[Stretford End Phil]

Reminded me of the 1-5 reversal at Palace all those years ago when years of chronic mismanagement by the board came to a head. Then it took relegation and radical surgery to get the team back in contention and even then the board conspired to screw things up.

The side that was out there today did not look like a Manchester United team from any era. They looked like a disjointed gaggle of players who did not play for each other. Some hid in plain sight while others just went through the motions. They let the supporters down and if they had any decency, they'd club together and give them a refund.

O'Farrell was unable to enforce his authority over Bestie and Lawman. He was too soft, received too little financial investment, and suffered from Busby's looming presence. This present situation is almost the direct opposite with the manager's over bearing authority, an over investment in terms of outlay, and only the presence of Giggs and Fergie admits to the past.

In theory after the investment levels we should be running away with the league but the players are completely lost. They're too young, too inexperienced, and have not been properly bedded into the club. Players are becoming scapegoats to a rash transfer policy, being over-rated, and incoherent tactical changes. LVG is inconsistent with almost every half time turnaround. His team is crap without Rooney and only marginally better when he plays.

Today, Carrick showed his hand speaking one game and playing another. Fellaini is simply not up to it and Juan drifts too far out of the game. Ander ends up running like a midfield engine but often gets no support. Depay and Martial should be supported with Chico, Wilson, and AJ to help field the pressure. To be left with three realistic forwards without game changers at this stage of the season is almost gross incompetence.

I'am beginning to think Red Dreams' argument is more and more convincing.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Really sad after those swashbuckling pressers.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

Me either. Lots of people trying to save face since Moyes got the sack and don't want to take any responsibility for it.

Believing the contents of any football player or manager's books is often misplaced. They should be made by law to open with 'Once upon time ...'

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Discussing post match player performances is a bit pointless at this point imo, with a managerial change being discussed.

Think it is pointless as I have said we don't know what is going on behind the scenes and what is going through all the players minds. Who was trying and who wasn't.

 

[Sylar]

I feel sorry for him at times cos of stupid individual mistakes like Memphis back header, or us failing to score when chances are actually made. But then he brings a lot of shit on himself (Him being LVG) like playing Carrick and Fellaini again and not playing Morgan away at Stoke.

Then he panics and just changes it around with no plan. Anybody could do that? He basically cant change a game at all with subs or tactics.

I also think hes done a good job of killing the confidence of our youngsters by hanging them out to dry, blaming them in the media, over playing them or playing them out of position. Its so frustrating.

 

[.Rossi]

11 points off the 40 needed to avoid relegation

 

[Jazz]

11 points off the 40 needed to avoid relegation

Surely the players can manage to drag their lazy arses out of their comfort zone and go and win 4 matches to avoid the drop? Absolute shambles

 

[Fergus' son]

Giggs should be added on this list.

Giggs is fine, it's Rooney and Woodward that I have missed.

 

[manufanatic]

Sad times, one player, in Depay, let the manager down completely today. You can't plan for that. The rest of them can't create and fellaini once again can't score from 6 yards out.

He'll be sacked for this. The players have seem to have forgotten this is a team game and were constantly trying to shift the responsibility to the next player to score. I can't believe Ashley young was probably out best player, playing out of position, both offensively and defensively!

I'm jusy fed up with the players more than the manager, but sadly he has to go now as the players are jusy refusing to play for him. New age of football management.

Sensible post how many times has the big hair missed a sitter this year this discussion wouldn't be going on. And of course the manager isn't responsible for stupid decisions the players make ie depay. I like LVG so this sucks but the players need to be railed on as well. I love our away support cheering Rooney at the end but today they should have been booed of the pitch.

 

[manufanatic]

Martial is a gem on the ball but there's a problem that he only comes to life when he gets the ball. Quite laboured off the ball when you hope for runs in behind.

Herrera is very overrated. Peak Fletcher is a better player yet Herrera is made out to be a saviour. Good squad player but no more IMO

I agree I wish we had a Fletcher type of player we are spineless

 

[Lennon7]

Martial is a gem on the ball but there's a problem that he only comes to life when he gets the ball. Quite laboured off the ball when you hope for runs in behind.

Herrera is very overrated. Peak Fletcher is a better player yet Herrera is made out to be a saviour. Good squad player but no more IMO

I think Herrera playing infront of Schweini and Schneiderlin in a midfield 3 would be great.

He doesn't do that well when he's playing in a midfield 2 as he's not really the best defensively, however aggressive he may be.

 

[marlowe78]

11 points off the 40 needed to avoid relegation

I'm seriously wondering if a drop to the 2nd division is actually what we need. That already happened to us before.

 

[Moriarty]

O'Farrell was unable to enforce his authority over Bestie and Lawman. He was too soft, received too little financial investment, and suffered from Busby's looming presence. This present situation is almost the direct opposite with the manager's over bearing authority, an over investment in terms of outlay, and only the presence of Giggs and Fergie admits to the past.

