Protests following the killing of George Floyd

And yet he still wouldn't have died from his health conditions unless there had been a knee and the partial weight of a police officer on his neck.

But his comorbidities killed him sir.
I really hope the prosecution team are up to the task.
 
See this is why I don't get some people in the CE forum. Disagree with him fine but to just go in and suggest he's a racist is quite crass. Just shutting down any meaningful discussion because people dare suggest something different.

If he doesn't want to be accused of being racist, he shouldn't say racist shit. I'll be honest, I don't think there's any meaningful discussion to be had with him at this point. You might think it's crass, but this isn't debate class. He's not owed a discussion to sealion his way through.
 
An underlying health condition wouldn't make any difference in the UK as you "take the victim as you find them". It won't break the chain of causation. Is this any different in the US?
 
And yet he still wouldn't have died from his health conditions unless there had been a knee and the partial weight of a police officer on his neck.

But his comorbidities killed him sir.
Yeah, this logic is so off. If someone punches an 80 year old granny and she dies, is his responsibility mitigated because of "underlying health conditions"?
 
And yet he still wouldn't have died from his health conditions unless there had been a knee and the partial weight of a police officer on his neck.

But his comorbidities killed him sir.
I know that - but the defense is going to use the comorbidities and toxicology results to muddy the waters for the jury.
 
The tendency to fear and expect bad outcomes from black people when you're walking down the street late at night is down to stereotypes but those stereotypes are rooted in real life experiences. It's laughable to suggest that it's just based on what people see in movies or TV. If you are much more likely to be robbed by a black person than an Asian, for example, why is it racist to feel more worried when you see group of black people somewhere late at night than a group of Asians or whites? It's just common sense and it's the reality we live in.

These protests won't bring any real change because they only concentrate on the faults of the system and how it acts towards black population. They completely ignore the other side of the equation which is black urban community and its failings. Poverty, drug dealing, gang culture and violence are rampant in many neighborhoods where African-Americans are a majority. If black lives matter, why not concentrate on parents staying together and raising children, prioritizing education and trying their best to keep kids at school and off streets. But that's a much harder and longer road with plenty of setbacks and no guaranteed short term success. It's much easier to just point fingers at the system, decry white privilege and demand change from others than look at yourself in a mirror and wonder what you can do to improve situation in your own family, your own community etc. You can't expect the world around you to change and not doing your bit. And I don't mean making selfies with friends at protests while giving a finger to the cops.
The US is built on exploitation, both domestically and in foreign lands. You can't be seriously claiming that black people are solely responsible for the change that is needed?

The current events just prove that USA has been using the same tactics on their own territory and on foreign grounds. Deception, torture, oppression, lies, false promises. In order for a meaningful and just change of the system, people need to get to the core of the problem - the American idea of superiority over the whole world.
 
An underlying health condition wouldn't make any difference in the UK as you "take the victim as you find them". It won't break the chain of causation. Is this any different in the US?
It’s a well worn path when defending cops or other people that have killed minorities to bang on about toxicology results.

Like when the judge allowed evidence of traces of THC in Trayvon Martin’s tox results to be used by the defense...
https://www.cnn.com/2013/07/08/justice/zimmerman-trial/index.html

To my knowledge, the never did a tox screen of Zimmerman that night.
 
I know that - but the defense is going to use the comorbidities and toxicology results to muddy the waters for the jury.
I'm agreeing with you.

It's crazy but that is what they will try to sell to the jury and I hope they are up to the job because otherwise what we think has been protests and riots so far will probably look to be like comparing a few fans at Hackney Marshes to a home game at AC Milan.
 
Yeah, this logic is so off. If someone punches an 80 year old granny and she dies, is his responsibility mitigated because of "underlying health conditions"?

If she had better conditioning, she would have had a stronger chin. For that reason I blame her coaches not the puncher.
 
I'm agreeing with you.

It's crazy but that is what they will try to sell to the jury and I hope they are up to the job because otherwise what we think has been protests and riots so far will probably look to be like comparing a few fans at Hackney Marshes to a home game at AC Milan.
Oh no doubt. The moment they try to excuse the cop for murdering him on tv - and this trial will probably be televised - shit could hit the fan.
 
Are any Federal charges likely? Violating civil rights for instance?

