[The United Irishman]

I'm sorry to say, absolute Load of crap the bolded part. Herrera is good whnever he plays and Martial was our best attacker today and most games he played. Teams arent going to leave him free like they did in the first games for him to score. Its common sense.

Yeah and he was shit, so what does that tell you then?

 

[dead joe]

Backward passes and possesion are not the issue imo, it's the time each player spends dwelling on the ball. I mean, tiki-taka isn't just about the possession, it's about one-touch passing, two touches at most. It is absolutely pointless if everybody keeps the ball for ten seconds before passing it, like our players do. It gives the opposition all the time in the world to regroup.

Oh, and is it just me or was there a ridiculous amount of throw-ins in that game ? Most of them really half-arsed and pointless too, i might add.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

My take was: bit surprised by change of formation, but van gaal obviously reacted to leicester, didn't really work, but that formation leaves us so light on bodies going forward.

Darmian is so unsuited to an attacking role. Biggest culprit for todays underperformance. Good defender, appalling attacker. Missed valencia so much today.

Mata just doesn't ever deliver at 10 in an LVG team. Looking forward to having an effective 10 some day.

Carrick hasn't got going this season

 

[sglowrider]

TBF, I don't have any valid opinions as I was a sleep before half-time. I honestly have to read the threads here to find out what went on, never mind doing Player's Ratings. Its starting to become an all too common reaction.

And I thought Barca's tiki-taka was tedious and boring. We must have bought the prototype version.

 

[2 man midfield]

Only just watched this. We need something out wide, we're so shit. It's become our new problem area after the 5 year horror that was the midfield. We've needed someone there for a good 3/4 years, but every time we sign someone they either get robbed and bugger off, are shit or get benched. We need an actual, consistent winger.

 

[Red Dreams]

LvG tried hard to get Bale...but

 

[Red Dreams]

we take too many touches before taking a shot.

 

[11101]

Again we struggled to break down a team that sat every man behind the ball and had shrunk their pitch to stifle us. Our players obviously instructed not to shoot outside the box.

Leicester are an amazing team to behold and explain perfectly why English football is falling behind. They're terrible technically, but by being overly physical, running alot, and running fast, you can get to the top of the league.

 

[ghagua]

Kasper Schmeichel could not not have had an easier game in his dreams. Apart from the corners, absolutely nothing created from open play.

 

[SoCross]

Why three at the back! Why why why!

Louie, sort this crap out now.

 

[hubbuh]

We have lost that extra desire to win games, it seems that way anyway. We hardly create any goal scoring chances, its so frustrating to watch. Was Darmian's shot at the end our first attempt from out side the box?

Things aren't right that's for sure, it doesn't help having a combination of out of form attackers and inconsistent young ones too. The senior players like Young Carrick and Rooney were well below the expected standard today. We don't have a single in form attacker, someone who is a real threat. Martial is the closest we have to that but its not enough.

Watford literally last week aside? What we lack is a comprehensible ability in consistently applying pressure. Too often we drift about the game with no real purpose. If we went into games with the intention to crush teams as opposed to control them I think we'd at least be more entertaining to watch if nothing else. I don't know how much more I can hack of our current outings.

 

[hubbuh]

Only just watched this. We need something out wide, we're so shit. It's become our new problem area after the 5 year horror that was the midfield. We've needed someone there for a good 3/4 years, but every time we sign someone they either get robbed and bugger off, are shit or get benched. We need an actual, consistent winger.

I thought the only times we looked remotely dangerous (which were few and far between) was when we got the ball into the box from wide areas. BFS showed he can be an obvious threat while Martial and Rooney failed to get on the end of some decent balls in from the likes of Young. Mata was, once again, anonymous and I struggle to see beyond this season how useful he actually is.

 

[Varun]

And I thought Barca's tiki-taka was tedious and boring. We must have bought the prototype version.

We wish we could play like them.

 

[sglowrider]

We wish we could play like them.

