[RedRocket9908]

One fecking league win in 13 PL games against these wankers. Let that fecking sink in.

God knows how many goals we have conceded in that time. Embarrassing is an understatement!

Weve conceeded 31 in that period and scored only 7

 

[Oscar Bonavena]

I really thought last season, drawing 2 and winning 1, we had gotten a better handle of playing Liverpool and had emerged from the era of taking batterings from them.

Sunday proved me wrong. We were so tactically naive, physically weak and technically deficient. They were only too happy for us to try and play it out from the back because they knew we'd be easy pickings, and they'd be left with an overload in attack.

Sick of making it so easy for these cnuts.

 

[redmanx]

I'm sorry but executives directors of football and technical directors do not select the 11 on the pitch nor do they instruct the team or coach them day to day. So whilst they may help in backing up the manager. The way the team plays is down to the instructions from the manager and the coaching.


Everything has completely changed at united it makes no sense at all to stubbornly keep one element that simply isn't working which is the manager.


There is no manager that guarantees success we are not special in that if a manager fails they need replacing that includes a replacement for ten hag.


We aren't chasing sustained success under a particular manager we are chasing sustained success as a club. Modern football tells you that there isn't time to come good or slowly change the tide because by the time you've figured it out your rivals have made the change and jumped ahead of you once again.


In 2024 and the Premier league changes happen quickly the competition is stronger the investment higher Villa Brighton Chelsea Palace other clubs are locked into the modern game and will make changes when needed. We have this romantic notion that the next fergie is just a backing away. It's pure fiction and if we continue to think that way we'll slip further and further behind.


Watching the game in person the mess in defenseive structure the embarrassment in midfield and the complete lack of any kind of structure in attack was alarming and comes solely down to the manager.


It's not good enough it won't work and the longer we stuck to it the worse it will get. Pull the plug and get your own guy in or we'll have many more days like today. No more pathetic excuses.

I agree, ETH must go, but have we got the right people at the top to get him out? Directors etc dont pick the team, but the buck ultimately stops with them if they cannot bring in a manager and give him every possible help to do a good job.

 

[justsomebloke]

Big picture; we are clearly still a dysfunctional team. Simple point which tells that story: All of our defenders played pretty well overall, and we lost 0-3. When you get victimised three times after a midfielder loses the ball playing out of our own third, what you have is a structural problem.

Casemiro wasn't much different than he was the first two games, it's just this time the mistakes ended up costing us goals. Up front though it was a reversal of normality, with Bruno having a very forgettable game by his standards and Garnacho a complete non-factor.

By now Rashford gets thrashed on pure negative momentum, but actually that wasn't a bad game by him - a significant step forward compared to his first two feeble outings. He created two big scoring chances in the second half, and was easily our best attacker on the night in my opinion.

But Zirkzee, what to make of Zirkzee? I thought he was absolutely awful in the first half, pottering about not looking switched on at all - a liability. Then in the second there's those chances he doesn't bury. On the other hand, that's quite a few times he gets into the right positions, which is not something we've seen much of in the last few years.

 

[justsomebloke]

Missed the game but watched the highlights, so can't comment on the whole game.

The goals are all gifts from individual mistakes.

1. Shite pass from Casemiro with everyone pushed on, get hit out of shape.

2. Shite under pressure from Casemiro, get hit out of shape.

3. Shite under pressure from Mainoo, get hit out of shape.


You really can't be so weak and lax on the ball in your own defensive third, shocking goals to concede at any level of football.

No, that's structure, much more than it's due to individual mistakes. Especially the last two. Look at the options Casemiro and Mainoo have in those situations. Look at how many Liverpool players are on them or close to them. Look at the complete lack of balance to deal with any ball loss. Ball losses happen. When they do, you have to deal with them. We couldn't - as soon as the ball was lost, Liverpool had an overload. If you have a system that relies on midfielders never losing the ball or hitting a wayward pass playing out of your own third, you have put yourself in the sack.

 

[Swordsman]

Are we better off just playing counter attacking football or stick to playing from the back which is clearly still an experimental phase, that means mistake will be continue to made till the team are fully adapted to playing from the back.

 

[justsomebloke]

Are we better off just playing counter attacking football or stick to playing from the back which is clearly still an experimental phase, that means mistake will be continue to made till the team are fully adapted to playing from the back.

That overlooks that it's not really a question of mistakes or execution. The basic problem in this case is plainly the system itself.

