Premier League 20 Seasons Final - Team Polaroid vs Team Gio

[antohan]

There's still time for Owen to make an appearance. He was very close to starting I have to say.

Probably a good call not to start him TBH. If anything is on display here is how you shouldn't tinker with a winning formation.

While not as drastic as Pol's switch, there are question marks over how people would react to Rooney on the left, whether Owen solo upfront actually works, and whether he doesn't make your front three more rigid. It would be the right call if playing on the counter, but it wasn't the best way to start the game. At the very least you risked plenty of people suddenly going "Rooney on the left?" and voting against you before you could even reply.

It's a shame because he has the sort of pace that would trouble Pol's CBs but that space behind them was not going to materialise. In real life though, Pol would be throwing the kitchen sink at you right about now and Owen would certainly be a more significant threat than Zola in the acres of space opening up on the break.

 

[antohan]

the clock is running down and the votes seem to have dried up already...

 

[Polaroid]

Name the six or more then. I've got Gary Neville, Dan Petrescu and Denis Irwin. As I said before, Overmars was a devastating winger at his peak, but his main weapon was pace. In Jones he's coming up against a full-back blessed with considerable pace, so that normal advantage is largely negated.

The 7 other managers in this competition picked Dixon, Sagna, Ivanovic, Neville, Petrescu, Johnson, Irwin, all before you picked Jones
Among those who were not picked, there are the likes of Wes Brown, Henning Berg, Lauren, Gary Kelly, Micah Richards
You could ask any 10 people to see how many would include Rob Jones as the 6 best qualified under the competition criteria

I see that you are picking up the point about Jones' pace being able to largely negate Overmars'
It is not even certain the likes of Clichy can keep up with Overmars and here you are claiming Rob Jones will do it
I wonder if you are gambling that most on here are too young to have seen both players in hoping to get away with such a ludicrous claim
I am certain there are several who are old enough to expose your claim - Rood and Anto among them

As for Le Saux not being of the standard expected at the business end of this competition, how many left-backs are superior? Cole obviously, Irwin's been deployed as a right-back throughout the tournament, there's a case for Evra if we ignore his fall from grace in recent seasons, while Pearce peaked around 89/90. So he's up the top end I would suggest.

Le Saux up at the top end?
Cole and Irwin are at the top end, Evra slightly behind, Pearce a further step down and Le Saux in the next tier below. He is simply not in the same class as those. Pearce at 90% is still better than Le Saux, which explains why Le Saux could only establish himself as first choice in the England squad in his late 20s after Pearce was in his mid 30s. You could do a poll to ask if Le Saux is up the top end with Cole, Irwin and Evra as you claim. I could ask the mods for permission to set up one for you in another thread if you wish.

But this is the mid-1990s - Google didn't exist then. Just because it's not on the internet doesn't mean it didn't happen.

You are the one who claimed it is all over Liverpool websites and forums, so please do not start lecturing about the internet.

I quote you

It's referenced over a range of Liverpool websites and forums.

It's in sufficient common usage to believe it to be correct, much like the Zanetti point I made.

Up to now, you have yet to provide a single link to these websites or a single credible reference to indicate the common usage you claimed, much less establish its authenticity as a quote from Ryan Giggs. Even if I am to take your word for it, who else has Ryan Giggs come up against at that time? has Jones sustained a performance level high enough and long enough as per the competition criteria? same question - how many people would include Rob Jones as the 6 best qualified under the competition criteria? for a relatively barren era of quality right backs, that is a pretty damning indictment!

I can accept you winning this match - like I said before, you are a good manager and a deserving winner. You can win with Jones, Le Saux and Lehmann but that does not change them into Premier League All-time elites (ditto Gary Kelly, a 70s fantasy winner but nowhere near the best of that generation)

 

[Polaroid]

To be fair guys a tactical mess for a mere 10 minutes could cause enough damage to settle a match of this sort of high-end quality.

To be fair though, for this sort of high-end quality final with Premier League all-time elites, carrying lower-end quality like Jones for the remaining 80 minutes would have turned the match around

 

[Polaroid]

Me too, although its still very close. I voted based on the initial strikerless formation.

It was not strikerless, Cutch, not if you read my posts and studied the formation graphic
Henry was not playing as a winger - my posts and the arrow in the formation graphic clearly stated that he was to start from a wide position and make diagonal runs to take up a striking position in the box
Simple enough IMO but nobody understood
What was bemusing was that Henry and Zola were basically in the same position outside the corner of the box (refer to the formation graphics) but people have a far bigger issue with Henry going from out to in (which he has done throughout his time with Arsenal) than Zola

It really was a mess, he just out thought himself I think.