If he goes to Federal Prison he can't get paroled.
 
See this is why I don't get some people in the CE forum. Disagree with him fine but to just go in and suggest he's a racist is quite crass. Just shutting down any meaningful discussion because people dare suggest something different.

'Russians need to stop blaming America and NATO for their issues. Its easy to blame it on a western conspiracy, as opposed to looking at the hard work they need to do in their own community. Throwing off the yoke of their dictator and their oligarch class, diversifying their economy off fossil fuels and stop drowning their sorrows in vodka and actually work to make babies instead so that their population doesn't continue shrinking.'

This is a fecking stupid (and racist) opinion and yet it's essentially what he wrote above about black people. If I wrote the above seriously, I would expect to be called out. It is also not the first time this particular poster has posted such views.

What a fecking insult to essentially suggest that all black people do is blame others and not look within. What a fecking insult to suggest all they do in America (between shooting each other and knocking up more women) is protest and flip the finger at police. And that people aren't also trying to make change within the utter shit that is the communities most of them have grown up in. This in a country where within living memory blacks still had to sit at the back of the bus.

There is quite a significant difference imo between

a) I don't know enough about this topic, please help to educate me
b) I don't know enough about this topic but I'll articulate some opinions that are misguided but ultimately well intentioned
c) I don't know enough about this topic but I'll spout my offensive nonsense regardless

I'm sick of pandering to c in particular, whether in real life or online.
 
I'm going to try to be as civil as possible here because this is a very emotive issue for me and many other black people. I also know that many Asians (East and South) see themselves as somehow removed from racism, see it as a black and white issue, even though some of the most obvious racism I and other black people have received has been from Asians or in Asian countries. I have also seen your posting on here and despite what you say in the last paragraph, I don't think you are willing to change your mind. You have come in here, repeated this one study over and over again, at one point admitted you don't actually know that much about the Floyd Killing and proceeded to carry on holding the same opinion. Regardless, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and attempt to get my thoughts down in a polite manner.

I'm pretty sure others have raised this with you already. But I struggle to understand how you don't understand that a system that criminalises black people, that portrays them as a fundamental threat, is not inherently racist? The fact that black people do the same does not mean the system is not racist. It means that we are also raised in this global system, with an unspoken hierarchy where white is at the top and black at the bottom. I was doing some humanitarian work in Uganda a few years ago and one of the workers there asked me whether I thought the South Sudanese refugees were attractive or not (fecking dumb question of course). She asked me how they can be attractive when they're so dark. Or another Ugandan woman who wished she could be like Michael Jackson so she could be white. These people are not born like this.

Yes I do think basically everyone is a racist in some way or another. I include myself in that. We all hold prejudices that we've picked up in our daily lives and from our environments. The key is to try and acknowledge those and actually try to change those thoughts, rather than pat ourselves on the back for how little racism we hold.

Your murder rapist analogy is so off-piste I don't even know where to begin tbh. But for the rest of the point, I would say many people, on here at least, are trying to acknowledge it. They're trying to challenge it. Friends and colleagues have been asking me what they can do to help, whether they ever do these things themselves and how to help challenge those misconceptions.

'Those who see it this way are the greatest racists'. Really? So someone who sees this as racism is a worse racist than the white guy who walked into a black church to kill people for instance? That's really your argument? Ffs.

You seem to have done 2 things here.

1) Bunker down on there being no proof of this being racism from Chauvin
2) State that we're all more likely to shoot black people if given the chance

And are managing to completely miss the point. The reality is, it isn't about Floyd. Nor is it about Chauvin. Chauvin may well not be a racist (though he is a murderer). The point is, people don't care anymore. This is a tipping point, reached because of decades of institutionalised racism barely hidden under the surface, following centuries of institutionalised racism completely out in the open. These protests are not about Chauvin or Floyd. They're about the way the police, the criminal justice system, the media, the government and normal people, treat black people every single day. The issue of police brutality more likely being meted out to blacks is just the tip of a huge iceberg of millions of much smaller and less dramatic events that don't make it to national media or cause international protests but are fecking tiring regardless.