 

[Oranges038]

No, that's structure, much more than it's due to individual mistakes. Especially the last two. Look at the options Casemiro and Mainoo have in those situations. Look at how many Liverpool players are on them or close to them. Look at the complete lack of balance to deal with any ball loss. Ball losses happen. When they do, you have to deal with them. We couldn't - as soon as the ball was lost, Liverpool had an overload. If you have a system that relies on midfielders never losing the ball or hitting a wayward pass playing out of your own third, you have put yourself in the sack.

I see what you're saying, but they have to take some personal responsibility too.

For the first goal, Casemiro passes into bodies, he's not under much pressure, he doesn't have to force that pass. Goals 2 and 3, yeah they may have limited options. But they have to be stronger in holding off the challenging player, both get outmuscled too easily.

 

[justsomebloke]

I see what you're saying, but they have to take some personal responsibility too.

For the first goal, Casemiro passes into bodies, he's not under much pressure, he doesn't have to force that pass. Goals 2 and 3, yeah they may have limited options. But they have to be stronger in holding off the challenging player, both get outmuscled too easily.

Agreed - these are also mistakes. The first goal especially.

 

[Betson]

One fecking league win in 13 PL games against these wankers. Let that fecking sink in.

God knows how many goals we have conceded in that time. Embarrassing is an understatement!

It is not even a rivalry anymore in the league , it is too one sided it call it a rivalry. Never in the history of the two clubs has one of them been dominated so much by the other. It should be unacceptable but the standards have dropped so low it is just par for the course now , a hammering from them barely raises an eyebrow anymore.

 

[Shark]

It is not even a rivalry anymore in the league , it is too one sided it call it a rivalry. Never in the history of the two clubs has one of them been dominated so much by the other. It should be unacceptable but the standards have dropped so low it is just par for the course now , a hammering from them barely raises an eyebrow anymore.

I think at this point the club is better off just coming out with a statement, outlining and admitting to our new standards, instead of leading the fans on. The fact that a manager who dragged the club through the mud season was kept on, and Marcus Rashford still continues to start games is just mind-blowing.

 

[ZupZup]

That overlooks that it's not really a question of mistakes or execution. The basic problem in this case is plainly the system itself.

Can you explain why you think the system is the problem? Or why United have this structural issue?

I don’t feel like what we saw at the weekend is unique to United. When the other team wins the ball with a high press and you lose it in your own defensive third, you will find yourself short of players to defend the attack. The same would happen to City etc.

It’s why many of the best modern teams press high. Much easier to score when you win the ball in this scenario. Do you suggest an alternative where we try to build up from the back but with more players behind the ball? Obviously no one plays like that.

 

[Maticmaker]

Nobody really knows, but it's definitely not Churchill. Mark Twain and Disraeli seem to be the popular choices. Stats need context, a key element that's generally missing in the football world.


23 hours later and I'm still totally deflated. A defeat wasn't unexpected but not like that. Again. Being relieved it was 'only three' is not a good place to be. Don't know about the dressing room but Erik has definitely lost this living room.

Yes, Mark Twain seems to be the favourite (see also @Moriarty )
I'm very much in line with your thoughts, I optimistically thought we might get a 1-1 result . I'm beginning to think ETH is like the guy in 'Groundhog day' .
There is definitely still a 'schoolboy (sulk) mentality' whenever we go behind, and no real captaincy. Bruno has some good points in that role, but he needs others in the team who believe and who can pull up their socks with him.

Maybe I'm just an old man having a moan but, my goodness, it takes a lot of the fun out of it.

Yes, I agree, football is a simple game, the only 'stat' that counts is the final score.
Often wonder what the 'statisticians' would have made of George Best possession stats.... as Parkinson said " fifteen minutes of watching Best was worth the gate money alone"

 

[GueRed]

de Ligt - started well. ended up all at sea
Martinez - dodgy form continues. i'm just hoping its early season rustiness
Casimero - Basically same as last season. Less said the better
Bruno - Muted display, barely anything from him in the final third of the pitch
Rashfor - Confidence looks shot. Looks scared to have a go at the full-back
Zirkzee - Flimsy on the ball. Not solid at all. First half was terrible.

 

[justsomebloke]

Can you explain why you think the system is the problem? Or why United have this structural issue?

I don’t feel like what we saw at the weekend is unique to United. When the other team wins the ball with a high press and you lose it in your own defensive third, you will find yourself short of players to defend the attack. The same would happen to City etc.

It’s why many of the best modern teams press high. Much easier to score when you win the ball in this scenario. Do you suggest an alternative where we try to build up from the back but with more players behind the ball? Obviously no one plays like that.

Listen to Slot's post game interview. They'd identified our FBs moving up early, and overloaded the press in the central area to exploit that vulnerability, which netted them three goals. Sounds pretty structural to me.