I concur
Out-thought myself and expected too much from the voters
I probably pissed it away not correcting that dreadful start earlier no disrespect to Gio but i think Anto would have won with my squad

 

[Ish]

Good match up. Attacking talent on the pitch would be just ridiculous

These votes are swayed more by the names on the teams, as opposed to any tactical "nous" by the managers. So you probably played the wrong strategy in the final here Pol.

There's still a bit of time left to make it a more interesting.

 

[Polaroid]

Good match up. Attacking talent on the pitch would be just ridiculous

These votes are swayed more by the names on the teams, as opposed to any tactical "nous" by the managers. So you probably played the wrong strategy in the final here Pol.

There's still a bit of time left to make it a more interesting.

I concur that I wrongly played the tactical card Ish
Now that we are talking about names, if everyone draws up a list of the Premier League all-time top 3 for each position, what do we get?

Keeper: van der Sar certainly, Lehmann no chance
Right-back: Irwin certainly, Jones no chance
Left-back: Cole certainly, Le Saux no chance
Centre-back: Adams and Ferdinand both in top 3 with Vidic, Desailly and Campbell completes the top 5 (Stam has less than 100 appearances)
Midfield: Vieira in top 3 with Scholes and Keane, Gerrard and Fabregas completes the top 5, Lampard just outside, Essien another step behind and Alonso a further tier below
Left wing: Overmars certainly
Right wing: Ronaldo certainly, Valencia no
Forwards: Henry and Cantona in top 3 with Shearer, Ruud and Bergkamp completes the top 5, Rooney outside the top 5 with Drogba, Zola the next step down

9 out of my 11 players on the pitch are top 3, Fabregas in top 5 for the midfield position rich in talent
On the other hand, Gio only has 2 compared to my 9 - Ronaldo and Ferdinand in the top 3, Campbell and Gerrard in the top 5 for the centreback and midfield positions rich in talent

Yet somehow, my team is losing out on names? bizarre and perplexing

 

[Gio]

The 7 other managers in this competition picked Dixon, Sagna, Ivanovic, Neville, Petrescu, Johnson, Irwin, all before you picked Jones
Among those who were not picked, there are the likes of Wes Brown, Henning Berg, Lauren, Gary Kelly, Micah Richards
You could ask any 10 people to see how many would include Rob Jones as the 6 best qualified under the competition criteria

None of the other full-backs you mentioned have received this sort of praise.

How did his fellow professionals rate him?

I played with Rob Jones a few times and he was a bit unfortunate with injuries and his best form was probably before I got into the team, when he was as good as probably anything in Europe at the time. He was playing out of his skin and I think if he'd have stayed fit he probably would have gone on to win 70 or 80 caps for England instead of Gary Neville.

Rob was a brilliant right-back when I played with him at Liverpool. Sadly his career was cut down by injury, but he played almost 200 games for us and I thought he was a great defender.

How do Scousers rate him?

Best right back of the last 20 years. If he had remained injury free he would have been a legend. Deffo would have kept Neville out of the England team.

Best right back I've seen at Anfield, closely followed by Markus (Babbel)

Does anyone else remember souness switching jones to left back against villa in the fa cup winning season just to do a man marking job on the then very speedy and highly rated tony daley? Thats how good he was defensive full back, attacking full back, man to man job he could it all

Did Giggs really say Jones was his toughest opponent?

His accomplished display led Giggs to describe Jones as the toughest opponent he had faced.

http://merseyreds.tripod.com/articles/robjones.htm

Giggs later described Jones as his toughest opponent.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ntus-best-debut-youve-seen.html#ixzz29Y5S2W2D

Saw an interview with Giggs (who was admittedly still relatively young) on some footie programme, and he said Jones was the best defender he'd ever played against.

I like Ryan Giggs as much as it's possible for me to like a United player. Because he was a terrific player who matured into a good player who never struck me as an utter cnut. I remember him describing Rob Jones as his toughest opponent years ago

Jones was no Zanetti, the toughest opponent Giggs would face during his career, but he was a cut above the likes of Micah Richards, Glen Johnson, Wes Brown, Lauren and Gary Kelly. It's the familiarity factor which is why he wasn't picked earlier. For example, look at the efforts Antohan had to make to convince us that Fernando Morena was a top striker in the 50s draft.

