I also think it is too lateGio is a good manager, although I think he is surprised himself how much he has gotten away with Jones after missing out on Irwin in the draft (he cursed me when I took Irwin
)Premier League 20 Seasons Final - Team Polaroid vs Team Gio
- Thread starter Polaroid
- Start date
I also think it is too lateGio is a good manager, although I think he is surprised himself how much he has gotten away with Jones after missing out on Irwin in the draft (he cursed me when I took Irwin
)I should stick to the voter-friendly big names instead of bringing in Silva to do a tactical job
I would have always started with your latest side, would have avoided the arrows like the plague (they didn't really add anything we couldn't imagine) and used footballuser. I honestly think it looks much more imposing than those little -closer to scale- t-shirts scattered around.
Usually it is best not to start with a very different formation from your opponent (if you are rather even) as a lot of people will quickly vote the favoured formation independent of personnel and whether they can pull it off at all. Voting is more gradual that way and gives you time to make any changes.
That said, the ET from the last game was very deceptive in that everyone (all of 4 people!!!) seemed to be drawn by how robust it was
Gio is a good manager, although I think he is surprised himself how much he has gotten away with Jones after missing out on Irwin in the draft (he cursed me when I took Irwin
I lost to Gary fecking Kelly who no one on here even picked in a draft of his own league and era!!!! Apparently Forlán as a withdrawn support striker on the left couldn't give him any trouble
Mind you, the Forlán playing for the NT lately probably wouldn't.
Rob Jones is weakness in the team but he was not that shit a player that rest of the team can't cover for it right?
Also are we doing a La Liga /Serie A draft after this? Or even African?
Also are we doing a La Liga /Serie A draft after this? Or even African?
Gerrard won't help him much, Essien would but he is on the other side. Alonso is busy with Cantona... Means Rio will cover, and he will, but that's where I can see gaps appearing in an otherwise impenetrable CB pair. With Henry in there, you can't afford those.
It's Thierry Henry, he was the best player in the 20 seasons by some margin. On a 100 run of games basis even Ronaldo doesn't come close.
I liked the idea of All-Time XIs with only one player per country allowed. The draft is the most fun bit on this and that promises to be a complete mindfeck: e.g. which Brazilian do you pick? You only get one
I'm going off the testimony of Steve McMamanaman, Jamie Carragher and Ryan Giggs. His debut wasn't just a one-off - he was the best English right-back through the early-to-mid 1990s, until injuries took a hold and Neville emerged. He shouldn't be punished purely because voters are less familiar with the Premiership in the early 1990s.
Anyway the Jones debate is a sideshow to the main battle in the middle of the park, where the three of Essien, Gerrard and Alonso would surely collectively overpower Vieira and Fabregas, with whatever defensive contribution Cantona decided to input.
Polaroid - apologies about getting Le Saux's caps wrong. But again he was first-choice under both Venables (94-96) and Hoddle (96-98), missing out on Euro '96 through injury.
You sure would get a fair bit of possession, the question is what you do with it thereafter. Pol has various options: go for Valencia's pace and penetration down the right, Overmars cutting Jones to shreds on the left (potentially with Henry doubling-up on that act) or Cantona and Henry through the middle.
I can't see you having as much penetration once you have the ball.
Im very familiar with the Premierleague since the start thank you very much! Plus that match against Giggs you keep going on about was before the PL even started so it is disingenuous for you to even mention it.
Rob Jones was average at best, he has no right to be in an all time PL fantasy final really - he only won a handful of England caps (and that is not even down to injury because he played plenty for the Scouse) and that tells you everything you need to know.
I would have always started with your latest side, would have avoided the arrows like the plague (they didn't really add anything we couldn't imagine) and used footballuser. I honestly think it looks much more imposing than those little -closer to scale- t-shirts scattered around.
Usually it is best not to start with a very different formation from your opponent (if you are rather even) as a lot of people will quickly vote the favoured formation independent of personnel and whether they can pull it off at all. Voting is more gradual that way and gives you time to make any changes.
That said, the ET from the last game was very deceptive in that everyone (all of 4 people!!!) seemed to be drawn by how robust it was
True
I lost to Gary fecking Kelly who no one on here even picked in a draft of his own league and era!!!! Apparently Forlán as a withdrawn support striker on the left couldn't give him any trouble
Mind you, the Forlán playing for the NT lately probably wouldn't.
