[Marwood]

What I’m getting at is: Why is the quality so much lower now than it has been earlier in the season?

I'm not sure it is. The beginning of the season wasn't great. I've debated this a few times but Rashford's purple patch has convinced some that we've been good all season. Pre world cup we ranged from bad to decent. If you strip away all the goodwill and excitement a new manager gets we've only had a handful of games that are really good full 90 mins.

Simple to me. Rashford's run of form was huge. I kept saying at the time if he drops off we'll be back to struggling and that's what's happened. Our goalscoring was and is still all about the Bruno to Rashford connection. It's an obvious statement but goals are huge in football. Beyond the scoreline they control momentum, mentality an energy levels. Constantly struggling for goals is a real mental drag at any level of football.

Then chuck in Varane and Martinez being out. CM's being over 30 and therefore naturally a bit up and down physically.

 

[Charles89]

Really should have been 1-2 goals up inside the first 20 minutes, but couldn't finish any of the chances, just like the last game. Hope ETH can turn this around with 1 week of rest.

 

[Leftback99]

I'm not sure it is. The beginning of the season wasn't great. I've debated this a few times but Rashford's purple patch has convinced some that we've been good all season. Pre world cup we ranged from bad to decent. If you strip away all the goodwill and excitement a new manager gets we've only had a handful of games that are really good full 90 mins.

Simple to me. Rashford's run of form was huge. I kept saying at the time if he drops off we'll be back to struggling and that's what's happened. Our goalscoring was and is still all about the Bruno to Rashford connection. It's an obvious statement but goals are huge in football. Beyond the scoreline they control momentum, mentality an energy levels. Constantly struggling for goals is a real mental drag at any level of football.

Then chuck in Varane and Martinez being out. CM's being over 30 and therefore naturally a bit up and down physically.

Yep. Many got carried away by the run of easier fixtures in the league after the WC, in addition to favourable home cup draws.

 

[londonredmaniac]

I'm not sure it is. The beginning of the season wasn't great. I've debated this a few times but Rashford's purple patch has convinced some that we've been good all season. Pre world cup we ranged from bad to decent. If you strip away all the goodwill and excitement a new manager gets we've only had a handful of games that are really good full 90 mins.

Simple to me. Rashford's run of form was huge. I kept saying at the time if he drops off we'll be back to struggling and that's what's happened. Our goalscoring was and is still all about the Bruno to Rashford connection. It's an obvious statement but goals are huge in football. Beyond the scoreline they control momentum, mentality an energy levels. Constantly struggling for goals is a real mental drag at any level of football.

Then chuck in Varane and Martinez being out. CM's being over 30 and therefore naturally a bit up and down physically.

I'll be honest. I feel/felt the same now and at the time.

I got a called a miserable twat (I am by the way) but I never thought we were anything but ok and that we might get found out.

We are ok in patches. Good here and there. Unfortunately though we are horrendously soft centered. Basically those Arsenal sides of 4th place without being as good to watch.

Only my opinion mind. If we get 4th and avoid getting absolutely battered in the cup final then job done I suppose. Still, that shows how much work there is to do.

 

[londonredmaniac]

Yep. Many got carried away by the run of easier fixtures in the league after the WC, in addition to favourable home cup draws.

Our run in both cups has been very fortunate, tbf....and we were piss poor for the most part against both West Ham and Fulham.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Completely separate from yesterdays game but why do West Ham always treat the home match vs United as their biggest match of the season?

I thought they’d think of Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs as their big rivals. But I’ve heard many times their fans saying the United game at home is the one they always look for

Why? I feel like I’m missing some history

 

[HarryP]

A few mitigating factors -

1) West Ham played on Wednesday and rested key players (they said they were ill but that was BS imo, I knew they'd be back for our game). In contrast we played on the Thursday. There is a significant difference between a Wed-Sun and Thur-Sun turnaround with regards fatigue, and even more so when you are the away team having had the shorter turnaround.

2) West Ham played well for the most part, their key players were sharp and on their game.

