Premier League condemns ‘tragedy chanting’

justsomebloke said:
We could start by agreeing that chants mocking actual events where real people have lost their lives is beyond the pale, maybe? Me, I'd throw death threat chants (as in the above quoted) in there too.
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When have I even suggested that they aren't?
You still haven't answered the question. Who draws the line?

What about 'she said no' chants? Should people be banned for that?
'Feed the scourers' 'we all hate Leeds scum'

Where exactly is the line?
 
I never understand why fans choose to make chants about the opposition.

It comes across as incredibly stupid and small time.

Get behind our own team and support us that way.
 
JB7 said:
Your post was ridiculous so I laughed at it.

There is nothing illegal about singing vile songs or pretending to be an aeroplane. It's not very nice obviously but it's not a crime, so referring to it as "possible racist abuse" or comparing it to that is nothing short of ridiculous. And suggesting people receive are made to do "community service" or receive "some jail time" for something that isn't a crime is laughable.

Equally Leeds aren't going to dish out lifetime bans to everyone seen impersonating an aeroplane because next week their crowd would be down to about 600.


What a ridiculous take. Our end was outstanding yesterday for the most part.


Because Leeds wouldn't have anyone left in the stadium in they banned them all. You could look to your right at any given second and see somebody aeroplaning behind the goal we attacked second half. It was constant.
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I can definitely appreciate your response instead of the laughing emoji and yes it is slightly over the top for this kind of fan behaviour as my post was more towards racially abusing players which seems to happen all too frequently.

londonredmaniac said:
Racism is a crime, defined as such under common law.

Singing songs about planes crashing and people getting stabbed is horrible...but not illegal. So jail time, community service and fines are not anything like enforceable.

Bannings are possible of course.

The atmosphere at United Leeds games, especially Elland Road is toxic.
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Can't disagree with your post.
 
Waynne said:
I can definitely appreciate your response instead of the laughing emoji and yes it is slightly over the top for this kind of fan behaviour as my post was more towards racially abusing players which seems to happen all too frequently.
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I agree with you in terms of how racism should be looked at by clubs and by the authorities. However my issue with what you're saying is that racism doesn't come into the chanting about Munich, Istanbul etc, it's people of all colours and backgrounds participating - rightly or wrongly. Like this thread has a purpose in terms of poor chanting or signalling from fans of both clubs, but racism doesn't enter into that at all.
 
The thread is specifically about tragedy or disaster-related chants, so there's no need for some people to try and bring race into it.

The Munich chants are so inevitable at Elland Road it's hard to be shocked by it, tasteless as they are. It'll probably fade over time and the policing of non-illegal chants feels a bit draconian.
 
TBH if I look back to some of the things I chanted in my youth I am ashamed, nothing like the disaster/tragedy related chants, and nowt racist but I what I am saying is that we all need to look at ourselves as individuals and take responsibility to grow.

For me how anyone fails to connect with opposition fans beyond the badge saddens me, I feel no more pride than when we all come together in the face of some horrible thing, be it applauding an injured player off the field or observing a heart felt moments silence.

I love to hate Leeds, I love to hate Liverpool, but they are part of what makes Utd who we are, I love nothing more than drinking with friends who are opposition fans and having some friendly banter about it.

We do not exist in a vacuum, we should all acknowledge English football as a whole and have some banter, some niggle, and then appreciate the entertainment and comradery, tragedy hits everyone at some point, have some compassion.
 
Zippycup said:
Again..
Who draws the line? You haven't answered that question.

"He's gonna die, He's gonna die, Joel Glazer's gonna die, How we kill him I don't know, Cut him up from head to toe, All I know Glazer's gonna die"

That's pretty fecking offensive. I haven't heard one United fan condemn that song. Should all those fans be banned?

I could name you endless chants that somebody will find offensive with.
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If racist chants weren't illegal in the UK (they aren't in a lot of countries) would you want people banned for singing them?
 
watched the game on tv yesterday in a packed bar, so was difficult at times to hear what was being chanted. Did I hear Leeds sing about Greenwood or am I confusing that with something else?
 