Gary Kelly retired on a high after collecting his 70s championship medal and taking his place among the legends in the pantheon
Re Jones, if i may refer you to my points in an earlier post
The Jones debate is not a sideshow
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, this is especially true for defence
There is little point in having a concrete steel wall with electric barbed wires if you are going to have a wooden door
If I may bring up a bit of military history to illustrate my point regarding the path of least resistance - during WW2, the German Panzer Divisions were well into France within 5 days by invading through the Low countries and the Ardennes forest, saving time and casualties by going around the Maginot line
Jones is the path of least resistance. Any point, even in the corner, of the dam that leaks will let through more and more water, as the pressure increases for cracks to spread
Re the midfield, i refer you to my earlier post
Down to eight now and an entire day to go. Reckon you should look after every detail and this simply looks better!
Down to eight now and an entire day to go. Reckon you should look after every detail and this simply looks better!
Thank you Anto
Updated in OP
Gio is too comfortable in his lead, we should make it squeaky bum time
It was injuries rather than ability which is why Jones had only 8 England caps. He missed Euro '92 and Euro '96 due to shin splints, and England didn't qualify in 1994. Sometimes there are other factors beyond ability which influence how many caps a player ends up with, as Cantona well knows.
Overmars was a devastating winger at his peak, but his main weapon was pace. In Jones he's coming up against a full-back blessed with considerable pace, so that normal advantage is largely negated. This 'cutting to shreds' scenario that Antohan dreamed up just isn't going to materialise. Not when your left flank should be more focused on how to deal with Ronaldo, backed up as required by Gerrard.
It's referenced over a range of Liverpool websites and forums.
I think Zola, Rooney, Ronaldo and Gerrard will have some ideas about how to answer that question. Zola has the trickery to cut open any defence, we all know about Rooney and Ronaldo's qualities together, while Gerrard has a better platform than he ever enjoyed at club or international level to make an impact.
Thank you Anto
Updated in OP
Gio is too comfortable in his lead, we should make it squeaky bum time
Just compare that front four to his three, much more potent, even before you take the fullback disparity into account.
If you go to the op and scroll down slowly:
VDS: instant confidence
Adams and Desailly v. Rooney: they'll be fine
Zola v. Irwin/Desailly: meh
Ronaldo!!!!... v. Cole: best man for the job that little shit, and Adams will rough him up alright
Gerrard-Essien v. Fabregas-Vieira: mighty battle, 50-50 or 60-40 either way, no dominance, Gerrard best suited for Gio and Fabregas best to spray passes to Pol's options upfront
Oh wait, there's Alonso too... v. Cantona: Christ, that's some job he has ahead
Valencia and Overmars... OK... what? against Jones and Le Saux? are you kidding?
Oh well, at least there's Rio and Sol to cover and look aft... Henry!!!! feckin' hell!
And who's the keeper? Lemon?
Granted, it was far more ominous when Ronaldo was on the left and Cole joining the attack. Still Henry's propensity to drift wide and linkup with Overmars would present any RB with a whole load of bother, let alone Jones. He really would have a mare and Rio is going to be running around plugging holes all game.
Leaves a lot to the imagination while the way Pol's front four would work and penetrate your defence time and time again is crystal clear. Every time I look at your attacking options I keep going back to "give it to Ronaldo" then go "oh wait, Cole is onto him like a leech", "wtf do we do then?", "chaaarge!". Through the middle, straight into Adams and Desailly who positionally are every bit as good as your two.
I never mentioned caps but since you brought it up..
Cantona has 45 caps with all his bans and exile after calling the manager a bag of shit and the French FA a bunch of idiots.
Jones has 8 caps during his time with Liverpool spanning 8 years and 243 appearances
During that time, there were qualification campaigns for 4 major international tournaments with far more games than the actual tournaments themselves.
Did he opt out of those qualification campaigns?
Rob Jones with the pace to negate Overmars?
I am sorry I cannot help it GioShall we open the floor to those who have seen both players to give us their judgements?
Ashley Cole will perform his usual job on Ronaldo, Ronaldo is a great player but some players just have their nemesis
Re Gerrard, there is Vieira. If Gerrard gets too excited roaming elsewhere, his positional indiscipline will cost your team in the middle of the park, with Vieira, Fabregas and Cantona having free rein against Essien and Alonso with plenty of help from Valencia and Overmars whereas you can hardly expect any from Ronaldo and Zola.
Only in Liverpool websites and forums?