For once, Jonathan Wilson gets it right: https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...-is-the-answer-to-manchester-uniteds-problems

 

[Jeffthered]

I thought it was Mark Twain but I could be wrong. However, the phrase is apt. This American obsession with statistics is all very well for their team sports but since it has been introduced into the English game (thanks Sky), a whole bloody industry has been built around it. Look at a match report from, say, 1985 or 1975 and there's no mention of assists and suchlike. Football really is such an uncomplicated game. I just watch the game and ignore the stats, the XG, heat maps, and uncle Tom Cobbly and all. For every player on the pitch, there seems to be half a dozen TV experts telling everyone how it can be done better. Maybe I'm just an old man having a moan but, my goodness, it takes a lot of the fun out of it.

Absolutely agree. Maybe I am also an old man having a whinge. But I see no improvements in the quality of players, despite this massive growth in 'stats/data' driven football.

 

[wolvored]

If TH persists with the same tactic/ style of play then he is a fool. If it’s that easy to spot by Slot, then all the top teams will know how to exploit it as well. As for the attack, why buy another novice striker to the Prem when we would have been better going for Toney? Our problems have been scoring goals and we already had one novice striker last season. We now have to hope Hojlund turns into Ruud Rooney.or at least Hughes

 

[ZupZup]

Listen to Slot's post game interview. They'd identified our FBs moving up early, and overloaded the press in the central area to exploit that vulnerability, which netted them three goals. Sounds pretty structural to me.

For once, Jonathan Wilson gets it right: https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...-is-the-answer-to-manchester-uniteds-problems

But... people act like what Slot said was some great tactical insight? It's something that is obvious to surely anyone who watches football regularly. If you press high and win the ball, you find yourself in 1 v 1 situations and sometimes outnumbering the team that gets caught out. The alternative is the attacking team beats your press with good decision making and pass execution. Something we clearly lacked at the weekend. I've just read Wilson's article... and there are points I don't agree with. Casemiro had not difficult passes on for him both times when he gave the ball away. This was something at least they highlighted on MOTD. Unfortunately, it's top level football and if you give the ball away in dangerous areas, you're in trouble.

The second goal we actually have enough players back to deal with it but unfortunately Martinez gives Diaz a yard of space and that's all he needs to finish first time. Very clinical.

The third goal, great pressing from Liverpool and you could argue Collyer should be closer to Mainoo... but within 3 or 4 seconds of losing the ball, it's in the back of the net. Salah is in space because Dalot is higher up... but you could equally pick out multiple instances in the match where Trent is high up too. The difference is, we weren't winning the ball high up and Liverpool weren't giving us gifts.

 

[croadyman]

When it got to 3-0 I thought may as well be 5

 

[GregM40]

It seemed obvious to me as a sort of basics in football, but why can't we just play over the press?

 

[Oldham]

Rewatching the first goal.
Although a simpler pass was out to Mazouri, I don't think it was a bad decision to pass to Dalot as it would've set up a good attack for us down the left side. But the execution was just so bad. I'm guessing he meant to hit it above the two or three Liverpool players but not low...

 

[Martinez4midfield]

I watched the extended highlights this morning and it wasn't as bad as it seemed. Zirkee could have had a hat trick. I think this is a completely different have with Rasmus. Not time to panic yet.

 

[lex talionis]

Call me crazy, but I thought we actually looked decent, if not at times superior, before the Casemiro abominations. In the end Liverpool would likely have found a way to win the game, but had we had a stronger presence at CDM we may well have won the game.

 

[Adamsk7]

Thing is, no matter how you look at things tactically and the midfield battle and the individual errors…..

Salah Jota Diaz

Garnacho Zirkzee Rashford

That’s the difference there. Put our front three in their team and they score zero goals. Put theirs in ours and we win the game

 

[Ghirahim]

Casemiro and Mainoo giving the ball away in dangerous areas. English football has moved on from the 90s and early 2000s, you cannot make mistakes like that in the modern game or you will never win the league.

 

[Kinsella]

It wouldn’t have changed the result but it’s an interesting observation nonetheless:



Apologies if it’s already been posted.

 

[Berbasbullet]

It wouldn’t have changed the result but it’s an interesting observation nonetheless:



Apologies if it’s already been posted.

Neh no one has posted it…

 

[Shark]

Thing is, no matter how you look at things tactically and the midfield battle and the individual errors…..

Salah Jota Diaz

Garnacho Zirkzee Rashford

That’s the difference there. Put our front three in their team and they score zero goals. Put theirs in ours and we win the game

So the question is, why is everyone saying we had a great transfer window.