There needs to be VAR on crowd chanting. Lee Mason will probably forget to listen to the words.
 
Zippycup said:
When have I even suggested that they aren't?
You still haven't answered the question. Who draws the line?

What about 'she said no' chants? Should people be banned for that?
'Feed the scourers' 'we all hate Leeds scum'

Where exactly is the line?
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Mate, no one's going to answer that question. Because there's no simple single final answer. As with so much in this world. So what?
 
poleglass red said:
watched the game on tv yesterday in a packed bar, so was difficult at times to hear what was being chanted. Did I hear Leeds sing about Greenwood or am I confusing that with something else?
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They were DEFINITELY chanting about Greenwood. Something along the lines of “Greenwood is scum, just like you.” I mean really clever and highbrow stuff. How anyone can pay a ticket to watch the game and spend the whole game shouting fu**ing scum at the top of their lungs like whoever was closest to the mic did needs some kind of counselling. Just enjoy the game ffs.
 
Elland Road is a fecking cesspit so it’s no surprise. Just disappointed a certain section of our support were dragged down to their level as well.
 
justsomebloke said:
Mate, no one's going to answer that question. Because there's no simple single final answer. As with so much in this world. So what?
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Exactly. Yes there are extremes in terms of offensive chants but it boils down to personal opinion and how much it affects you.
I've used Rangers and Celtic several times as an example. Even if you go down to the lower leagues you hear offensive chants. It's everywhere. At every level. Even grassroots.

The only thing the clubs can do is ban people but they aren't going to ban thousands of people.
 
Waynne said:
Make strong examples of those who are caught.

- Lifetime bans from all games
- Community service
- Hefty fines
- Some jail time

All of the above will do.
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Zippycup said:
What the feck. Jail time. Hefty Fines. Community service.
I'm not sure if you're being serious here.
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Jail time?

There is a difference between offensiveness and inciting hate.

Offensive, Distasteful and childish yes but if you start locking people up for it then gou remove free speech, the government start locking people up for being offensive/critical towards the government and you have the end of democracy right there!

Unfortunately there is a price to pay for democracy and free speech and that is that people may get offended but idiots saying stupid things but it is far better than the alternative
 
Jippy said:
The thread is specifically about tragedy or disaster-related chants, so there's no need for some people to try and bring race into it.

The Munich chants are so inevitable at Elland Road it's hard to be shocked by it, tasteless as they are. It'll probably fade over time and the policing of non-illegal chants feels a bit draconian.
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Munich happened 65 years ago, it's hardly fading is it?
 
I don't really understand why with today's technology you can't zoom in on everyone singing, cross reference that to their seat and ban them.

Forgive my ignorance but is there a photo ID required when having a season ticket? If so they could easily tell if its the right person to avoid banning anyone who just used the ticket for a game.
 
noelyman said:
They were DEFINITELY chanting about Greenwood. Something along the lines of “Greenwood is scum, just like you.” I mean really clever and highbrow stuff. How anyone can pay a ticket to watch the game and spend the whole game shouting fu**ing scum at the top of their lungs like whoever was closest to the mic did needs some kind of counselling. Just enjoy the game ffs.
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cheers pal for clarifying that, I was sure I heard them sing something about him.
 
Zippycup said:
Exactly. Yes there are extremes in terms of offensive chants but it boils down to personal opinion and how much it affects you.
I've used Rangers and Celtic several times as an example. Even if you go down to the lower leagues you hear offensive chants. It's everywhere. At every level. Even grassroots.