My attacking options are such that I've got a Ballon D'Or winner kicking his heels on the bench. Polaroid's on the other hand include Antonio Valencia, a fine winger but in this company certainly no match-winner. Particularly when our 100+game criteria includes time he spent at Wigan, hacking about in the lower reaches of the Premiership. Indeed, given our likely dominance of the middle of the park, he'll be spending most of his energy tracking back to give Irwin some much needed support in dealing with the inventive Zola - he doesn't want to be left on his arse again does he? Le Saux's ability going forward (never mind proven relationship with Zola) will also give Valencia and Irwin plenty to think about.
You mentioned Lee Dixon getting in front of Jones and I pointed out the reasons behind that. Jones' peak was from 1992 to 1995 or thereabouts. Adhering to the criteria of the competition, it's not necessarily fair to include the second half of his career at Liverpool, which was ravaged by injuries and punctuated appearances. After all, nobody judged Neville or Giggs on the latter days of their careers.
Well do you expect me to get out the micro-fiche and analyse papers from the early-1990s to find out where it originated from? It's in sufficient common usage to believe it to be correct, much like the Zanetti point I made.
He is no good on the bench though!
His options are not limited to Valencia, yet Valencia is the man for the job as you so aptly describe it. Le Saux was to provide your width linking up with Zola but Valencia's pace, strength and workrate are the best counter to that. Your man Rooney would love to have Valencia on the right and Ronaldo left.
I love these arguments over player quotes and their sources, as if players didn't talk some bullshit in the run up to games
BTW, according to Harry Redknapp, Pol has the equal of Ronaldo or Messi on his bench.
BTW, according to Harry Redknapp, Pol has the equal of Ronaldo or Messi on his bench.
While acknowledging the productivity between Valencia and Rooney, I'd suggest that he'd be hard-pushed to turn down the nimble link-up play buzzing around that a superior technician in Zola would bring to the table.
You mentioned Euro 96 first
Going by the competition criteria, there are at least 6 better qualified candidates (in a barren era of quality right backs in the Premier League) to take to the field of this final, much less face Overmars
So it is commonly used in Liverpool forums without anyone knowing where it is from? and at the same time, there is no mention of it outside of the Liverpool forums at all? Not even from Liverpool's official website? if that is the case, that is very dubious but I will leave it at that.
The Zanetti one was from a Perfect XI interview Four Four Two did with Giggs. Can be easily googled.
I see that you have forsaken the point about Jones' pace negating Overmars
That's where the imagination I was referring to earlier comes in:
- Proven partnerships are, well, proven.
- Then you have partnerships where you have seen a player flourish alongside someone with similar characteristics.
- Then you have good players that you've never seen play in a certain setting.
I look at Pol's front four with Fabregas in midfield and I can see several options which I have seen (with the same or similar personnel) work in the past. To devastating effect.
Just compare that front four to his three, much more potent, even before you take the fullback disparity into account.
If you go to the op and scroll down slowly:
VDS: instant confidence
Adams and Desailly v. Rooney: they'll be fine
Zola v. Irwin/Desailly: meh
Ronaldo!!!!... v. Cole: best man for the job that little shit, and Adams will rough him up alright
Gerrard-Essien v. Fabregas-Vieira: mighty battle, 50-50 or 60-40 either way, no dominance, Gerrard best suited for Gio and Fabregas best to spray passes to Pol's options upfront
Oh wait, there's Alonso too... v. Cantona: Christ, that's some job he has ahead
Valencia and Overmars... OK... what? against Jones and Le Saux? are you kidding?
Oh well, at least there's Rio and Sol to cover and look aft... Henry!!!! feckin' hell!
And who's the keeper? Lemon?
It would have been a tighter contest if I started with this but I can only blame myself for tactics others could not understand
I think the votes are running out, possible to narrow the margin but Gio will probably win in the end and he would make a deserving winner
personally though, I think the strongest team I faced in this tournament was Theon's, Gio's fullbacks and keeper are good players but not near the level one would expect from Premier League all-time elitesNow I am feeling I should have voted the other way.
I think the votes are running out, possible to narrow the margin but Gio will probably win in the end and he would make a deserving winner
Yups. As I said, I've been there before chasing a massive final lead and every time the other team's counter ticks your bum feels sore. But it can be worse, you can chase all the way and lose by one vote (70s) or draw only to lose to a Golden Vote!
FWIW, I do think Theon had the best side. He just shot himself in the foot and lacked a bit of focus (all part of it being his first draft, in fairness). We will see sides like yours and Gio's again, but I doubt we will see a 4-4-2 as phenomenal as that one ever again.