3) Arsenal's performance at that ground was very similar after they blew their two goal lead there. Like us, they looked completely out of ideas and it was hard to see where the goal was coming from. So similar has happened to other top teams at this ground recently.



Also on the plus side, we limited West Ham to relatively few clear cut chances despite them being on top for large portions of the game. So the defense did ok for the most part and it'd be another clean sheet it weren't for DDG's blunder.

None of this is to excuse the team and the performance last night. There are clearly massive problems in build up, chance creation and chance conversion. The lack of intensity, focus and general inability to get a grip of the game was hugely worrying. But this was clearly far from a straight forward game and it requires a more balanced analysis!

 

[UTG]

Next game is a must win,and something needs to change up front, and has been a long time coming. I'm bored to death with the obsession with 4231. Let's go 442 from kick off.

De Gea
AWB, lindelof, Shaw, Dalot
Antony, Casemiro, Bruno, Sancho
Martial, Rashford

Wolves will sit back so we need Sancho who at least allows us touches in the box. He is not a last 15 minute impact sub. Bruno can dictate from deep. Ask Sancho and Antony to defend inside and attack wide. Martial and Rashford rotate deep.

 

[Offside]

Knew that overrated prick Rice would decide to give his best performance of the season

 

[Bestietom]

Knew that overrated prick Rice would decide to give his best performance of the season

Our players alowed him perform. We are just not good enough in midfield. We don't have the stamina to perform for full 90 minutes and allow teams to overun us in seacond half of games.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'm not sure it is. The beginning of the season wasn't great. I've debated this a few times but Rashford's purple patch has convinced some that we've been good all season. Pre world cup we ranged from bad to decent. If you strip away all the goodwill and excitement a new manager gets we've only had a handful of games that are really good full 90 mins.

Simple to me. Rashford's run of form was huge. I kept saying at the time if he drops off we'll be back to struggling and that's what's happened. Our goalscoring was and is still all about the Bruno to Rashford connection. It's an obvious statement but goals are huge in football. Beyond the scoreline they control momentum, mentality an energy levels. Constantly struggling for goals is a real mental drag at any level of football.

Then chuck in Varane and Martinez being out. CM's being over 30 and therefore naturally a bit up and down physically.

So you're saying if our best and most important players aren't playing well our performances and results will drop? That's a shocking revelation.

We've definitely been over-reliant on Rashford for goals all season. That's because of the gaping void we have at number 9. Which Weghorst clearly hasn't filled and Martial has helpfully reminded us recently that he is only a solution to anything based on hypothetical performances. The reality is deeply underwhelming.

If anything, it's huge credit to the manager to get us to where we are despite having such a deeply flawed squad. Obviously, if this flaw isn't fixed (which is a shared responsibilty between him and the club) before next season we're in deep doo doo.

 

[Marwood]

So you're saying if our best and most important players aren't playing well our performances and results will drop? That's a shocking revelation.

We've definitely been over-reliant on Rashford for goals all season. That's because of the gaping void we have at number 9. Which Weghorst clearly hasn't filled and Martial has helpfully reminded us recently that he is only a solution to anything based on hypothetical performances. The reality is deeply underwhelming.

If anything, it's huge credit to the manager to get us to where we are despite having such a deeply flawed squad. Obviously, if this flaw isn't fixed (which is a shared responsibilty between him and the club) before next season we're in deep doo doo.

No I said if one players form dropped, Rashford, we'd be back to struggling. Stated clear as day in the post you quoted.

Which obviously is shocking for a club like United.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

No I said if one players form dropped, Rashford, we'd be back to struggling. Stated clear as day in the post you quoted.

Which obviously is shocking for a club like United.

Well, yeah. We badly need a new, top class striker. Again, this isn’t new information.

 

[GazTheLegend]

Here's something I haven't stopped thinking about. Did Moyes deliberately pretend his three key players were ill to rest them for our game? Declan Rice as well as Tomas Soucek and Nayef Aguerd we're missing weren't they? They dodge the FA's rule about weakened teams through feigning "illness" as well.

