Potential Matic Replacements

Cassidy said:
That doesnt mean the player can only play that way is the point.

He is playing exactly how he is being asked
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Which is what he should have said, it’s lazy for him to just reference what I was implying. It was a pointlessly obtuse answer.
Adnan said:
Solskjaer has gone on record and said he wants to play a high-line similar to Liverpool. He's also mentioned he wants his fullbacks to get forward in attack.

And when you weigh it all up (including his time at Molde) it's easy to deduce that he wants to eventually play a similar style to Rose/Klopp stylistically.
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He’s also gone on record saying he likes to have a deep lying play maker. He’s never said they need to be mobile.

To add to that he’s consistently shown a preference for team defending and containment over aggression. It’s one of the reasons we have one of the best records for teams not getting shots off against us.

Well just have to agree to disagree.
 
Adnan said:
Mobility isn't the only requirement and I've explained all the other attributes to you aswell. Which include passing under pressure, defending space and advancing play which Zakaria is strong at.
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I understand his other attributes I just think Koopmeiners is better at the important ones.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Which is what he should have said, it’s lazy for him to just reference what I was implying. It was a pointlessly obtuse answer.

He’s also gone on record saying he likes to have a deep lying play maker. He’s never said they need to be mobile.

To add to that he’s consistently shown a preference for team defending and containment over aggression. It’s one of the reasons we have one of the best records for teams not getting shots off against us.

Well just have to agree to disagree.
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The answer to your question was in the response to @Fosu-Mens but you didn't grasp it. My apologies, I should've explained it better.

You don't need to have a player at #6 playing long balls to make plays.
 
Adnan said:
The answer to your question was in the response to @Fosu-Mens but you didn't grasp it. My apologies, I should've explained it better.

You don't need to have a player at #6 playing long balls to make plays.
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Because I’d posed the question in the knowledge that was his system I read it as you just reiterating he played that system.

And nor do you need a mobile #6 :lol: I feel we could have saved a lot of time just saying this to each other:lol:
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Because I’d posed the question in the knowledge that was his system I read it as you just reiterating he played that system.

And nor do you need a mobile #6 :lol: I feel we could have saved a lot of time just saying this to each other:lol:
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The proactive approach in winning the ball back quickly is a ploy used by Rose so your criticism of Zakaria wasn't warranted due to him playing to his managers instructions.

It wasn't just mobility was it? Apart from playing long balls there isn't anything that Koopmeiners is better at as a DM in comparison to Zakaria. Stat padding against the likes of Fortuna Sittard, VVV Venlo, RKC Waalwijk etc doesn't make your case any stronger.
 
Adnan said:
The proactive approach in winning the ball back quickly is a ploy used by Rose so your criticism of Zakaria wasn't warranted due to him playing to his managers instructions.

It wasn't just mobility was it? Apart from playing long balls there isn't anything that Koopmeiners is better at as a DM in comparison to Zakaria. Stat padding against the likes of Fortuna Sittard, VVV Venlo, RKC Waalwijk etc doesn't make your case any stronger.
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I’d argue they are of similar ability but one is more mobile and the other the better passer.

Its why I’m a fan of both.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
I think in his defence his role in that period was water carrier. It’s likely he was just following instructions in terms of simple passing.

We also need to consider that we didn’t have a No10 at that point where a progressive line break would have been useful.

I’m very confident over the years McTominay will shed his initial impressions and develop well. His long passing diagonally is underrated.

If Carrick believes he can do it I’d trust his judgement over the performance thread on the CAF as too often people who only watch highlights comment.
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@BenitoSTARR Today's game providing more evidence that he can't or shouldn't replace Matic and his passes are inconsistent
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
@BenitoSTARR Today's game providing more evidence that he can't or shouldn't replace Matic and his passes are inconsistent
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There’s a big difference between having Mata and Lingard to pass to and our first team.

I agree he had a poor game today though. Still confident he’ll come good even Bruno was below par.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
There’s a big difference between having Mata and Lingard to pass to and our first team.

I agree he had a poor game today though. Still confident he’ll come good even Bruno was below par.
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Difficult to radically improve your ballhandling, close control etc at the age of 23. Can be done, sure, but seems to me like he is more interested in his athletic abilities and playing like a bully.

If I was him or his manager I would try playing more as a centreback. Too many variables and actions for his close control and physique as a midfielder. Even the likes of Burnley got midfielders that are better on the ball and at passing.
 
Fosu-Mens said:
Difficult to radically improve your ballhandling, close control etc at the age of 23. Can be done, sure, but seems to me like he is more interested in his athletic abilities and playing like a bully.

