Sky desperate for it to kick off.
Protests following the killing of George Floyd
- Thread starter Abizzz
- Start date
Heh. And here I thought I was going crazy taking a fairly critical stance towards mass protests outside the US. Because of the current sad circumstances of Corvid the question has to be allowed to be asked what the goals of these protests are. If it is just about showing support and raising awareness of the terrible situation in the US, then there has to be a better way of working towards it that does not include putting not only the protesters but also those whom they have contact with in the next few weeks in potentialy mortal danger.
What I do believe is that there are two different conversations to be had here:
The first one is about the root of the problem, the racism (or discrimination based on gender, nationaity, religion, sexual orientation and so on) in itself: the mindset that a difference in a person be it what it may makes someone less deserving of respect, chances and well being. In an ideal world we might grow past stupid prejudices but in my opinion too many people are just too damn comfortable to fall into thought processes based on stereotypes( because they are easy, lazy and don´t require muss empathy) to ever erase the issue it completely. I also believe that while governments and administation can and should influence perception in a more fair direction (in my eyes the greatest tool for that has to be education), their reach has limits in that regard. Administrations can try to educate its citizen, but it can´t force them what to think.
The second topic is the consequenses born out of the discrimination: violence, abuse, mistreatment, fear, inequality in terms of chances, etc. This is where the political and administrative systems have to come into play and do their best to protect the disadvanted people from it.
If the protests are aimed for improvements of the second part, then that is all fair and good, but in that case they also have to be aimed towards the specific challenges their systems face. In difference to what some posters in this thread suggested the Western systems don´t completely mirror each other, but from what I gather from the protests they protest against the same things. I don´t dare to comment of the situation in the UK as I lack crucial insight to actually do so properly, but at least in Germany, where just yesterday was a 15k strong protest in Berlin, many regulations, checks and balances the people in the US are fighting so desperately right now (high accountability and entry barrier for law enforcement, extensive police training aimed for deescelation rather than intimidation, fairness in law and court, freeer education and so on) are already in place here.
That does not mean that the system is not flawed, even deeply in some areas, because it can get circumvented and abused in certain circumstances, but gathering together in masses in the midst of a pandemic to hold up signs and shout phrases is not the only way to even the playing field and combat racism and discrimination in general.
To deny that this is not an issue in Germany aswell would make me a liar, a hypocrite and a blind man. I´m part of one of the systems in question as both a public servant and educator (I oversee the apprenticeships of a medium sized German administration) and was smacked over the head with such an issue a few years ago when the political heat of the immigration crisis was still burning high. It was then when my picks for the next round of apprentices was questioned for the first and only time in my career. While a single young bright Syrian girl a year prior was seen as a great symbol for integration and the administation doing their part by my superiors, that tune changed rather drastically when on the next list more than half of the names were by Youths with Syrian background. There was no blatant racist talk in the discussion, it was more sublte and included terms like political climate, supporting (IMO less qualified) local kids and making the citizenship uncomfortable. I was first advised, then nicely asked and ultmately ordered to adjust the list. I refused which then lead to a heated two hour long discussion between me, my direct superior (head of HR) and even the Mayor which ended with me threatening to resign from a position I worked and studied for near a decade. That did the trick in shuting them up.
The reactions in my social circle to that story were curious aswell. They ranged from agreeing in principle but berating me for my stubbornes and recklessness to lifting me up to some social hero status, which weirded me out to no end as nothing I did was politically motivated but that I simply chose the people who were most qualified in my estimation. The "best" reaction came from my brother-in-law, though, a protester of for and against everything, who completely flew off the handle and accused me of selling out my integrity for staying in my position. My only response to that was that me resigning would have solved nothing and that my replacement would most certainly be a more loyal follower of orders with less of a mind of his/her own.
I apologize for derailing the thread a bit with this small personal story. It was just to show that there are many other ways to stand for things people believe in. At least in Germany there are many groups and organizations that would welcome help to help disadvanted parts of the society, be it via donations or working for them. People could actually join the system and work towards getting to positions where influences can be made, no matter how local or small they are.
In halfway normal times I would berate nobody for making their voice known in protests, but tragically we don´t live in normal times right now and even something like gathering together with a lot of likeminded people can have costly censequenses.
Of course you knew. The sad thing is you won’t reflect on this and change. You are having to pretend to be mixed race and pretend you don’t know what certain phrases mean to argue. But instead of changing and growing you’ll just think “man RedCafe is so liberal”.
Pretending to be mixed race to make a point. Awful
It's absolutely repugnant.
Scumbags attacking horses in London
I don’t think he’s racist, or that he’s said anything racist, but his response to the protests is odd as he’s posted several times that people should be going back to work and schools should be opening in the UK. That’s exceedingly more likely to spread the virus than the protests we’re witnessing.
He mocked colleagues and people worried about returning to normal life so I don’t see how he can now turn around and condemn these protests because of the pandemic.
Personally, it is amazing to see the world rally around this matter globally, just shite that it had to kick off during an unprecedented time in the world.