Was Jones fast or slow?

when left-back Rob Jones was moved to the right in the second half, Saunders and Souness saw this speedy player as the solution to their problem ... Rob Jones was undoubtedly Liverpool's most exciting full-back for years, using his skill and speed to cause trouble in opposing ranks

I was the fastest in the team (Crewe) ... It was a massive step up but it worked for me. I was quite fast and I did OK against Ryan

Look at him rip Leeds United apart here (specifically 0.25, 1.27 and 2.44):

 

[Gio]

Keeper: van der Sar certainly, Lehmann no chance
Right-back: Irwin certainly, Jones no chance
Left-back: Cole certainly, Le Saux no chance
Centre-back: Adams and Ferdinand both in top 3 with Vidic, Desailly and Campbell completes the top 5 (Stam has less than 100 appearances)
Midfield: Vieira in top 3 with Scholes and Keane, Gerrard and Fabregas completes the top 5, Lampard just outside, Essien another step behind and Alonso a further tier below
Left wing: Overmars certainly
Right wing: Ronaldo certainly, Valencia no
Forwards: Henry and Cantona in top 3 with Shearer, Ruud and Bergkamp completes the top 5, Rooney outside the top 5 with Drogba, Zola the next step down

This is just completely arbitrary though. Cantona's now a better Premiership striker than Shearer? Van der Sar was signed by middling Fulham aged 30 - a goalkeeper's peak years - yet he's better than one or both of Petr Cech and David Seaman. Desailly as good as Sol Campbell in the Premiership during which time Campbell received the following awards:

• FIFA World Cup Team of the Tournament: 2002
• UEFA European Championship Team of the Tournament: 2004
• PFA Team of the Year: 1999, 2003, 2004

While Desailly during his Chelsea days received none of that recognition. Still a very good defender, but not a patch on his Milan best.

 

[antohan]

The Giggsy quote debate. Did he? Didn't he? There's a great game on (still stuck, unbelievable) and all we hear from the managers is about some random quote 15 or so years ago.

I have very little recollection of Jones myself. Decent fullback, but no lasting impression beyond that. I would expect to have one if he had anywhere near Overmars' pace, but that's not definitive proof of anything. A Youtube clip would be far more reliable!

In any case, the greatest disservice from all this is depicting Overmars as a one-dimensional pace merchant, which he was far from being. I can't think of many RBs who could be trusted to deal with an Henry-Overmars double act on that flank (before people run away to dig up quotes from the semi, Pol played differently there).

It's a Zanetti/Thuram level job and they would have a tough game ahead. Facing that threat with Rob Jones just doesn't feel right at all.

 

[Polaroid]

None of the other full-backs you mentioned have received this sort of praise.

Yes, unlike Jones who was praised by his teammates McManaman and Carragher, the other fullbacks I have mentioned, among them Neville, Irwin, Petrescu etc has never received this sort of praise from anyone

How did his fellow professionals rate him?

You should change it to how his fellow Liverpool teammates rated him
And for good measure, while we are at Liverpool teammates lavishing praise on each other, throw in this one Gerrard had for Joe Cole

"Messi can do some amazing things, but anything he can do Joe can do as well, if not better."

How do Scousers rate him?

From Liverpool forums?
As strict the quality control of Redcafe compared to other football forums, I am sure some gems can be found, like the one you quoted PeterStorey on, saying Keown > Adams

Did Giggs really say Jones was his toughest opponent?

http://merseyreds.tripod.com/articles/robjones.htm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ntus-best-debut-youve-seen.html#ixzz29Y5S2W2D

From your link

Plucked from Crewe by Graeme Souness, Jones - then only 19 - made his top flight bow against Manchester United ... just 48 hours after arriving at Anfield.

His accomplished display led Giggs to describe Jones as the toughest opponent he had faced.

So after his display against Giggs in that 1991 game, Giggs was interviewed where he called him his toughest opponent?
I accept that - Giggs, at that time, regarded Jones as the toughest opponent he had faced up until then
The Giggs who was starting the 8th league game of his career and had yet to turn 18
Like what I said earlier, who else has Ryan Giggs come up against at that time? has Jones sustained a performance level high enough and long enough as per the competition criteria? same question - how many people would include Rob Jones as the 6 best qualified under the competition criteria? for a relatively barren era of quality right backs, that is a pretty damning indictment!