If I was him or his manager I would try playing more as a centreback. Too many variables and actions for his close control and physique as a midfielder. Even the likes of Burnley got midfielders that are better on the ball and at passing.
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I think this makes him suited to be like an Ndidi type of DM than a CB. If we are working on him to be like a Matic or Carrick it makes no sense because he's ability on the ball is so far apart but with the way he is off the ball, it's much easier to work on him to be an Ndidi
 
Fosu-Mens said:
Difficult to radically improve your ballhandling, close control etc at the age of 23. Can be done, sure, but seems to me like he is more interested in his athletic abilities and playing like a bully.

If I was him or his manager I would try playing more as a centreback. Too many variables and actions for his close control and physique as a midfielder. Even the likes of Burnley got midfielders that are better on the ball and at passing.
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I hope he’s not handling the ball!

I think time will tell with Scott. His close control hasn’t ever been an issue really.

His biggest issue today was his line breaking passes. They were very subpar. He played some decent cross field passes but the bread and butters were being intercepted. Now it’s harder to judge if that’s his fault or the receiver as Lingard and Mata were his regular out ball today.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
There’s a big difference between having Mata and Lingard to pass to and our first team.

I agree he had a poor game today though. Still confident he’ll come good even Bruno was below par.
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Well both Mata and Lingard are known for their pretty good movement off the ball and finding spaces...
 
Fracture90 said:
Well both Mata and Lingard are known for their pretty good movement off the ball and finding spaces...
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Lingard was shockingly bad with his movement, Mata has slowed down a lot. It’s not the same as being in the first XI.

I’m not saying he will be our DM and don’t think he’s the perfect candidate either.
He had a bad game today.
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
I think this makes him suited to be like an Ndidi type of DM than a CB. If we are working on him to be like a Matic or Carrick it makes no sense because he's ability on the ball is so far apart but with the way he is off the ball, it's much easier to work on him to be an Ndidi
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But he is not as mobile as Ndidi, but I would rather have him attempting to play conservative rather than thinking he can emulate Bruno...

BenitoSTARR said:
I hope he’s not handling the ball!

I think time will tell with Scott. His close control hasn’t ever been an issue really.

His biggest issue today was his line breaking passes. They were very subpar. He played some decent cross field passes but the bread and butters were being intercepted. Now it’s harder to judge if that’s his fault or the receiver as Lingard and Mata were his regular out ball today.
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He always has to make an extra touch to control the ball. His passes are made to reach the target, not to be easy to control... He lacks any sort of "finesse" in his game. Clunky is the word I would use to describe the way he passes and controls the ball.
 
Fosu-Mens said:
But he is not as mobile as Ndidi, but I would rather have him attempting to play conservative rather than thinking he can emulate Bruno...



He always has to make an extra touch to control the ball. His passes are made to reach the target, not to be easy to control... He lacks any sort of "finesse" in his game. Clunky is the word I would use to describe the way he passes and controls the ball.
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No finesse and yet he played a lovely deft heel pass into Ighalo...

He doesn’t always take an extra touch so that’s a lie right out of the gate.

Just because he’s tall doesn’t make him clunky.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
No finesse and yet he played a lovely deft heel pass into Ighalo...

He doesn’t always take an extra touch so that’s a lie right out of the gate.

Just because he’s tall doesn’t make him clunky.
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Even Fellaini has made some slick moves throughout his career. Don't use single moments as a reflection of how his ability is... By this reasoning, one could state that Lingard is a decent player based on one or two of his games.

Not always, but you get my meaning...

His height does not make him clunky, but it makes it more difficult to have an efficient technique like Matic does. And you can spot the difference between those players when they are receiving, controlling and passing the ball?
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Lingard was shockingly bad with his movement, Mata has slowed down a lot. It’s not the same as being in the first XI.

I’m not saying he will be our DM and don’t think he’s the perfect candidate either.
He had a bad game today.
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I'd disagree that he was shockingly bad with his movement, he was running into spaces and making himself available for the pass, the pass that rarely came because of the players on the ball not having that pass in them more often than not.
 
Fosu-Mens said:
Even Fellaini has made some slick moves throughout his career. Don't use single moments as a reflection of how his ability is... By this reasoning, one could state that Lingard is a decent player based on one or two of his games.

Not always, but you get my meaning...

His height does not make him clunky, but it makes it more difficult to have an efficient technique like Matic does. And you can spot the difference between those players when they are receiving, controlling and passing the ball?
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He regularly pulls off deft touches. It’s lazy to call him clunky because he’s not it’s also an outright lie to say he always needs lots of touches to control a ball.

People get an agenda and then will say anything even if not true to support it.

McTominay was poor yesterday but so was the whole side, it’s to be expected to some degree when you make so many changes even Bruno was off the pace.

I wouldn’t for one second say McTominay is currently on the level of Matic and it would be silly to suggest that but Matic wasn’t the DM we know until about 25/6 years old.