The protests have very clear aims. And they are very legitimate. They are an attempt to change the reality for black people in America. To shine a spotlight on what happens to blacks every day there. To change the culture of policing and justice where blacks are more likely to be stopped, more likely to be searched, more likely to be brutalised, more likely to be imprisoned for the same crime as a white, more likely to spend longer in jail than a white, more likely to be struck off a jury than a white. To shine a light on the fact that black people are inherently seen as poor and dangerous, especially if we end up god forbid doing well enough to end up in a 'white neighbourhood'. That we're less likely to get a job than a white person with the exact same qualification based on our names. More likely to have the police called on them for silly crimes. More likely to be mistaken for criminals. More likely to have poor water quality and poor access to healthcare. Then there's the things that are difficult to quantify but we've all experienced. People following us in a shop. Thinking we can't afford things. Crossing the street. Clutching their purse or bag closer to them when they see us.

You seem like a very very very literal person. No evidence of racism from Chauvin, only brutality. These protests are specifically to protest the racist killing of Floyd. No and no. It isn't about individual racism from one police officer and it isn't about the individual killing of one black man.

Such a well articulated post.
 
Oh no doubt. The moment they try to excuse the cop for murdering him on tv - and this trial will probably be televised - shit could hit the fan.
Oh yes, fan, hit, shit.

If found guilty what sort of prison will they place the officers in? Any thoughts? Whites I believe are a minority in US Prisons and Jails?
 
An underlying health condition wouldn't make any difference in the UK as you "take the victim as you find them". It won't break the chain of causation. Is this any different in the US?
Yep, also known as the ‘thin skull rule’.
 
The tendency to fear and expect bad outcomes from black people when you're walking down the street late at night is down to stereotypes but those stereotypes are rooted in real life experiences. It's laughable to suggest that it's just based on what people see in movies or TV. If you are much more likely to be robbed by a black person than an Asian, for example, why is it racist to feel more worried when you see group of black people somewhere late at night than a group of Asians or whites? It's just common sense and it's the reality we live in.

These protests won't bring any real change because they only concentrate on the faults of the system and how it acts towards black population. They completely ignore the other side of the equation which is black urban community and its failings. Poverty, drug dealing, gang culture and violence are rampant in many neighborhoods where African-Americans are a majority. If black lives matter, why not concentrate on parents staying together and raising children, prioritizing education and trying their best to keep kids at school and off streets. But that's a much harder and longer road with plenty of setbacks and no guaranteed short term success. It's much easier to just point fingers at the system, decry white privilege and demand change from others than look at yourself in a mirror and wonder what you can do to improve situation in your own family, your own community etc. You can't expect the world around you to change and not doing your bit. And I don't mean making selfies with friends at protests while giving a finger to the cops.

:wenger:
 
'Russians need to stop blaming America and NATO for their issues. Its easy to blame it on a western conspiracy, as opposed to looking at the hard work they need to do in their own community. Throwing off the yoke of their dictator and their oligarch class, diversifying their economy off fossil fuels and stop drowning their sorrows in vodka and actually work to make babies instead so that their population doesn't continue shrinking.'

This is a fecking stupid (and racist) opinion and yet it's essentially what he wrote above about black people. If I wrote the above seriously, I would expect to be called out. It is also not the first time this particular poster has posted such views.

What a fecking insult to essentially suggest that all black people do is blame others and not look within. What a fecking insult to suggest all they do in America (between shooting each other and knocking up more women) is protest and flip the finger at police. And that people aren't also trying to make change within the utter shit that is the communities most of them have grown up in. This in a country where within living memory blacks still had to sit at the back of the bus.

There is quite a significant difference imo between

a) I don't know enough about this topic, please help to educate me
b) I don't know enough about this topic but I'll articulate some opinions that are misguided but ultimately well intentioned
c) I don't know enough about this topic but I'll spout my offensive nonsense regardless

I'm sick of pandering to c in particular, whether in real life or online.

Well put. I didn't have the energy or the eloquence to articulate it, but this just about sums it up.
 
I think most of the points have been addressed in #3427. I agree that black people are often treated unfairly by the cops, this includes being treated in a less lenient way etc. These are classic examples of racism, and people can always voice their dissent to these racist acts from time to time, but not making use of Floyd's death as it's a clear case of police brutality.

For the brutality part, however, I personally have some conservation. From the social experiment, the majority of participants including black people themselves were more likely to shoot at their black friend rather than a white stranger. While you may argue this is already a kind of racism, I think the definition would be too broad this way that basically everyone is a racist.