Jones was no Zanetti, the toughest opponent Giggs would face during his career, but he was a cut above the likes of Micah Richards, Glen Johnson, Wes Brown, Lauren and Gary Kelly. It's the familiarity factor which is why he wasn't picked earlier. For example, look at the efforts Antohan had to make to convince us that Fernando Morena was a top striker in the 50s draft.

The 7 other managers picked Dixon, Sagna, Ivanovic, Neville, Petrescu, Johnson, Irwin. Among those who were not picked, there are the likes of Wes Brown, Henning Berg, Lauren, Gary Kelly, Micah Richards. From all these players, how many people would include Rob Jones as the 6 best qualified under the competition criteria? You said in an earlier post that only Neville, Petrescu and Irwin are better qualified under the competition criteria (performance level over a sustained period). That makes him 4th in your reckoning. Poll a hundred people and see how many would agree with that.

By the way, Morena was playing in Uruguay in the 1970s. Jones was playing in the Premier League during the 90s. I cannot believe you are equating the two of them re familiarity

Was Jones fast or slow?

Are you backpedaling from your claim that Jones is as fast or very close to Overmars?
People should be able to see clearly from the videos whether Jones is on Overmars' level in terms of speed

 

[Polaroid]

This is just completely arbitrary though. Cantona's now a better Premiership striker than Shearer? Van der Sar was signed by middling Fulham aged 30 - a goalkeeper's peak years - yet he's better than one or both of Petr Cech and David Seaman. Desailly as good as Sol Campbell in the Premiership during which time Campbell received the following awards:

• FIFA World Cup Team of the Tournament: 2002
• UEFA European Championship Team of the Tournament: 2004
• PFA Team of the Year: 1999, 2003, 2004

While Desailly during his Chelsea days received none of that recognition. Still a very good defender, but not a patch on his Milan best.

What is your list then? even without starting a thread to compile everyone's lists, anyone can see how many players from both sides will feature in their own top 3

Where do you rank van der Sar then? below Lehmann?

Where did I say that Cantona is a better Premiership striker than Shearer? I said "Henry and Cantona in top 3 with Shearer". Having problems comprehending that phrase? Is Rooney and Zola better than those 3? Are they even in the top 5?

Campbell is not a patch on the Desailly of Milan
Since you want to bring up international exploits, the Desailly of Chelsea (1998-2004) was a World and European Champion, captaining France from 2000 to 2004, lifting two more Confederations Cups along the way
And you want to bring up domestic awards (Gerrard was in 7 PFAs compared to Scholes' 2 by the way), Desailly was chosen in the Premier League Overseas Team of the decade

And lets hear what your favourite scousers have to say about Desailly after selecting him in their perfect XI (finally someone who is not their own teammate)
Michael Owen on Marcel Desailly
"With some defenders you think he’s not strong, he’s not so quick or whatever and try to play against that weakness. But Desailly was virtually impossible to play against. He was strong, quick, and good on the ball."

Jamie Carragher on Desailly
He loved the big occasions. Whenever we used to play against him at Anfield he used to play so well that, to be honest, it was a case of men against boys.

If you want more, there is Gullit and Laudrup
Ruud Gullit on Desailly
A very strong defender and excellent in the air, which is something you need. He also had the kind of pace and power that would frighten attackers into making a mistake.

Brian Laudrup on Desailly
Definitely the hardest player to come up against – it was nearly impossible to get past him because, for a player of his physique, he had incredible balance. It was always good to have him on your team, because he did the work of three men. He was so good that he filled his offensive players with confidence. You knew, with him on the pitch, you’d never get caught on the counter-attack.

So is putting Desailly in the Premier League top 5 ludicrous in your opinion?

 

[Polaroid]

In any case, the greatest disservice from all this is depicting Overmars as a one-dimensional pace merchant, which he was far from being. I can't think of many RBs who could be trusted to deal with an Henry-Overmars double act on that flank (before people run away to dig up quotes from the semi, Pol played differently there).

It's a Zanetti/Thuram level job and they would have a tough game ahead. Facing that threat with Rob Jones just doesn't feel right at all.

Maldini did not have an easy time


But Rob Jones, the Liverpool and Premier league legend, to nullify Overmars? "no worries!" says Gio

 

[Ish]

For interest sake, at what age did Desailly move to Chelsea? My fuzzy memory thinks he enjoyed his best years at AC Milan, though he was still a beast at Chelsea, I think a argument can be made that he isn't "top 5".