The biggest difference is Matic is more consistent in his line breaking passes and his positioning is definitely better.

Fracture90 said:
I'd disagree that he was shockingly bad with his movement, he was running into spaces and making himself available for the pass, the pass that rarely came because of the players on the ball not having that pass in them more often than not.
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Lingard didn't really make effective movements into attacking areas. He hides himself behind bodies and for me his performance can be best summarised by look busy and don’t make a mistake rather than genuine attacking impetus.

There was one occasion that I did spot a great run that wasn’t found when he was cutting in from LW and he was visibly frustrated by it. He did however make the run that would require a Hollywood pass from McTominay who was being pressed out side to the right. I think even Pogba would have struggled to pick that out.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Lingard didn't really make effective movements into attacking areas. He hides himself behind bodies and for me his performance can be best summarised by look busy and don’t make a mistake rather than genuine attacking impetus.

There was one occasion that I did spot a great run that wasn’t found when he was cutting in from LW and he was visibly frustrated by it. He did however make the run that would require a Hollywood pass from McTominay who was being pressed out side to the right. I think even Pogba would have struggled to pick that out.
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So you're basically taking away the only thing that everyone agrees he's good at, in order to keep alive your hypothesis that once upon a time in a distant future MCT can transition to being Matic' replacement?
 
I’m not going to advocate for him as I’ve not seen him play anywhere near enough, but damn it if this isn’t one of the sexiest compilations I’ve seen from a DM. :drool:

 
Fracture90 said:
So you're basically taking away the only thing that everyone agrees he's good at, in order to keep alive your hypothesis that once upon a time in a distant future MCT can transition to being Matic' replacement?
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No. I’m saying Lingard in the last game was hiding away from the ball not moving well.

Jesus. You know players don’t just stay they same all the time. Lingards movement has been poor recently. His touch has been poor too.
 
JohnnyLaw said:
I’m not going to advocate for him as I’ve not seen him play anywhere near enough, but damn it if this isn’t one of the sexiest compilations I’ve seen from a DM. :drool:

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Show me Denis Zakaria doing that as consistently as Koomeiners.

This is typical of him.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Show me Denis Zakaria doing that as consistently as Koomeiners.

This is typical of him.
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I get your point but he is never getting that sort of time and space on the ball in the bundesliga - let alone the prem. I can only really go off his game against us, but he'd need to get a lot more athletic to be of any use to us. No top side in our league could have a DM like that. Not to say we couldn't whip him into shape mind.
 
Lash said:
I get your point but he is never getting that sort of time and space on the ball in the bundesliga - let alone the prem. I can only really go off his game against us, but he'd need to get a lot more athletic to be of any use to us. No top side in our league could have a DM like that. Not to say we couldn't whip him into shape mind.
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The thing is he would get that time because he’s very comfortable dropping between the CBs exactly what Matic does.

I know he won’t get that in the very middle of the pitch but hopefully you can just how technically gifted he is with his passing.

He’s an outstanding line breaker and long ball player and I know I didn’t mention it (as it’s not really relevant to the role) but he’s great for set pieces and penalties.

I just think he’s always composed and ready to pick out runners. I think Rashford in particular would benefit from him being in the side.
 
I think if you compare their best moments it highlights how different their approaches are. Koopmeiners is a dictator and Zakaria more of a breaker up or play. Both excellent at what they do and I really think it just comes down to which style you prefer.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
No. I’m saying Lingard in the last game was hiding away from the ball not moving well.

Jesus. You know players don’t just stay they same all the time. Lingards movement has been poor recently. His touch has been poor too.
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Well we got ourselves a difference in opinion then. By no means am i a Lingard apologist, for all his shortcomings his movement hasn't dropped off in any significant way, if any. Only difference lies in players behind him not feeling confident enough to follow up on his movement and send him a useful pass. MCT being one of those players.
 
Fracture90 said:
Well we got ourselves a difference in opinion then. By no means am i a Lingard apologist, for all his shortcomings his movement hasn't dropped off in any significant way, if any. Only difference lies in players behind him not feeling confident enough to follow up on his movement and send him a useful pass. MCT being one of those players.
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For the sake of not detailing the thread we’ll agree to disagree but I’m happy to take this discussion to the Lingard performance thread?
 
That Matic/Carrick role is quite unusual at Man Utd compared with other clubs. I think it takes a long time to "get it", indeed it took a long time for Matic to get it, which is why he could be found being run past when pressing from it quite a lot during the period when people thought he was finished, or alternatively caught too deep and run around by someone who'd built momentum. I'd hope Scott McTominay could become that player with a lot of study.
 