I'd say it is a concern, I understand and fully behind why it needs to happen, but at the same time I am genuinely worried about who could die as a result of this that wouldn't have if it didn't take place. So yes, negative comments are bad if its just slamming people and have no care for what it is all about, but acknowledging the reality of what it can cause is different for me and hopefully that's not perceived as negative.
@Man of Steel Did you really just lie about your heritage, just to seek sympathy? That's really pathetic.
The "all lives matter" argument is so fecking daft. Yes we already knew white lives matter, that's kind of the point. Maybe the slow crowd can pretend people are chanting black lives matter too.
Nothing about what is happening in London is over the top
And then go on to delete it to cover his nonsense. Disgraceful. White man pretending to be mixed race, who would have thought.
soon to be a contributing member of the "Libcafe?" thread..
Exactly
Out of interest, why aren't London cops policing todays BLM protest wearing masks?
Yes maybe he's wrong on that stuff but he's clearly not a racist and it was a dick move to call him one.
Also spot on.
It depends on if it causes a second spike, if lots of people die and the economy tanks even further then I think the protests will end up being very divisive and probably counterproductive If a second spike doesn’t happen (my guess) then the protest will likely have a positive effect for black people politically.
From what I've seen the most cited goals are the demilitarization of the police, representation within polcing structures, ending Citizens United, medicaid for all, and deprivitization of the prison system.
Those are worth marching for.
Straight back to the victim role? Righty.
This retconning and excuse making would make Trump proud.
Grim aspect of the media that is not acknowledged as much as it should be. Wouldn’t be surprised if some media outlets in the past have tried to instigate clashes in these sort of protests.
Did you quote the wrong post? I’m talking about people dying from covid. Which is more likely to kill a black person than a white person.
It’s utterly ridiculous isn’t it.
Noodles' tone is always one that takes the piss. But his point is a pretty solid one.
True. I can't honestly see how it doesn't cause a second spike, probably not as bad as the first, and dependant on what country it is, but I'd think it will have some effects. Doubtful it will be the total lockdown kind, but enough to maybe end the lives of people who otherwise wouldn't have died maybe.
As many also eluded to this, I really hope these protests do spark change, but how many times have we gone down this road before and nothing changes? Or very little. So here's to hoping it does bring about change. One could argue that we are already seeing some change, the fact that the Police in States have really been outed for their sheer brutally surely has to lead to some major changes in that regard, I hope.
As for across the world, it will be interesting to see how other protests will affect change to a meaningful degree. I think of racism in football and how long its taking to eradicate it from there, but without drastic measures it won't really change much either. The protests outside of USA have kinda of been quite peaceful for the most part, and not hoping for it to turn violent in anyway, but just hope its not too "normal" that it won't affect any real changes.
It isn't it is also to highlight the fact we have an issue in the UK too.
His isn't a racist view. You need to work on your comprehension.
Don’t worry mate, we’ve all lied at one time or another about our skin colour to help win credibility in an online argument, I’m sure it’ll be forgotten in a couple of days.
But in the racism thread......
Really? You going to act dumb?
Coming across as a mixed race to prove a point is just disgraceful. The fact that a family member had to even suggest it to you is even more crazy, cause you don't see it yourself.
You regretting the consequences more than regretting the reality of what you did and what it says of you.
There’ll be some racists using it as an angle for sure (nothing a quick background check won’t help with figuring out) .
But blanketing everyone who mentions it with that doesn’t really make sense when you think about it.
People have spent months , some posters in here genuinely concerned about the lives being lost and being critical and expressing concern at large gatherings and anything that would increase a spread. You can’t then expect these same people to completely turn off to what’s going on now with the protest, even if it’s for a good cause.
Can’t this just be a situation where both sides of the argument are actually right? And that there are positives and negatives from both?
Why do we have to start going down the road of labelling this thought process as ‘racist’. That in itself makes no sense because these large and close proximity gatherings effect black and Asians just as it does whites if not more.
You’re actually becoming a bit ridiculous now. You were rampaging through the corona thread about the government and people not doing enough to stop the spread. Now you’re in here calling posters racist for expressing concern that these protests will cause a spread.
If you didn't care, why go out of your way to tell people you something you not just to get your point across, that's just silly.
Fair point. The poster called his view racist rather than Noodle racist, but the post in question wasn’t racist. You were right to point that out. I find his constant demeaning of the protestors tiring but he’s entitled to his view.
He’s argued a lot in the Covid thread that people should be going back to work and the schools should be opening. I don’t see how he can turn around now and condemn the protests when it’s a minuscule fraction of the population compared to the amount protesting. I can understand if someone has been consistent about the lockdown and then condemning the protests, but I don’t see how Noodle can say that when he’s been advocating people going back to work and school.
To be fair, you can be white (or at least appear white) and still be mixed race.
It's nearly summer, maybe he tanned a bit?
And my point stands. The Government response to covid19 has been pathetic, and those protesting today have the right to protest, esp when Government have reduced the threat level.
There is sequencing and a timeline to those views. Both views can be independently held .
What?
Which they should. It is totally unnecessary to enter a thread discussing the issue of police brutality towards black lives and the death of George Floyd and say it. If you want to discuss all lives matter create a separate thread and do it there.