 

[Adamsk7]

So the question is, why is everyone saying we had a great transfer window.

Because ee can’t sort it all out in one window and that top end of the pitch is the most expensive part. I’d imagine the plan is build a strong defensive foundation and then work from there. Be hard to beat first. I do get that we aren’t even there yet!

We’ve also got so many question marks in the forward area.

Is Rashford done?
Is Garnacho good enough?
Is Amad good enough?
Can we sell Antony?
Will Hojlund be a 30 goal striker?
Can Zirkzee develop the goals in to his game?
Can we even play with Bruno as a 10?

We have the most questions of any team in the league

 

[Hughie77]

I was screaming at the TV to stop those sloppy straight passes, played right into there hands they had 4 pressing , and not once did Onana who was realy slow with the ball causing more of a press, hit it long , none of the CBs either it's to late when 2 zip down.

It's just sometimes play what's in front of you use the few inches in your head for a bit. If they go long to Rashford or Zirkzee a few times those 4 pressing turns into 2 pressing . I know there coached that way to play out from the back but Onana has to be quicker with his passes if its slow he has to go longer ..

 

[Matt Varnish]

An absolutely awful performance and conceded all our goals due to mistakes (2x Casemiro, 1x Mainoo). The players seemed to lack any spatial awareness and strength and were just bullied off the ball.

The only positive I can take from the game is De Ligt looked good and very composed. Dalot also had a good game

I'm not annoyed that we lost, but it is the manner that we lost and the players didn't show any intensity or heart and just made the game so easy for Liverpool.

But anyway don't worry all, we will see the players post on social media that they are "sorry," they are "working hard," they "will go again and fix these problems" etc. Basically the same excuses we have heard for years and the players taking the fans as fools.

Anyway let's all just be glad we have the international break and can have a break from this for a couple of weeks.

What makes yoou think the players actually write that sh1t?

He won't make it through the season. But who do we get to replace? All the good managers have jobs now.

We spent the best part of the summer looking for someone, Neville said it, and there was no-one available, to prise one away from a club now would cost a kings ransom

There’s no plan. The best the fans can come up with is “sack the manager.” The club is a bust until someone with the ability and focus of Ferguson comes in.

Its all well saying Eric should be sacked, but what’s the point if it just leads to another hasty appointment?

My view entirely, I'm not sure Ruud is ready to step up, even if he would. Who else is there who could turn this lot into a cohesive unit?

 

[Matt Varnish]

It wouldn’t have changed the result but it’s an interesting observation nonetheless:



Apologies if it’s already been posted.

Clutching at straws.
Referees run the opposite diagonal to the halves their assistants are running

 

[Matt Varnish]

Because ee can’t sort it all out in one window and that top end of the pitch is the most expensive part. I’d imagine the plan is build a strong defensive foundation and then work from there. Be hard to beat first. I do get that we aren’t even there yet!

We’ve also got so many question marks in the forward area.

Is Rashford done?
Is Garnacho good enough?
Is Amad good enough?
Can we sell Antony?
Will Hojlund be a 30 goal striker?
Can Zirkzee develop the goals in to his game?
Can we even play with Bruno as a 10?

We have the most questions of any team in the league

Is Rashford done? Yes, unless he alters his game, defenders have him sussed, they stand off him now, so he can't push the ball past them and run for it.
Is Garnacho good enough? ETH is doing his best to coach the talent out of him and piss him off
Is Amad good enough? Hard to tell, he's not a first on the team sheet for me, even now when we are bereft of players with talent
Can we sell Antony? Ony at a loss, and we are still hoping some club will match his stupid wages
Will Hojlund be a 30 goal striker? I doubt it, he's another Harry Kane on International Form
Can Zirkzee develop the goals in to his game? He has to adapt to the EPL, the question is "Can he do it"?
Can we even play with Bruno as a 10? Bruno is a whinger and a whiner, he coudn't motivate a bloke with the shits to go to the toilet

 

[Matt Varnish]

The truth is United never signed world class players, if they did, it very often didn't work out.
What United were good at, was making world class players, for that you need great backroom staff.
At the moment we have a manager and backroom team trying to prove their credentials in the EPL, that never works.
Everyone goes on about how Fergusom built great teams, but forget he had great backroom staff to help him do it.
Since INEOS took over we have had massive changes in staff, the boardroom, and probably the tea lady, so why have we stuck with ETH a coach that has proven time and again he's not up to the standard demanded by the EPL

 

[Rams]

I disagree negatieve comments about Zirkzee. He played a strange match, yet he got in very good positions for his chances and the shot he had that was saved by Alisson was a real bit of quality. I think he’s very gifted and going to be a class act.