Like I don't care particularly, he can do what he wants - but that speaks to Moyes and West Ham as clubs, we should probably still have beaten them but the extra rest for Rice definitely helped them.

 

[Bestietom]

We have 2 players who can score along with Rashford. One is back now from injury (Garnacho) the other one should be given more game time instead of Antony imo. and that is Pellestri. He can beat his man on inside or outside and can score and create goals.
I really think he should be given more game time i remaing fixtures.

 

[Oscar Bonavena]

Completely separate from yesterdays game but why do West Ham always treat the home match vs United as their biggest match of the season?

I thought they’d think of Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs as their big rivals. But I’ve heard many times their fans saying the United game at home is the one they always look for

Why? I feel like I’m missing some history

Does it go back to the Paul Ince transfer when he posed in a United shirt while still a West Ham player? They've had a hard on for us ever since. They took great pleasure in f**king us up in the league in 95 too.

Horrible little bastards the lot of em!

 

[Oscar Bonavena]

Here's something I haven't stopped thinking about. Did Moyes deliberately pretend his three key players were ill to rest them for our game? Declan Rice as well as Tomas Soucek and Nayef Aguerd we're missing weren't they? They dodge the FA's rule about weakened teams through feigning "illness" as well.

Like I don't care particularly, he can do what he wants - but that speaks to Moyes and West Ham as clubs, we should probably still have beaten them but the extra rest for Rice definitely helped them.

If that's the case, he was 100% correct to do what he did.

I know we'd have loved him to field a full strength team v City, probably get battered anyway, and be f**ked for our game where we'd sneak a win.

And everyone on Red Café would be praising what a lovely, honest little manager Moyes is!

Doesn't work like that in the real world unfortunately! He played the situation perfectly.

 

[HarryP]

So you're saying if our best and most important players aren't playing well our performances and results will drop? That's a shocking revelation.

We've definitely been over-reliant on Rashford for goals all season. That's because of the gaping void we have at number 9. Which Weghorst clearly hasn't filled and Martial has helpfully reminded us recently that he is only a solution to anything based on hypothetical performances. The reality is deeply underwhelming.

If anything, it's huge credit to the manager to get us to where we are despite having such a deeply flawed squad. Obviously, if this flaw isn't fixed (which is a shared responsibilty between him and the club) before next season we're in deep doo doo.

It's easy to focus on the lack of #9 but it isn't the main issue imo. City scored all around them last season without a recognised #9, Jesus isn't prolific for Arsenal (and missed a chunk of the season anyhow), Bayern don't have a top #9 but still score plenty and are far more dangerous in attack than us.

Imo a bigger issue is our fullbacks. They offer very little in attack - they never look a threat and don't combine with our wide players at all. There's a total disconnect between the current fullbacks and Antony/Rashford/Sancho. Their profiles are mismatches and they don't compliment each other at all .

It's no coincidence that we looked a lot better on the eye when Shaw was LB and Dalot was in form at RB earlier on in the season. Not having good attacking fullbacks is killing our wingers and making us look toothless. An elite CF would help paper over the cracks but aquiring one it isn't the necessity that it's made out to be imo. We could improve dramatically with a couple of top class additions at fullback. I doubt City would entertain a sale to us but we should try for Cancelo.

 

[GueRed]

Does it go back to the Paul Ince transfer when he posed in a United shirt while still a West Ham player? They've had a hard on for us ever since. They took great pleasure in f**king us up in the league in 95 too.

Horrible little bastards the lot of em!

1992 as well

 

[Marwood]

Well, yeah. We badly need a new, top class striker. Again, this isn’t new information.

You're making this hard work Pogue.

So my point wasn't simply we need a new No.9 or that we struggle when all our best players are missing. That would be obvious yes. It's why I didn't say that despite your efforts to make out I did.

I've said something you don't agree with obviously but it's a lot easier to debate if you don't as a result misrepresent what's been said.

My point was when all the plaudits were coming in post world cup I felt we were always completely reliant on one player. Rashford. I said at the time if his form drops we'd be in trouble despite many believing we'd turned a corner as a team.