I wouldn't go as far as saying it's a ludicrous claim though.

 

[Polaroid]

I concur that I wrongly played the tactical card Ish
Now that we are talking about names, if everyone draws up a list of the Premier League all-time top 3 for each position, what do we get?

Keeper: van der Sar certainly, Lehmann no chance
Right-back: Irwin certainly, Jones no chance
Left-back: Cole certainly, Le Saux no chance
Centre-back: Adams and Ferdinand both in top 3 with Vidic, Desailly and Campbell completes the top 5 (Stam has less than 100 appearances)
Midfield: Vieira in top 3 with Scholes and Keane, Gerrard and Fabregas completes the top 5, Lampard just outside, Essien another step behind and Alonso a further tier below
Left wing: Overmars certainly
Right wing: Ronaldo certainly, Valencia no
Forwards: Henry and Cantona in top 3 with Shearer, Ruud and Bergkamp completes the top 5, Rooney outside the top 5 with Drogba, Zola the next step down

9 out of my 11 players on the pitch are top 3, Fabregas in top 5 for the midfield position rich in talent
On the other hand, Gio only has 2 compared to my 9 - Ronaldo and Ferdinand in the top 3, Campbell and Gerrard in the top 5 for the centreback and midfield positions rich in talent

Yet somehow, my team is losing out on names? bizarre and perplexing

So what is everyone's top 3 in each position?
Any contributions?

 

[Cutch]

It was not strikerless, Cutch, not if you read my posts and studied the formation graphic
Henry was not playing as a winger - my posts and the arrow in the formation graphic clearly stated that he was to start from a wide position and make diagonal runs to take up a striking position in the box
Simple enough IMO but nobody understood
What was bemusing was that Henry and Zola were basically in the same position outside the corner of the box (refer to the formation graphics) but people have a far bigger issue with Henry going from out to in (which he has done throughout his time with Arsenal) than Zola

It was still strikerless Pol. Even if Henry's making runs in there he can't do the job of a centreforward if his starting position is out wide.

 

[Polaroid]

For interest sake, at what age did Desailly move to Chelsea? My fuzzy memory thinks he enjoyed his best years at AC Milan, though he was still a beast at Chelsea, I think a argument can be made that he isn't "top 5".

I wouldn't go as far as saying it's a ludicrous claim though.

He was 29 when he moved in the summer of 98, days before the WC IIRC. If you do not recall his performance in those years, you can check out old videos or refer to Michael Owen's opinion of him - he had not lost his legs. Desailly was a regular for Chelsea and France for 6 more years, captaining both sides from 2000-2004.

 

[Polaroid]

It was still strikerless Pol. Even if Henry's making runs in there he can't do the job of a centreforward if his starting position is out wide.

Have to disagree there Cutch
Please watch the videos in the OP and refresh your memories
Henry has been making runs like that throughout his time with Arsenal, in to out, out to in, if he cannot do a job scoring and assisting goals, then we must be living in alternate universes!
Look at Barcelona for one - Messi, Villa, Pedro, Sanchez, how does each one of them play?
Cantona was dropping into the hole, thriving in the space to pull strings and probe the box (see the starting formation graphic), a withdrawn forward or false 9 whatever you want to call it. Fabregas linking up with Cantona, Henry and Overmars two goalscoring forwards on either side making runs goalside of the centrebacks, Vieira bombing forward with the insurance of Gilberto Silva behind. Problem was no one read/understood the tactics, except for a few.

 

[Ish]

Aaah, ta Polaroid.

I remmeber him being a beast for his national team, but once again, not watching too many Chelsea games back then (they weren't televised down here as much as they are today tbh), and their team not quite being as "elite" as they are today would probably have clouded some people's judgement of his time there, including my own!

 

[Cutch]

Have to disagree there Cutch
Please watch the videos in the OP and refresh your memories
Henry has been making runs like that throughout his time with Arsenal, in to out, out to in, if he cannot do a job scoring and assisting goals, then we must be living in alternate universes!
Look at Barcelona for one - Messi, Villa, Pedro, Sanchez, how does each one of them play?

False number 9s and interchanging, that wasn't how you were set up but, i can't see Cantona doing much interchanging.