The only thing the clubs can do is ban people but they aren't going to ban thousands of people.
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Well, there's this thing called "judgment" you see. You use it to make decisions about things that can't be neatly divided into absolutes. You'd be surprised how useful it can be.
 
noelyman said:
They were DEFINITELY chanting about Greenwood. Something along the lines of “Greenwood is scum, just like you.” I mean really clever and highbrow stuff. How anyone can pay a ticket to watch the game and spend the whole game shouting fu**ing scum at the top of their lungs like whoever was closest to the mic did needs some kind of counselling. Just enjoy the game ffs.
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He's Yorkshire like you.
 
Chairman Steve said:
I definitely made out Munich chants in the game. I did not hear any Turkey related chants about Leeds although Sky probably faded the mics out once they heard the Munich chants.

I don’t condone either side and we shouldn’t have stooped to their level if they indeed started it. I expect nothing less from Leeds fans though. These are the fans who went to White Hart Lane and did hissing noises 20 years ago.
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I am watching game now. The United fans are singing Istanbul over and over in the first half.
 
justsomebloke said:
Well, there's this thing called "judgment" you see. You use it to make decisions about things that can't be neatly divided into absolutes. You'd be surprised how useful it can be.
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Go for it. You tell me where the line is and who makes these calls? Who defines what is and isn't offensive and wgat is. Down to the minute detail.

So tell me. Do all the below fall into your offensive categories. If so. There won't he many fans left at matches.

Threaten to kill?
Threaten violence?
Mocking tragedies?
Xenophobia?
Personal abuse to player and family?

All the above have beven sang at Old Trafford this season. By large sections of the crowd. Do we ban them all.

Why end it at stadiums? Why not bring it into football forums. How many posters on here would be banned?

Actually. Why don't we all just say nothing through fear of offending.
 
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Zippycup said:
Go for it. You tell me where the line is and who makes these calls? Who defines what is and isn't offensive and wgat is. Down to the minute detail.

So tell me. Do all the below fall into your offensive categories. If so. There won't he many fans left at matches.

Threaten to kill?
Threaten violence?
Mocking tragedies?
Xenophobia?
Personal abuse to player and family?

All the above have beven sang at Old Trafford this season. By large sections of the crowd. Do we ban them all.

Why end it at stadiums? Why not bring it into football forums. How many posters on here would be banned?

Actually. Why don't we all just say nothing through fear of offending.
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You're really not listening, are you. It's perfectly possible to make the necessary distinctions without doing so with finality and down to the minute detail. This is how the world works and there is no need for absoluteness, unless you're an obsessive pedant. Hence, I'm mocking your insistence on same, which you hilariously seem to think is an actual argument against making any distinctions.

Who should decide? Well, on this point and from a practical viewpoint it seems perfectly sensible and reasonable to me if the FA and the clubs do so.
 
justsomebloke said:
You're really not listening, are you. It's perfectly possible to make the necessary distinctions without doing so with finality and down to the minute detail. This is how the world works and there is no need for absoluteness, unless you're an obsessive pedant. Hence, I'm mocking your insistence on same, which you hilariously seem to think is an actual argument against making any distinctions.

Who should decide? Well, on this point and from a practical viewpoint it seems perfectly sensible and reasonable to me if the FA and the clubs do so.
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Do it then.
Make the distinctions then?

You tell me what is and isn't acceptable in regards to chants you hear regularly at Old Trafford?

Is threatening to kill someone acceptable? What about Xenophobia?
 
Zippycup said:
It's a silly question.
Racism is illegal. What's next? If you could legally kill someone would you be OK with it?
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Hate speech laws are a relatively new thing, and aren't a thing in many countries so, I don't see how racist chants are analogous to murder. Silly question or not, answer it, perhaps?

Edit: I'm not trying to catch you out, it was a genuine question. If you say "hey feck it, I don't like it but if it isn't illegal then it isn't my place to say" that's totally fair enough
 
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Fabio Rochemback said:
Hate speech laws are a relatively new thing, and aren't a thing in many countries so, I don't see how racist chants are analogous to murder. Silly question or not, answer it, perhaps?