Many talk about police's bias towards the black, but they fail to acknowledge their own bias. They presumably think Chauvin murdered Floyd due to racial profiling, solely based on so-called history and pattern without any evidence. Using the same metaphor as before, it's like a murderer must also be a rapist just because many killers rape their victims in the society.

When a white man is knelt to death, it's police brutality; when a black man is killed in the same way, it's racism. It just doesn't make any sense. Those who see it this way are actually the greatest racists, because they view and categorize the same event differently. Now it seems people value black people higher than others, as their death arouses attention while few care about others.

Unlike others, I'm always prepared to change my mind, as soon as there is any direct evidence pointing to the involvement of racism in this particular case. Maybe someone would testify against him in the trial, maybe someome would leak some stories to the press. Honestly, I hope Chauvin can be proven a racist in the end, otherwise all these protests look far less legitimate and meaningful, as they have already been without a clear aim and a concrete demand.
Oh no guys. We’ve officially got to the ‘people who called out racism are the real racists’ point :nervous:
 
Just read a good explanation of white privalege in this exact matter, that a few on here should probably take notice of.

You keep saying "It's horrible that an innocent black man was killed, but destroying property has to stop"

Try saying, "It's horrible that property is being destroyed, but killing innocent black men has to stop"

You're prioritising the wrong part.
 
I would imagine that the charges will stick and the sentences will be long regardless of the trial. Forget about justice, I'd have thought that the civil and (more importantly) economic repercussions of a light sentence would be unthinkable to even the most racist of American institutions. The LA riots will look like a barbeque in comparison if they escape this.
 
I have gone over this point again and again. In the social experiment I've quoted, the majority of the experimental subjects shoot at the black friend they know instead of a white stranger. Even black people themselves have the same preconception and make the same decision, do you call this racism? More importantly, these participants are not from the police (institution) at all, so I don't think institutional racism has anything to do with black people more likely to be killed by cops.

I agree with the rest of your post though, and I truly understand institutional racism has created an unfair environment for people of color to live. Like I said before, racism is intolerable and should be discouraged, and there are plenty of classic examples to make a case. It's pathetic to make use of Floyd's death to get the point across. Police brutality is clearly the bigger issue in this case, but it's not properly addressed as the focus is spun.
This post is so vile I feel I need to reply to it twice.

Particularly your last paragraph.

You ensure you give your "I'm not racist" sentence in saying "I agree...racism is intolerable blah blah blah"

But then you go on to shit on it by calling the stand against racism pathetic in this particular case.
The FACT is Floyd was black.
The FACT is the policeman is white.

It is enough for most black (and other) people in America to see how similar that is to the MANY super clear killings other police have done that were clearly racially based and are crying out for justice, for something to be done.
Not specifically about Floyd but on the entire problem of racial inequality and prejudice.

I can respect you for saying something like: "I can understand why they protesting on racism, even though I think it should also be about police brutality" ...but no, your clear lack of understanding and empathy to the sheer pain of black people in America and how sick they are of going through this kind of thing almost everyday, makes you rather say it's PATHETIC, that just stinks of blind racism. You can't even see it while do many have called you out on it. You'd rather double down.

The fact that you see police brutality and not racism as a bigger issue in this just shows how willfully ignorant and insensitive you are about the issue of race and black people, to me.
You don't even want to leave room to the possibility of both Police brutality and racism. It must be one or the other.
 
'Russians need to stop blaming America and NATO for their issues. Its easy to blame it on a western conspiracy, as opposed to looking at the hard work they need to do in their own community. Throwing off the yoke of their dictator and their oligarch class, diversifying their economy off fossil fuels and stop drowning their sorrows in vodka and actually work to make babies instead so that their population doesn't continue shrinking.'

This is a fecking stupid (and racist) opinion and yet it's essentially what he wrote above about black people. If I wrote the above seriously, I would expect to be called out. It is also not the first time this particular poster has posted such views.

What a fecking insult to essentially suggest that all black people do is blame others and not look within. What a fecking insult to suggest all they do in America (between shooting each other and knocking up more women) is protest and flip the finger at police. And that people aren't also trying to make change within the utter shit that is the communities most of them have grown up in. This in a country where within living memory blacks still had to sit at the back of the bus.