There aren't many other teams this reliant on one guy. Spurs maybe.

 

[GueRed]

Disappointing result.

Yes De Gea pushed one in again like Brentford at the start of the season and deserves criticism.

But the rest of the team were toothless going forward again. A stroll for West Ham. Poor

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You're making this hard work Pogue.

So my point wasn't simply we need a new No.9 or that we struggle when all our best players are missing. That would be obvious yes. It's why I didn't say that despite your efforts to make out I did.

I've said something you don't agree with obviously but it's a lot easier to debate if you don't as a result misrepresent what's been said.

My point was when all the plaudits were coming in post world cup I felt we were always completely reliant on one player. Rashford. I said at the time if his form drops we'd be in trouble despite many believing we'd turned a corner as a team.

There aren't many other teams this reliant on one guy. Spurs maybe.

What would make us less reliant on one guy to score all our goals? Perhaps signing a new top class striker might help? I don't know why my pointing this out to you seems to bother you so much?

 

[Leftback99]

Here's something I haven't stopped thinking about. Did Moyes deliberately pretend his three key players were ill to rest them for our game? Declan Rice as well as Tomas Soucek and Nayef Aguerd we're missing weren't they? They dodge the FA's rule about weakened teams through feigning "illness" as well.

Like I don't care particularly, he can do what he wants - but that speaks to Moyes and West Ham as clubs, we should probably still have beaten them but the extra rest for Rice definitely helped them.

It was very convenient put it that way. But who can blame them, ours was a much more winnable game.

 

[GazTheLegend]

If that's the case, he was 100% correct to do what he did.

I know we'd have loved him to field a full strength team v City, probably get battered anyway, and be f**ked for our game where we'd sneak a win.

And everyone on Red Café would be praising what a lovely, honest little manager Moyes is!

Doesn't work like that in the real world unfortunately! He played the situation perfectly.

Well, it's against the rules for a reason. You're supposed to play the same side in week 38 that you might face in week 1. That said, it's a pretty pathetic thing to complain about really, it's his squad and he can use it however he wants. And it worked for him so yeah... job completed and we will face the same pricks again next season. That said, somehow it feels small time to me. As to praising what a lovely, honest little manager Moyes is - I won't lie to you about your chances of finding that here, but you have my sympathy.

 

[Drizzle]

We have 2 players who can score along with Rashford. One is back now from injury (Garnacho) the other one should be given more game time instead of Antony imo. and that is Pellestri. He can beat his man on inside or outside and can score and create goals.
I really think he should be given more game time i remaing fixtures.

Pellistri?

The guy has scored basically zero goals in club football.

 

[GazTheLegend]

Disappointing result.

Yes De Gea pushed one in again like Brentford at the start of the season and deserves criticism.

But the rest of the team were toothless going forward again. A stroll for West Ham. Poor

Its entirely on de Gea. We were in total control until that point. You might blame the players mentally for dropping a level after the clanger but who can blame them? If you have to work 3x as hard as the opposition to score while literally GIVING goals away what chance have you got of winning -any- game. It's the same as when a bad refereeing decision goes against you.

Every single player needs to be mentally stronger than they have been, but it's hard as a fan to watch absolute fecking howlers from our defenders every single week without giving up on the team. How much harder is it to carry on when you're playing alongside that garbage?

 

[Marwood]

What would make us less reliant on one guy to score all our goals? Perhaps signing a new top class striker might help? I don't know why my pointing this out to you seems to bother you so much?

If you want to debate by misrepresenting what somebody's said go at it. If you're further confused as to why that might be tiresome I don't know what to say.

But my point was me never being convinced this team had made big strides and was in fact still completely reliant on one guy and one basic style. When all around, despite knowing we need a new striker, plenty believed this team had made great improvements as a whole.

Quite different to simply saying we need a new number 9 or a team isn't as good without all its best players.

Can't explain it more simply than that Pogue.

 

[bosnian_red]

You're making this hard work Pogue.