Henry's starting position at Arsenal was upfront though he did drift outwide, not the other way round. When he did start outwide he didn't leave the team without a focal point, they always played 4-4-2 from what i remember so Van Persie was still in and around the box.

Anyway, as i was saying, ypu've a much better set up now but might be too late.

 

[Polaroid]

False number 9s and interchanging, that wasn't how you were set up but, i can't see Cantona doing much interchanging.

Henry's starting position at Arsenal was upfront though he did drift outwide, not the other way round. When he did start outwide he didn't leave the team without a focal point, they always played 4-4-2 from what i remember so Van Persie was still in and around the box.

Anyway, as i was saying, ypu've a much better set up now but might be too late.

The point I made about how Barcelona play was Messi dropping into the hole/midfield to link up with Iniesta etc while Villa, Pedro and Sanchez make runs from starting wide positions to goalside of the defence. In similar but not identical fashion, Cantona drops into the hole/midfield to link up with Fabregas while Henry and Overmars make runs from starting wide positions to goalside of the defence.

I reiterate a passage which you missed out
Cantona was dropping into the hole, thriving in the space to pull strings and probe the box (see the starting formation graphic), a withdrawn forward or false 9 whatever you want to call it. Fabregas linking up with Cantona, Henry and Overmars two goalscoring forwards on either side making runs goalside of the centrebacks, Vieira bombing forward with the insurance of Gilberto Silva behind. Problem was no one read/understood the tactics, except for a few.

Please refresh your memories with these videos of Cantona if you think he does not have the ability to play this role of dropping into space and then picking apart teams with his passing, movement, dribbling and goalscoring.

Eric Cantona

 

[antohan]

So what is everyone's top 3 in each position?
Any contributions?

Not far off.

Desailly wasn't top 5 in my book though, not in the EPL.

Your midfield definition is a bit of a car crash, would split across different types of midfielders. No way was Vieira a top 3 midfielder. He was right behind Keano for that sort of role with Essien third. But when you include Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard... he would struggle to be top 5 (so would Essien, mind).

I don't think there's much in it in midfield TBH.

Similar could be applied to forwards as there is a vast array of them and team style is very relevant. Cantona wouldn't have played ahead of Drogba in Mourinho's Chelsea.

So whatever lists are drawn up, it would be much of a muchness. That's why I focus on who each player is set against.

Valencia is arguably your weakest player but works a treat against Le Saux. The result is that flank is actually the only one where I can see a fullback being properly supported in defence and also joining the attack. That would be Irwin-Valencia.

Conversely, Jones is clearly Gio's weakest player, gets no support from Ronaldo and is up against Overmars!

So the left flank battle (your right) you are comfortable and have decent penetration. On the right flank (your left) Ronaldo on Cole is 50-50, while Overmars on Jones is more like 70-30/80-20.

That flank superiority makes up for his CBs being a better unit, as they will have a harder job covering flanks and there will be more penetration/goalscoring opportunities from you. With that left even, you have Henry to finish it all off and he has Rooney, you have Van der Sar and he has Lehmann...

 

[Polaroid]

Aaah, ta Polaroid.

I remmeber him being a beast for his national team, but once again, not watching too many Chelsea games back then (they weren't televised down here as much as they are today tbh), and their team not quite being as "elite" as they are today would probably have clouded some people's judgement of his time there, including my own!

Unfortunately, you are probably right
It was a different era in the late 90s then, United and Arsenal were the top dogs and Liverpool was better than Chelsea. Abramovich only came in 2003.
Sir Alex tried to sign him before his move to Chelsea and again in 2000 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2000/jun/04/newsstory.sport6). If Desailly had not joined Chelsea but United to pair up with Stam or Arsenal with Adams

 

[Polaroid]

Not far off.

Desailly wasn't top 5 in my book though, not in the EPL.

Your midfield definition is a bit of a car crash, would split across different types of midfielders. No way was Vieira a top 3 midfielder. He was right behind Keano for that sort of role with Essien third. But when you include Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard... he would struggle to be top 5 (so would Essien, mind).

I don't think there's much in it in midfield TBH.

Similar could be applied to forwards as there is a vast array of them and team style is very relevant. Cantona wouldn't have played ahead of Drogba in Mourinho's Chelsea.

So whatever lists are drawn up, it would be much of a muchness. That's why I focus on who each player is set against.

Valencia is arguably your weakest player but works a treat against Le Saux. The result is that flank is actually the only one where I can see a fullback being properly supported in defence and also joining the attack. That would be Irwin-Valencia.