Edit: I'm not trying to catch you out, it was a genuine question. If you say "hey feck it, I don't like it but if it isn't illegal then it isn't my place to say" that's totally fair enough
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Its an impossible question to answer because my thoughts on it hold no weight. Factually one is illegal and the other isn't. It's near impossible to define hate speech without it having a base to fall on.

If I could wave a magic wand I'd rid all football chants that mock tragedy, racism or homophobia, but I'd keep chants that mock rivals as I think it's good for the game.

The moment we try to Police speech based on opinion is a dark day for the country.

As I've said from the start. How many people are truly offended by Leeds fans mocking Munich and how much is it down to tribalism?
 
Zippycup said:
Its an impossible question to answer because my thoughts on it hold no weight. Factually one is illegal and the other isn't. It's near impossible to define hate speech without it having a base to fall on.

If I could wave a magic wand I'd rid all football chants that mock tragedy, racism or homophobia, but I'd keep chants that mock rivals as I think it's good for the game.

The moment we try to Police speech based on opinion is a dark day for the country.

As I've said from the start. How many people are truly offended by Leeds fans mocking Munich and how much is it down to tribalism?
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Well, I can agree with most of that. Probably best left there mate.
 
Zippycup said:
Its an impossible question to answer because my thoughts on it hold no weight. Factually one is illegal and the other isn't. It's near impossible to define hate speech without it having a base to fall on.

If I could wave a magic wand I'd rid all football chants that mock tragedy, racism or homophobia, but I'd keep chants that mock rivals as I think it's good for the game.

The moment we try to Police speech based on opinion is a dark day for the country.

As I've said from the start. How many people are truly offended by Leeds fans mocking Munich and how much is it down to tribalism?
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Well you are wrong about your thought processes have no weight, how do you think the laws that do exist that make racism a crime,? They happened because people like you and me voted to make them happen

Common sense should tell you what is and isn't offensive, what is and what isn't acceptable
 
Red in STL said:
Well you are wrong about your thought processes have no weight, how do you think the laws that do exist that make racism a crime,? They happened because people like you and me voted to make them happen

Common sense should tell you what is and isn't offensive, what is and what isn't acceptable
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You voted to make racism illegal? Go you. How can I vote to make being a Scouser illegal?

No. It's not common sense. It's subjective. That's the problem.
Fans singing about killing Joel Glazer is offensive but subjectively we know its only a chant about wanting him to leave the club.

Should it be banned on the premise that it's threatening the life of someone? You tell me.
 
Zippycup said:
You voted to make racism illegal? Go you. How can I vote to make being a Scouser illegal?

No. It's not common sense. It's subjective. That's the problem.
Fans singing about killing Joel Glazer is offensive but subjectively we know its only a chant about wanting him to leave the club.

Should it be banned on the premise that it's threatening the life of someone? You tell me.
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Politicians voted to make racism illegal, they did so because the public put pressure on them to do so, most of social justice laws came about because the public demanded them

As for chants about Joel Glazer, it is both common sense and subjective, it doesn't have to be one or the other, you appear to see everything as a black and white issue

As for banning, I haven't said a word about banning anything
 
Red in STL said:
Politicians voted to make racism illegal, they did so because the public put pressure on them to do so, most of social justice laws came about because the public demanded them

As for chants about Joel Glazer, it is both common sense and subjective, it doesn't have to be one or the other, you appear to see everything as a black and white issue

As for banning, I haven't said a word about banning anything
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Mate. Most people in the UK currently want enough money to eat and heat their homes. Your fault is thinking that politicians give a feck about you.


It's not common sense and subjective. I could easily make a case that the fans would kill Joel Glazer if given the chance.
 
Solius said:
I don't really understand why with today's technology you can't zoom in on everyone singing, cross reference that to their seat and ban them.

Forgive my ignorance but is there a photo ID required when having a season ticket? If so they could easily tell if its the right person to avoid banning anyone who just used the ticket for a game.
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Clubs will have to be shamed into doing it.
Then they will suddenly find how easy it is to do it.
 
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