Come on people, this is the Premier League 20 seasons commemorative edition, we have to wait another 10 years for one, whether the votes are for Gio or me, lets try to hit 50 votes for this
I think this is a moot point given that these players are unique, once-in-generation types. The only way for you to make a point here is to say why these players wouldn't work together. For example, Zola's linked up well with Faustino Asprillia, Thomas Brolin, Dino Baggio, Roberto Baggio, Christian Vieri, Gianluca Vialli, Filippo Inzaghi, Enrico Chiesa, Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink and various others: a vast array of top players.
You mentioned Euro 96 first
Going by the competition criteria, there are at least 6 better qualified candidates (in a barren era of quality right backs in the Premier League) to take to the field of this final, much less face Overmars
I see that you have forsaken the point about Jones' pace negating Overmars
Name the six or more then. I've got Gary Neville, Dan Petrescu and Denis Irwin. As I said before, Overmars was a devastating winger at his peak, but his main weapon was pace. In Jones he's coming up against a full-back blessed with considerable pace, so that normal advantage is largely negated.
As for Le Saux not being of the standard expected at the business end of this competition, how many left-backs are superior? Cole obviously, Irwin's been deployed as a right-back throughout the tournament, there's a case for Evra if we ignore his fall from grace in recent seasons, while Pearce peaked around 89/90. So he's up the top end I would suggest.
But this is the mid-1990s - Google didn't exist then. Just because it's not on the internet doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Having started Ronaldo on the left this is what you said. After moving back to the right at half-time, you then said:
How can a switch you didn't see the rationale for then become a significant weakness in my gameplan?
Anyway, if Cole and Irwin are pushing up as per the graphic, then there will be space in behind for Ronaldo and Zola to exploit, pulling Desailly and Adams out of their central comfort zones. That's an area I would expect to take advantage of as players tire during the second half.
Now I am feeling I should have voted the other way.
Me too, although its still very close. I voted based on the initial strikerless formation.
To be fair guys a tactical mess for a mere 10 minutes could cause enough damage to settle a match of this sort of high-end quality.
This is definately the final i expected at the start of the competition upon completion of the picking. Definately the 2 outstanding sides although Theon very nearly upset the party with his transfers.
It really was a mess, he just out thought himself I think.
Gio, i still can't believe Owen can't get a game for you. Not that it matters by the looks of it, but he has to be starting surely. Unbelievable talent he was in his Liverpool days, think people forget how good he was actually (maybe that was your thinkin).
Part of me is quite glad I don't have to face that perfect, complementary 4-4-2 - it would have been a real job to overcome.
There's still time for Owen to make an appearance. He was very close to starting I have to say.
Definately. Theons was an awesome side in the end up. Perfect balance and players who made a lasting impression on the Premier League. Very unlucky to lose in the semi.
I rate him much higher than Zola but maybe thats just me. Maybe its unfair but i keep thinking if Zola wasn't so humble and likeable and had a personality like Suarez say he wouldn't be held in such a high esteem
Very good player don't get me wrong but a bit overrated imo.Not making a point, just a comment. It's not that I'm knocking your team, just saying I can very clearly see how Pol's front four would work and how well it would, while I can't say the same about yours.
One jumps at me, the other one requires hard thinking and imagining stuff you are not quite sure will work, as you have nothing to go on but the individual quality of the players.
I didn't say it was wrong then, I was asking you for the rationale as what was immediately obvious was that your weaker fullback would be further exposed by Cole being less busy and more able to support the attack on Pol's then stronger wing (Cole-Henry).
I could see you wanting to avoid Cole because of his record against Ronaldo, but the cost seemed steep seeing as Irwin is still a very good fullback. That said, your left flank was very functional with Le Saux able to support Ronaldo.
In fact, I highlighted your switch back to the right as a good move once Valencia changed the dynamics of that flank.
The suggested weakness in your gameplan is an excessive reliance on a single player to provide any real width. That was not the case at the beginning as Le Saux provided a genuine outlet but after Pol's switch that outlet is very limited.
It's not a case of changing my mind, it's more a case of the dynamics of the game changing and exposing a weakness of yours. The lion's share of your play will be central and that plays well with Pol's CB pair.
That graphic is obsolete. Irwin could actually push up a fair bit, not so Cole. I reckon Cole already has a big enough job to be pushing up at all.