There is quite a significant difference imo between

a) I don't know enough about this topic, please help to educate me
b) I don't know enough about this topic but I'll articulate some opinions that are misguided but ultimately well intentioned
c) I don't know enough about this topic but I'll spout my offensive nonsense regardless

I'm sick of pandering to c in particular, whether in real life or online.

This is fair and challenges the post with enough information for him, and others, to see how he's come across. I don't doubt for one minute that there are racists on the Caf but surely we have to be better than just shutting people down by throwing the term around without probing further into their mindset?

I've been pretty consistent in my views on the topic in the sense I think that there is alot of wider work required in American society to try and fix this problem. It's not just as simple as saying "all cops are racist" as it exists in a number of places and to fully work to eradicate it you have to look much wider as you do when trying to make a cultural change.
 
Oh yes, fan, hit, shit.

If found guilty what sort of prison will they place the officers in? Any thoughts? Whites I believe are a minority in US Prisons and Jails?
They might place them in protective custody units - prisons within the prison - that are separate from the general population.
 
Just read a good explanation of white privalege in this exact matter, that a few on here should probably take notice of.

You keep saying "It's horrible that an innocent black man was killed, but destroying property has to stop"

Try saying, "It's horrible that property is being destroyed, but killing innocent black men has to stop"

You're prioritising the wrong part.
On the fecking money!
 
'Russians need to stop blaming America and NATO for their issues. Its easy to blame it on a western conspiracy, as opposed to looking at the hard work they need to do in their own community. Throwing off the yoke of their dictator and their oligarch class, diversifying their economy off fossil fuels and stop drowning their sorrows in vodka and actually work to make babies instead so that their population doesn't continue shrinking.'

This is a fecking stupid (and racist) opinion and yet it's essentially what he wrote above about black people. If I wrote the above seriously, I would expect to be called out. It is also not the first time this particular poster has posted such views.

What a fecking insult to essentially suggest that all black people do is blame others and not look within. What a fecking insult to suggest all they do in America (between shooting each other and knocking up more women) is protest and flip the finger at police. And that people aren't also trying to make change within the utter shit that is the communities most of them have grown up in. This in a country where within living memory blacks still had to sit at the back of the bus.

There is quite a significant difference imo between

a) I don't know enough about this topic, please help to educate me
b) I don't know enough about this topic but I'll articulate some opinions that are misguided but ultimately well intentioned
c) I don't know enough about this topic but I'll spout my offensive nonsense regardless

I'm sick of pandering to c in particular, whether in real life or online.
Great post. Not sure the guy is racist, but he definitely showed his ignorance and disregard to the severity of the issue and how complex it is.
 
The tendency to fear and expect bad outcomes from black people when you're walking down the street late at night is down to stereotypes but those stereotypes are rooted in real life experiences. It's laughable to suggest that it's just based on what people see in movies or TV. If you are much more likely to be robbed by a black person than an Asian, for example, why is it racist to feel more worried when you see group of black people somewhere late at night than a group of Asians or whites? It's just common sense and it's the reality we live in.

These protests won't bring any real change because they only concentrate on the faults of the system and how it acts towards black population. They completely ignore the other side of the equation which is black urban community and its failings. Poverty, drug dealing, gang culture and violence are rampant in many neighborhoods where African-Americans are a majority. If black lives matter, why not concentrate on parents staying together and raising children, prioritizing education and trying their best to keep kids at school and off streets. But that's a much harder and longer road with plenty of setbacks and no guaranteed short term success. It's much easier to just point fingers at the system, decry white privilege and demand change from others than look at yourself in a mirror and wonder what you can do to improve situation in your own family, your own community etc. You can't expect the world around you to change and not doing your bit. And I don't mean making selfies with friends at protests while giving a finger to the cops.

First paragraph is an absolute train wreck so I’m not even going to address it.

Second paragraph: Everything you mentioned is still a by-product of racism. Socio economic factors brought about BY systemic racism is why the issues that you mentioned are prevalent in black communities. And btw it’s not just limited to black communities either; anywhere that there is poverty, working class people and lack of opportunities etc. there are going to be gangs and crime. See: Glasgow. The media just want people to think it’s solely a black issue. Incidentally, gang violence was decreased in Glasgow because they increased funding into the community, something that the government are not willing to do for black neighbourhoods. Instead, they’d rather just put pointless ‘put down the knife’ messages on chicken boxes.