So my point wasn't simply we need a new No.9 or that we struggle when all our best players are missing. That would be obvious yes. It's why I didn't say that despite your efforts to make out I did.

I've said something you don't agree with obviously but it's a lot easier to debate if you don't as a result misrepresent what's been said.

My point was when all the plaudits were coming in post world cup I felt we were always completely reliant on one player. Rashford. I said at the time if his form drops we'd be in trouble despite many believing we'd turned a corner as a team.

There aren't many other teams this reliant on one guy. Spurs maybe.

Of course we relied on Rashford. Look at our other attackers. Look at our central strikers. There are literally 20 central strikers who are better than what we are capable of putting out. There are relegation teams who have better striker options than what we have, and the same applies in goal. That doesn't mean that the system wasn't good, or that we massively improved as a team. Your individual attacking players are incredibly important in football, for every club. If the only player who knows how to score is Rashford, then yeah everything will go to shit when he loses form. That's what happens when your central attackers are championship standard and the other attackers are going through mental breakdowns or are all kids who are adapting to the league. You can have the best system in the world, but at the end of the day, you need the players to execute it, to score the goals.

Goals change games. Just like if we score some of the chances we make it would really change the game in our favor, also palming the ball into our own goal massively changes the game and makes it a feck ton harder. Conceding like we did is a huge blow to our confidence and a huge boost to theirs. We aren't a team who is there yet where we can recover well from those set backs.

 

[Marwood]

Of course we relied on Rashford. Look at our other attackers. Look at our central strikers. There are literally 20 central strikers who are better than what we are capable of putting out. There are relegation teams who have better striker options than what we have, and the same applies in goal. That doesn't mean that the system wasn't good, or that we massively improved as a team. Your individual attacking players are incredibly important in football, for every club. If the only player who knows how to score is Rashford, then yeah everything will go to shit when he loses form. That's what happens when your central attackers are championship standard and the other attackers are going through mental breakdowns or are all kids who are adapting to the league. You can have the best system in the world, but at the end of the day, you need the players to execute it, to score the goals.

Goals change games. Just like if we score some of the chances we make it would really change the game in our favor, also palming the ball into our own goal massively changes the game and makes it a feck ton harder. Conceding like we did is a huge blow to our confidence and a huge boost to theirs. We aren't a team who is there yet where we can recover well from those set backs.

I mostly agree but what you've said above wasn't the stance when we were getting good results. At that point, the club, the mentality, all individuals, had apparently completely been turned around. Lots of talk about "patterns of play" etc that we'd not seen before.

If at that stage you said hang on, our attacking play hasn't really changed, we're still completely reliant on Rashford. Our go to strategy is still Bruno over the top to Rashford, you got pounded.

Now we're struggling, as you've said above, we're back to realising actually not that much has changed in our attacking play. It's the same old stuff.

 

[bosnian_red]

I mostly agree but what you've said above wasn't the stance when we were getting good results. At that point, the club, the mentality, all individuals, had apparently completely been turned around. Lots of talk about "patterns of play" etc that we'd not seen before.

If at that stage you said hang on, our attacking play hasn't really changed, we're still completely reliant on Rashford. Our go to strategy is still Bruno over the top to Rashford, you got pounded.

Now we're struggling, as you've said above, we're back to realising actually not that much has changed in our attacking play. It's the same old stuff.

I think the patterns of play are still there, but you do need players to do well individually to execute the patterns of play to a high level. I still think our attacking play has changed. It's just when players are out of form, it gets harder to see especially when you don't have enough actually good players. Plus, no composure in the squad, mentally fragile players meaning they revert to just forcing it through the one guy who can provide a cutting edge rather than resetting and going back to the system.

 

[gerdm07]

No chance of Liverpool dropping points at Leicester - have you seen how poor they are? they aren't suddenly going to start playing like they did in their title-winning season. I'd be surprised if they dropped any point at all in their remaining games: we may need Villa to do us a favour but I can't see it coming

LC have won one and drawn 2 from their last 3 matches. They should win today. Liverpool have not been winning easily and it's going to catch them sooner or later.