Conversely, Jones is clearly Gio's weakest player, gets no support from Ronaldo and is up against Overmars!

So the left flank battle (your right) you are comfortable and have decent penetration. On the right flank (your left) Ronaldo on Cole is 50-50, while Overmars on Jones is more like 70-30/80-20.

That flank superiority makes up for his CBs being a better unit, as they will have a harder job covering flanks and there will be more penetration/goalscoring opportunities from you. With that left even, you have Henry to finish it all off and he has Rooney, you have Van der Sar and he has Lehmann...

Give it a shot - the list
I am interested in finding out the opinions of those here
Others please chip in with yours too
or perhaps i should start a thread elsewhere?

 

[antohan]

Give it a shot - the list
I am interested in finding out the opinions of those here
Others please chip in with yours too
or perhaps i should start a thread elsewhere?

Start a thread, but it will not provide much insight unless roles are better defined: defensive midfielder, box-to-box, playmaker...

This two day thing doesn't work very well, everyone stops voting after day 1 clearly.

 

[Gio]

You should change it to how his fellow Liverpool teammates rated him
And for good measure, while we are at Liverpool teammates lavishing praise on each other, throw in this one Gerrard had for Joe Cole

"Messi can do some amazing things, but anything he can do Joe can do as well, if not better."

There's a world of difference between bumming up a current team-mate to build their confidence, and evaluating retrospectively the qualities of a former team-mate.

As strict the quality control of Redcafe compared to other football forums, I am sure some gems can be found, like the one you quoted PeterStorey on, saying Keown > Adams

Storey's one of the best posters on the site and as a Gooner is better placed than the rest of the forum to make comparisons between players of his own team. Hence why I showed the respect in which many Liverpool fans hold Jones, compared to Finnan, Johnson, Babbel and Nicol. All fans are going to be biased when discussing their own players compared to other clubs' - hence why these 'top 3' debates on this forum are going to be skewed. I wouldn't have Cantona in the top 3 strikers of the Premiership era given his inability to change games at European level, despite his massively influential period at United.

Speak of other top posters on this site, here's what Fortitude had to say about Sol Campbell when ranking him in the top 8 defenders of the last 20 years:

He was immense 1vs1 before giving the ball to someone else to do something with.

Always went up a level in the big games, too.

His performances for England and the fact he got into so many teams of the tournament despite England's earlish departures also spoke volumes.

Stam would've been the next guy on my list.

Desailly simply wasn't on the same level after joining Chelsea. Milan Desailly yes as I said would challenge Rio as the top defender in the draft.

 

[Polaroid]

Start a thread, but it will not provide much insight unless roles are better defined: defensive midfielder, box-to-box, playmaker...

This two day thing doesn't work very well, everyone stops voting after day 1 clearly.

Started one before I read your post
Different types of strikers, forwards, wingers, midfielders and defenders in different systems - too much for people, I made things simpler for them.
It is not ideal but good enough. Greatest player lists also end up with things like defensive players being under-represented etc

Regarding the duration of polls, you all can decide in future. This is my swansong, as I told Gio before this match

 

[Gio]

With only minutes remaining and Polariod presumably pushing on to make up some goals, I'll throw on Ballon D'Or winning striker Michael Owen. His pace will be a huge threat as our team soaks up the pressure and hits on the break. Coming off to a rapturous applause is Gianfranco Zola for an impressive shift. Wayne Rooney slips over to the inside-left channel.

 

[Cutch]

You're showin off now

 

[Polaroid]

There's a world of difference between bumming up a current team-mate to build their confidence, and evaluating retrospectively the qualities of a former team-mate.

McManaman in the same interview which you quoted him on Rob Jones, called Robbie Fowler "The greatest goalscorer of all time" in his retrospective evaluation of his former teammate
Those old enough to have seen Rob Jones, does anyone of you think that Jones has sustained a performance level high enough and long enough to rank among the greats of the Premier League era?

Storey's one of the best posters on the site and as a Gooner is better placed than the rest of the forum to make comparisons between players of his own team.

And United fans are better placed than Storey and you to make comparisons between United players?

Do a poll on an Arsenal forum then, I would like to see how many rate Keown above Adams as a defender. The public and expert panel both chose Adams in the Premier League All-time Fantasy XI (where is Keown by the way? not even nominated for the shortlist) so they must be talking bollocks too

Hence why I showed the respect in which many Liverpool fans hold Jones, compared to Finnan, Johnson, Babbel and Nicol.