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Lash said:
I get your point but he is never getting that sort of time and space on the ball in the bundesliga - let alone the prem. I can only really go off his game against us, but he'd need to get a lot more athletic to be of any use to us. No top side in our league could have a DM like that. Not to say we couldn't whip him into shape mind.
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completely agree and we also have Jimmy Garner who will be just as good or even better than Koopmeiners IMO. Play Garner in the same league and I believe he will out perform Koopmeiners in time.
 
Adnan said:
He's still out after that gamè where he was deployed as a sweeper and collided with his own keeper and suffered a nasty knock to his knee.
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Infra-red said:
He's been out with a knee injury since the beginning of March. Underwent surgery on the knee last month.
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Cheers guys, honestly as much as I rate what I've seen of him I wouldn't want us to buy him this summer and take a risk with his knee, for me he would be someone to look at in maybe January is he looks back to his best, but in truth we need to move on this situation before then, Matic is as patchy as it gets and against teams that press we will struggle if he's paired with Bruno and Pogba. I think we have to look at the alternatives as if Pogba is staying then that holding midfielder is as vital as RW in my view.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
For the sake of not detailing the thread we’ll agree to disagree but I’m happy to take this discussion to the Lingard performance thread?
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Mate we can even organize a Skype chat for all i care but it won't change the fact that imo you're wastly overestimating MCT.
 
Devil may care said:
Cheers guys, honestly as much as I rate what I've seen of him I wouldn't want us to buy him this summer and take a risk with his knee, for me he would be someone to look at in maybe January is he looks back to his best, but in truth we need to move on this situation before then, Matic is as patchy as it gets and against teams that press we will struggle if he's paired with Bruno and Pogba. I think we have to look at the alternatives as if Pogba is staying then that holding midfielder is as vital as RW in my view.
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You could be right mate and we may decide to back off for now. Bild in Germany have reported that United have a very serious interest in Zakaria. Others have also reported the same since in Germany so it'll be interesting to see how things pan out.

The player has 2 years left on his contract and unless he extends, Gladbach may feel it's in their interest to cash in. The current pandemic might also have financial implications on Gladbach eventhough they've qualified for the Champions League.
 
Adnan said:
You could be right mate and we may decide to back off for now. Bild in Germany have reported that United have a very serious interest in Zakaria. Others have also reported the same since in Germany so it'll be interesting to see how things pan out.

The player has 2 years left on his contract and unless he extends, Gladbach may feel it's in their interest to cash in. The current pandemic might also have financial implications on Gladbach eventhough they've qualified for the Champions League.
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Someone might nip in and take him but I just don't think I'd risk it, I'd look at Bruno Guimarães or Tonali and get in Camavinga as well, it might be too soon for him to be starting week in and week out but we really don't have anything coming through in the poistion and neither McTominay or Fred ar holding midfielders, they are jack of all trades box to box CM's, they have their uses but we need to think about having more than just Matic as the holder option as he should really be the back up now and then we could move him on next summer and have one of the above plus Camavinga.
 
Devil may care said:
Someone might nip in and take him but I just don't think I'd risk it, I'd look at Bruno Guimarães or Tonali and get in Camavinga as well, it might be too soon for him to be starting week in and week out but we really don't have anything coming through in the poistion and neither McTominay or Fred ar holding midfielders, they are jack of all trades box to box CM's, they have their uses but we need to think about having more than just Matic as the holder option as he should really be the back up now and then we could move him on next summer and have one of the above plus Camavinga.
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Guimaraes I banged on about alone for a long while but we missed the boat and some club will have to deal with Mr Aulas now and he'll ask a for a very high sum. Tonali could be a possibility but according to Romano he favours a stay in Italy and Inter are pretty advanced in sealing the transfer according to the Italian journo.

Camavinga could be a possibility but it seems like Madrid have prioritized his signing according to quotes attributed to someone at Madrid. So unless they drop their interest I don't see it happening but would love to see Camavinga at United.

I khow many may disagree with me and that's fine. But for me Mejbri will become a backup option as the #8 in a years time and a midfield 3 of Camavinga(longshot), Pogba and Mejbri could be potentially outstanding but I wouldn't rule out Garner either.
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
A name that has popped up a couple of times is Florian Grillitsch. Anyone know much about him?
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I like him - underrated player. He's really composed in possession, press resistant and has a nice passing range. Can play at CB a bit too. He's not as quick or as physically imposing as some of the other names mentioned in this thread - think Michael Carrick, if Carrick could dribble with the ball - but does have great stamina and really gets around the pitch.

I have no idea what he'd cost - probably not very much.
 
Surprised there isn't more people mentioning Laimer from Leipzig. An absolute pressing machine that never stops. Great line breaking passes and great bringing the ball up. The one big issue is that sometimes he gets pushed off the ball too easily but love his game.
 
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