 

[Hughie77]

Firstly poor result from a GK error. Secondly the FA needs to doing something about the integrity of the Premier league! West Ham play on Wed and drop 4 top players against City who are going for a title against Arsenal? Supposedly ILL ??.. all those players played on Sunday, and now one of them has come out and said they Trageted the game that they could get something out of! Now does that mean they threw the City game, sounds like it to me.

 

[Chris-Red]

Firstly poor result from a GK error. Secondly the FA needs to doing something about the integrity of the Premier league! West Ham play on Wed and drop 4 top players against City who are going for a title against Arsenal? Supposedly ILL ??.. all those players played on Sunday, and now one of them has come out and said they Trageted the game that they could get something out of! Now does that mean they threw the City game, sounds like it to me.

Thats a stretch! Obviously they'd have a much better chance against us than against City. There is nothing against the rules by resting players.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Firstly poor result from a GK error. Secondly the FA needs to doing something about the integrity of the Premier league! West Ham play on Wed and drop 4 top players against City who are going for a title against Arsenal? Supposedly ILL ??.. all those players played on Sunday, and now one of them has come out and said they Trageted the game that they could get something out of! Now does that mean they threw the City game, sounds like it to me.

Sure this has been going on for a long time, remember Blackpool going back.

 

[Offside]

Some of the football yesterday was decent. We just can’t score at the moment. What I really hate though is the way we just diminish second half. So jaded by the end.

 

[Chris-Red]

Still pissed off about the total lack of urgency, intensity and concentration yesterday. Actually looked like they were not interested.

This was what most annoyed me. Knocking the ball slowly around the back after conceding. No urgency to get an equaliser quick in order to push on for a winner.

 

[lex talionis]

We learned nothing we didn’t already know, such as our poor finishing. We can recite the litany of deficiencies that we already know, but all I would to focus on here is that I hope the sale of the club gets wrapped up by the end of May and not July/August so that we can get on with strengthening the squad.

 

[Josep Dowling]

I knew once Varane and Martinez were injured we would struggle to maintain top 4. Our replacement CBs simply aren’t good enough and have shown this for 5 years. Also De Gea loses all confidence without Martinez and Varane.

My biggest frustration about the game is ETH persistence with the same players. A trait that has been a major issue for all managers post Fergie. Try something new ffs. We have gone from Rashford, Weghorst, Antony to Rashford, Martial, Sancho and now gone back to previous. They aren’t scoring.

I know we have limited options and not signing a decent CF in January could cost us a Champions League place and potentially would have helped us win the Europa League. Unfortunately we have owners who lack any form of foresight.

Ten Hag makes the same changes over and over again. Try Bruno as a false 9, get Garnacho on as a sub. This would also give us a more defensive structured midfield as well, protecting the awful CB pairing. I question whether Rashford is actually fit since he went down with a hamstring injury. The manager should make an assessment rather than trusting the player saying he’s fit. Rashford has previous with his shoulder injury.

It’s slowly becoming a frustrating season when there were so many positives 3 months ago. I was pessimistic going into the season so winning a trophy and being in a shout for top 4 is a success. But when you consider we once again spent over £200m how can this team only make marginal improvements? We have so many advantages against other clubs in the league but are hopeless in the transfer market. That budget should have got a CF in, the money spent on Antony was ridiculous, and again that decision falls on Ten Hag.

 

[Hughie77]

Thats a stretch! Obviously they'd have a much better chance against us than against City. There is nothing against the rules by resting players.

The players have to be injured or ill within the rules you cannot deliberately put out a weakend side ? And because they got a game west ham have on Thursday they'd decided to rest or pull against CITY not the game before Thursday? This has to be investigated by the FA . It stinks that all 4 were ill ?

 

[Nicoseth]

Still pissed off about the total lack of urgency, intensity and concentration yesterday. Actually looked like they were not interested.

Think this take is unfair. They are exhausted. Played more games this season than any other team in the league, plus a world cup. Confidence is also low I think. We actually played well until we conceded then didn't have the energy to respond.