In theory after the investment levels we should be running away with the league but the players are completely lost. They're too young, too inexperienced, and have not been properly bedded into the club. Players are becoming scapegoats to a rash transfer policy, being over-rated, and incoherent tactical changes. LVG is inconsistent with almost every half time turnaround. His team is crap without Rooney and only marginally better when he plays.

Today, Carrick showed his hand speaking one game and playing another. Fellaini is simply not up to it and Juan drifts too far out of the game. Ander ends up running like a midfield engine but often gets no support. Depay and Martial should be supported with Chico, Wilson, and AJ to help field the pressure. To be left with three realistic forwards without game changers at this stage of the season is almost gross incompetence.

I'am beginning to think Red Dreams' argument is more and more convincing.

All good points that I can't argue with. @Red Dreams is one of the best posters on here and I give his opinions great weight.

Rooney did all right today for the most part but his run of bad form has lasted far too long. He's not playing as a captain should, that's for sure. When you look back to captains like Keane, Robson, and Buchan, Rooney doesn't have half of their leadership qualities. I thought, a few years ago, that Rooney was ideal captain material, but he's lost the drive and hunger which made him one of the game's best players.

Shipping out Wilson, Januzaj, and Chico, in hindsight, is proving to be a fairly significant mistake. Injuries to Shaw, Darmian, Rojo, and others hasn't helped but when you've got a small squad to start with, injuries can reduce it to the thickness of a Rizla before you know it.

I think it's all over for Van Gaal now. If we give Mourinho a miss and Pep goes to City, we'll look pretty bloody stupid but it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Yorkeontop]

Martial is a gem on the ball but there's a problem that he only comes to life when he gets the ball. Quite laboured off the ball when you hope for runs in behind.

Herrera is very overrated. Peak Fletcher is a better player yet Herrera is made out to be a saviour. Good squad player but no more IMO

Ander was awful today I'll give you that and peak Fletcher never played for this shower of crap.

 

[Moriarty]

I'm seriously wondering if a drop to the 2nd division is actually what we need. That already happened to us before.

But then we had Tommy Docherty. We're more likely to go into another long and miserable slump Liverpool-style than go down.

 

[montpelier]

How do we seem to have ended up with half a team who can play but can't run & the other half can run/tackle/jump/elbow but can't actually play.

 

[Name Changed]

Van Gaal doesn't have a plan. I can't see this philosophy. The players clearly can't see it either. They showed absolutely no testicular fortitude today. They aren't going to play for him. He's finished and he knows it.

 

[77]

I went back to bed around the 70th minute. Never done that before, too painful to watch.

 

[Shamwow]

Merry fecking Christmas.

Apart from Dave, Mike, Anthony, Ashley and the youngsters just sell em all.

 

[Hed Zitin]

Erm... Very worried. There is feck all vibrance. We look a wreck.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

There was a nasty looking two footer from one of Stokes troglodytes on Mata in the 2nd half. Any chance that's going to get the same review Schweinsteiger got? Ref obviously thought there was nothing in it so I predict it wasn't in his report. Left Mata in a heap. Excessive force is an understatement.

 

[spwd]

I bet we will look a lot better when he's gone, like a massive weight lifted from all of them.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

But then we had Tommy Docherty. We're more likely to go into another long and miserable slump Liverpool-style than go down.

We may not go down but we are not far from a serious plunge into the nether regions of the table. No big name manager would want to work outside the EPL unlike the old days.

Back in the day the Doc was already preparing for the comeback. I sat with him, Brian Greenhoff and Martin on the return train from the Norwich game. He began by saying we would be staying up, which we didn't, but was even more confident of us bouncing back from relegation. I never had any doubts after that time, what the Doc said usually happened. For all his personal faults he was pretty straight with fans and pundits about his football.

 

[Moriarty]

We may not go down but we are not far from a serious plunge into the nether regions of the table. No big name manager would want to work outside the EPL unlike the old days.

Maybe so, but much would depend on the autonomy given to the manager. If the job comes with the proviso that Ryan Giggs is the assistant, I would think that would narrow the list of candidates.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

Maybe so, but much would depend on the autonomy given to the manager. If the job comes with the proviso that Ryan Giggs is the assistant, I would think that would narrow the list of candidates.

Well after the commotion last week Giggs was stuck to the bench. I can't imagine a top man accepting Giggs alongside him if he doesn't have any faith in him. I would have thought Jose or Pep can pretty much dictate their terms.

 

[Moriarty]

I would have thought Jose or Pep can pretty much dictate their terms.

You'd think so. Did Pep take an assistant with him to Bayern?

