someone’s personality and their commitment to the religion they practice.
It's not about gatekeeping, I was talking from a strictly religious POV. This isn't something I have invented on my own and myself I have never been the most devout nor consistent Muslim in my life to a point where I couldn't consider myself as one (since I wasn't praying anymore basically).I literally know a guy who describes and considers himself a Muslim (his parents' faith) but since he lived in Western Europe all his life he's really not the strictest when it comes to pillars, yet again it doesn't mean he ignores them all and the religion still plays a big role in his life. Not to mention scores of other Muslim lads I'd have met who'd enjoy an occasional drink or other stuff not necessarily allowed by the religion. This approach "you're either a fully devoted worshipper or you're not one of us" strikes me a bit as gatekeeping. In all honesty, I'm sure that in my home country there are quite a few of hardlines that'd also go "oh if you don't go to church every Sunday, don't respect lent, don't do the X, Y, Z, you're not a real Catholic". I'm not buying it - I'm not religious at all, but vast majority of the religious people I know (and from different religions too) are relatively big hypocrites
No one is perfect and the idea is to keep fighting to be consistent, my point is that at a precise moment of one's life, if there is no prayer nor fasting when able to, you cannot consider yourself a Muslim. Once again this is strictly from a theological POV
A ‘clown like Pogba’…
Isn’t Pogba a devout Muslim?
What has he done that suggests to you that his theological stance should be regarded as low level?
He is a Muslim. That is what's being discussed. All Muslims are expected to follow the faith, pretty sure there is no definition of devout or regular.
Fair enough mate. Initially I thought you sounded like one of the puritanical nutters who they used to put behind the microphone at Eid prayers who would then make it their mission to make everyone in the room feel bad, but this is actually quite reasonable and not so judgemental.
I'm not religious anyway, so it's not my fight.
I know I have a lot of shortcomings as a Muslim to put myself in a judge position. It's just about reminding others and myself about general rules
I thought the core requirement to being a Muslim was the belief itself. Beyond that humans are flawed and how devout they are will fluctuate over time but as long as the they don't stop believing they remained part of the religion?
The belief in itself is the start but there are 5 pillars, they all play their part. It's easiest part to have but it's just not enough, you need to practice the pillars and then some. The idea is to fight you shortcomings and try to be as consistent as possible. Doing concrete elements of the faith strengthen that belief, on its own, it's nowhere near enough
Oh for sure, but I was just talking about who is a Muslim and who isn't. I get what you're saying but I thought the belief itself was enough to cover that basic requirement and beyond that it's between the individual and god?
Can you please define what a "white country" is?
The concept of taking it upon yourself to gatekeep is just staggering to me. Why do you even conceive of making the decision to recognize or not recognize in regards to a total stranger that has no effect on your life? What do you gain by declaring if someone is or is not a Muslim by your personal standards?
Scotland on account of the 4 minutes of sunshine it gets per decade
The palest of pale.
What makes Belarus a white country by definition? White people do not decide who does and does not get to live there.
The name.
You can only be Muslim if you do X. Isn't this how ISIS started?
I know several Muslims who don't fast.
I know several Muslims who don't fast.
That's nothing tbh. If you know a Buddhist who eats meat... now thats impressive
It's ignorance to consider these "personal standards". Praying and fasting are cornerstones of the religion. If you're a Muslim you're obligated to follow them. It's not up for a discussion, and if you don't know or have no background what Islam pillars are then you shouldn't get into discussions about things you have no idea about.
You, as a Muslim, should actually be very careful to say who is or isn't Muslim if they identify themselves as Muslim. I invite you to look into it, it completely changed my attitude, for the better, when I learned about the consequences of these words and what it really meant.
It's about what you belive in that's why it's called having faith.
You might not necessarily follow all the tenets of a said religion and that still doesn't detach you from it's ranks as long as you still belive in it's principal foundations, not fasting(if capable)would make you a very bad Muslim but still a Muslim.
You might not necessarily follow all the tenets of a said religion and that still doesn't detach you from it's ranks as long as you still belive in it's principal foundations, not fasting(if capable)would make you a very bad Muslim but still a Muslim.
This is an open forum and I’ll discuss whatever I want, but the point is every human being gets to make these decisions for themselves at the end of the day. The standards you’ve set for yourself personally are not the end all be all for someone else, and your position to decide who meets the qualifications to be Muslim is 100% self appointed.
Discuss things you have an idea about or at least put some efforts into reading about it before participating in such discussion otherwise you're arguing for the sake of it and out of ignorance.
It's ignorance to keep on mentioning these are personal standards and I'm not willing to go further in a discussion with someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.
And as I said above, they're free to consider themselves Muslims if they want, and me and others are free to not recognize them as such.
I agree with the bolded. But just as its ignorant to call pillars of a religion personal standards, others will and have pointed out that deciding what and who constitutes a Muslim is likewise, ignorant.
I've no dog in this fight and am only asking out of curiosity but wouldn't God decide who is or isn't a Muslim?
Notice that I haven't talked about someone drinking alcohol or doing others things that are prohibited in Islam. I'm talking about following the main pillars of Islam. These are the corners of the religion and you're obligated to follow them. If you're not following the main corners that your religion is based on and you're doing that on your own and on purpose with no solid reason, on what basis are you considering yourself part of that religion ? Because you grew up among Muslims so you became one out of routine ?