How does saying Jones is better than other Liverpool right-backs Finnan, Johnson, Babel and Nichol qualify him as a Premier League All-time great/elite? Has the tournament changed from PL 20 seasons to Liverpool 20 seasons?

All fans are going to be biased when discussing their own players compared to other clubs' - hence why these 'top 3' debates on this forum are going to be skewed.

I started a thread on it. If you disagree with the lists by other posters, you can address them directly

I wouldn't have Cantona in the top 3 strikers of the Premiership era given his inability to change games at European level, despite his massively influential period at United.

So now after Liverpool 20 seasons you want to go into Europe 20 seasons?
Please stop being disingenuous in shifting the goalposts, you would lose respect there
It was clearly stated - the top 3 list was based on Premier league performance. Heck, this entire tournament from the very beginning was based on premier league performance and it is stated in bold on every match thread. And now you want to change the goalposts? some honour would be very much appreciated

The competition criteria also clearly stated - influence and impact on their team and the Premier League.
Which strikers do you rate as having more impact and influence?

Speak of other top posters on this site, here's what Fortitude had to say about Sol Campbell when ranking him in the top 8 defenders of the last 20 years:

Desailly simply wasn't on the same level after joining Chelsea. Milan Desailly yes as I said would challenge Rio as the top defender in the draft.

I rated Campbell in the top 5 of the premier league, no?
Where do you rate Desailly? below the top 8 or 10? By the way, Desailly at Milan played in defensive midfield more than in defence
You have quoted Storey and Fortitude, I shall quote your own Michael Owen who at the peak of his prowess played against Desailly in the premier league, as well as Carragher whom you quoted on Rob Jones

Michael Owen on Marcel Desailly
"With some defenders you think he’s not strong, he’s not so quick or whatever and try to play against that weakness. But Desailly was virtually impossible to play against. He was strong, quick, and good on the ball."

Jamie Carragher on Desailly
"He loved the big occasions. Whenever we used to play against him at Anfield he used to play so well that, to be honest, it was a case of men against boys."

Since you favour quotes, here is more from Gullit and Laudrup (not top posters on internet forums but fairly decent players themselves)
Ruud Gullit on Desailly
"A very strong defender and excellent in the air, which is something you need. He also had the kind of pace and power that would frighten attackers into making a mistake."

Brian Laudrup on Desailly
"Definitely the hardest player to come up against – it was nearly impossible to get past him because, for a player of his physique, he had incredible balance. It was always good to have him on your team, because he did the work of three men. He was so good that he filled his offensive players with confidence. You knew, with him on the pitch, you’d never get caught on the counter-attack."

 

[antohan]

These might come handy

 

[Polaroid]

Relatively speaking, Gio is considered gentlemanly
One needs this when playing you

 

[Polaroid]

Ribbons are already on the trophy
Team Gio's supporters are counting down..

 

[Polaroid]

Gerrard impatient to get his hands on his maiden PL trophy nicks it from the officials and runs back onto the pitch showing it off to the Kop!

 

[OB]

Is such a poll possible where you can change votes?
Suppose if someone voted for Gio, then after the subs and changes, wants to vote for Pol, shouldn't he be able to change?

 

[Polaroid]

The referee chases after Gerrard, blowing his whistle in vain
Lehmann, amused, decides to sit down and watch

 

[Polaroid]

Is such a poll possible where you can change votes?
Suppose if someone voted for Gio, then after the subs and changes, wants to vote for Pol, shouldn't he be able to change?

Technically no, multiple votes can be selected as an option when setting up the poll but votes cannot be withdrawn from the poll once casted
Unless it is mutually agreed to do a manual discounting for those who changed their minds

 

[OB]

Technically no, multiple votes can be selected as an option when setting up the poll but votes cannot be withdrawn from the poll once casted
Unless it is mutually agreed to do a manual discounting for those who changed their minds

Yea but manual counting would be too much work.

 

[Polaroid]

Essien: I have calculated! the ref is too fat to catch up with Gerrard, the trophy is ours!

 

[Polaroid]

Yea but manual counting would be too much work.

Concur, or simply - voters make the conscious decision to let the tactical jousting unfold over the 2 days and hear out both sides for the full picture, weighing the balance of the match as it ebbs and flows throughout before making an overall judgement and voting on the second day