 

[Red Dreams]

But then we had Tommy Docherty. We're more likely to go into another long and miserable slump Liverpool-style than go down.

we got lucky with Fergie after the Docherty mistake. Perhaps him winning a European trohpy with a Scottish side was not too huge a gamble. Remember thinking at the time ...shades of Stein!

tbh I don't see any manager staying for so long. But we do have money and we are financially set up to be bigger than Madrid.

btw I'm not saying anything most of the older supporters on here have said. We have seen it all. We have gone through a blip as Fergie would say. The difference is we always felt Fergie would turn us around. You don't get the feeling van Gaal has it in him to do that...simply because he knows the players don't believe in him anymore.

 

[Red Dreams]

You'd think so. Did Pep take an assistant with him to Bayern?

there was talk Maurinho wanted a say about who is his assistant. May be one of the sticking points to be discussed. Personally I would be happy if he did bring someone of his choice in.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

we got lucky with Fergie after the Docherty mistake. Perhaps him winning a European trohpy with a Scottish side was not too huge a gamble. Remember thinking at the time ...shades of Stein!

tbh I don't see any manager staying for so long. But we do have money and we are financially set up to be bigger than Madrid.

btw I'm not saying anything most of the older supporters on here have said. We have seen it all. We have gone through a blip as Fergie would say. The difference is we always felt Fergie would turn us around. You don't get the feeling van Gaal has it in him to do that...simply because he knows the players don't believe in him anymore.

You wonder how much further Tommy Doc would have taken us if sex hadn't intervened?

 

[Moriarty]

Remember thinking at the time ...shades of Stein!

A man we tried to bring in to replace Matt Busby. Stein wasn't that daft and stayed at Celtic.

btw I'm not saying anything most of the older supporters on here have said. We have seen it all. We have gone through a blip as Fergie would say. The difference is we always felt Fergie would turn us around. You don't get the feeling van Gaal has it in him to do that...simply because he knows the players don't believe in him anymore.

With Fergie, you never got the impression that the players weren't playing for him. We had some bloody duck eggs in the team like Djemba Djemba and Bellion, but, as bad as they were, they tried. Van Gaal just seems to have alienated the whole damned team and there's no end in sight. My guess is he'll jump before he's pushed.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

You'd think so. Did Pep take an assistant with him to Bayern?

He took a few guys with him, part of his inner circle. As I understand it for every Spanish assistant there is a German. The backroom at Bayern is quite well padded.

 

[Moriarty]

You wonder how much further Tommy Doc would have taken us if sex hadn't intervened?

Champions before 1980.

 

[Moriarty]

He took a few guys with him, part of his inner circle. As I understand it for every Spanish assistant there is a German. The backroom at Bayern is quite well padded.

Bayern has it pretty well sussed.

 

[Leftback99]

You can get rid of LVG but tell me how that turns your players into world beaters?

Too many are just not good enough.

Splash out another £250m in a market where clubs will add an extra £10m per player just because it Utd buying and knowing they're desperate and honestly, no CL, what top players will want to come, anyway?

If Spurs finish top 4 and given they're based in London, unbelievably, I think they'd be seen as a more attractive destination

We don't need 'world beaters', we've just been comfortably beaten by Stoke, Norwich, Bournemouth and Wolfsburg, there's barely a world beater between them. At this point we need a guy with a simple plan that the players believe in and understand, and who can motivate them to carry it out. Add a couple of new faces with added pace and quality in January and we have a slim chance of salvaging top 4 from this mess.

 

[Red Dreams]

You wonder how much further Tommy Doc would have taken us if sex hadn't intervened?

he replaced a number of ageing players and even though the new players were not the best we have ever seen, he got them playing as a team and we were very entertaning. No one can look into the future. the key is to make sensible decisions. We have did not do this when Fergie retired and we are where we are.

 

[Red Dreams]

Champions before 1980.

no arguments.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Bet the teams journey home was a bundle of laughs. Wonder if Giggs and Rooney shared the joke they were laughing about with the rest of the lads?

 

[Stretford End Phil]

we got lucky with Fergie after the Docherty mistake. Perhaps him winning a European trohpy with a Scottish side was not too huge a gamble. Remember thinking at the time ...shades of Stein!

tbh I don't see any manager staying for so long. But we do have money and we are financially set up to be bigger than Madrid.

btw I'm not saying anything most of the older supporters on here have said. We have seen it all. We have gone through a blip as Fergie would say. The difference is we always felt Fergie would turn us around. You don't get the feeling van Gaal has it in him to do that...simply because he knows the players don't believe in him anymore.

After the Doc we continued to make mistakes. There were great managers around like Clough and we opted for Ron and Dave. To screw up 3 times is a bit like the Dickens' Xmas story - United past, United present, United future.

The bold bit certainly points to today's performance. There can be no way out after that performance. It has to change before this downhill helter-skelter becomes a nose dive.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

Bayern has it pretty well sussed.

I do believe they have the model for the future management of a top flight club. They don't exploit the fans and their priority is entertaining football. Munich and big business buy into the model.

 

[Moriarty]

I do believe they have the model for the future management of a top flight club. They don't exploit the fans and their priority is entertaining football. Munich and big business buy into the model.

The exact opposite of us then.