In fact your whole paragraph is moot because if you actually bothered to do your research, which you didn’t do because you don’t care you just couldn’t wait to derail the topic of racism to talk about ‘black-on-black’ crime (which isn’t a thing btw), you would know that SO much work by black people goes into helping out other vulnerable black people in the community out e.g. workshops, former gang members giving talks to the youth, black figures funding scholarships etc etc.
 
They’re not trying to goad the police into doing something, what the feck are you on about? They’re protesting not just for our country but for the world. Systematic racism is a thing in our country too - we just don’t have guns.

Whatever the police do is on them.
Have you watched the videos that I quoted ? Looking back you had quoted a different tweet so apologies for that.
 
Great post. Not sure the guy is racist, but he definitely showed his ignorance and disregard to the severity of the issue and how complex it is.
With the same certain he has that Floyd's death is not about racism, is my certainty that he is racist.
Dude literally says its pathetic that they making this about race.
No empathy, no understanding, just calls what is happening pathetic.
Another person looks at this and say, hey look it may not be about race, but hopefully it can lead to some change regarding the issue. Not him, he thinks what's happening is pathetic. :wenger:
 
So, what are the options open if Gen. Pop. is avoided?
Not a prison expert, but did a quick google search and there's ways of segregating prisoners from the general population. Seems much depends on the type of prison (state or federal), what his charges were and how far the prison he's in is from where he worked.

Looks like there's something called protective custody - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protective_custody

Also, here's some quora links that address the topic:
https://www.quora.com/When-law-enfo...nced-to-prison-where-do-they-serve-their-time
https://www.quora.com/What-happens-to-cops-in-jail

I'd imagine Chauvin would never be allowed to mix with the general population.
 
The tendency to fear and expect bad outcomes from black people when you're walking down the street late at night is down to stereotypes but those stereotypes are rooted in real life experiences. It's laughable to suggest that it's just based on what people see in movies or TV. If you are much more likely to be robbed by a black person than an Asian, for example, why is it racist to feel more worried when you see group of black people somewhere late at night than a group of Asians or whites? It's just common sense and it's the reality we live in.

These protests won't bring any real change because they only concentrate on the faults of the system and how it acts towards black population. They completely ignore the other side of the equation which is black urban community and its failings. Poverty, drug dealing, gang culture and violence are rampant in many neighborhoods where African-Americans are a majority. If black lives matter, why not concentrate on parents staying together and raising children, prioritizing education and trying their best to keep kids at school and off streets. But that's a much harder and longer road with plenty of setbacks and no guaranteed short term success. It's much easier to just point fingers at the system, decry white privilege and demand change from others than look at yourself in a mirror and wonder what you can do to improve situation in your own family, your own community etc. You can't expect the world around you to change and not doing your bit. And I don't mean making selfies with friends at protests while giving a finger to the cops.

Wow. That just got worse and worse as it went down, didn’t it?

Kudos.
 
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The tendency to fear and expect bad outcomes from black people when you're walking down the street late at night is down to stereotypes but those stereotypes are rooted in real life experiences. It's laughable to suggest that it's just based on what people see in movies or TV. If you are much more likely to be robbed by a black person than an Asian, for example, why is it racist to feel more worried when you see group of black people somewhere late at night than a group of Asians or whites? It's just common sense and it's the reality we live in.

These protests won't bring any real change because they only concentrate on the faults of the system and how it acts towards black population. They completely ignore the other side of the equation which is black urban community and its failings. Poverty, drug dealing, gang culture and violence are rampant in many neighborhoods where African-Americans are a majority. If black lives matter, why not concentrate on parents staying together and raising children, prioritizing education and trying their best to keep kids at school and off streets. But that's a much harder and longer road with plenty of setbacks and no guaranteed short term success. It's much easier to just point fingers at the system, decry white privilege and demand change from others than look at yourself in a mirror and wonder what you can do to improve situation in your own family, your own community etc. You can't expect the world around you to change and not doing your bit. And I don't mean making selfies with friends at protests while giving a finger to the cops.

If we ever needed a written version of white privilege then you've nailed it. You're utterly clueless.