Unfortunately we don't even have Pep's version but some pre-historic prototype version.

I used to feel bad for a gooner friend of mine. The perpetual question was -- why don't they just bloody shoot?

Arsenal's looking like the fecking Harlem Globe trotters compared to us now.

 

[Varun]

Unfortunately we don't even have Pep's version but some pre-historic prototype version.

I used to feel bad for a gooner friend of mine. The perpetual question was -- why don't they just bloody shoot?

Arsenal's looking like the fecking Harlem Globe trotters compared to us now.

Yup. End of the day, we follow the club to be entertained, to enjoy those 90mins after a long week of work and shit. Unfortunately, it isn't happening.

 

[Physiocrat]

Only saw the highlights on MOTD. Was Martial and Rooney effectively stuck out wide all game with Mata in the middle.

If so this is the most defensive way of playing 352. I could understand it in a diamond to protect the full backs from a counter but the extra CB should make up for this. It also leaves the front three isolated and in completely unintuitive positions

 

[prath92]

Yeah and he was shit, so what does that tell you then?

he was the only one that was trying to make somehing and went past players more than once. Shit is a gross exaggeration.

 

[Acole9]

First of all I was very surprised by the change in formation, but this must've been due to the injuries we have in defence because that was why we used it previously.

On to the match, I know Leicester have been on an excellent run of form but I am disappointed we only managed to get a draw. They were there for the taking, especially on set pieces which begs the question why didn't Fellaini play? Our best header of the ball surely this would've been the ideal game for him.

We are so toothless up front it's untrue, the only reason why this hadn't been noted before is because Martial was playing so well and getting us out of trouble but now his goals have dried up I don't know where they're going to come from.

Realistically if we're to sign anyone in January it'll only be one player and for me it has to be a pacey attacking player that can also chip in with a few goals because we desperately need it.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

First of all I was very surprised by the change in formation, but this must've been due to the injuries we have in defence because that was why we used it previously.

On to the match, I know Leicester have been on an excellent run of form but I am disappointed we only managed to get a draw. They were there for the taking, especially on set pieces which begs the question why didn't Fellaini play? Our best header of the ball surely this would've been the ideal game for him.

We are so toothless up front it's untrue, the only reason why this hadn't been noted before is because Martial was playing so well and getting us out of trouble but now his goals have dried up I don't know where they're going to come from.

Realistically if we're to sign anyone in January it'll only be one player and for me it has to be a pacey attacking player that can also chip in with a few goals because we desperately need it.

The fact that he didn't even bring Fellaini on when in a way would have suited the game, says maybe he has lost trust in him as well. Pereira along with Fellaini and Memphis as subs would have caused Leicester loads of problems.

 

[Crossie]

Expected goal models are usually more accurate in reflecting the quality of chances and to what extent teams capitalized on them - or didn't.

This is Michael Caley's model applied to yesterday's match.

 

[Yorkeontop]

Rooney getting subbed was a major positive.

We should have won that though, suffocated them in the second half but our play in the final third was poor.

Nothing new, but the realisation that Wayne wasn't going to be subbed (most probably) if he didn't pick up the knock leaves me feeling stone cold. It truly bothers me and I'm a Rooney apologist half the time. He's not the only problem but damn!

 

[RedDevil@84]

I am more or less beginning to accept that this is the best level LvG's team could make in the league with the existing players. LvG's tactics along with the players compatibility to the tactics or lack thereof can only produce this level of football.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yeah and he was shit, so what does that tell you then?

He wasn't.

Surprised at reactions here. We aren't great going forwards, that's nothing new. But it was a decent performance. Conceded a bad goal, controlled the game, got the equaliser and that little bit of quality lacking in the final third was basically the difference between 1-1 and 3-1. Our midfield was very fluent IMO, Schweinsteiger was quality. Young and Martial did well out of the attackers but we just didn't have enough in attack.

 

[The United Irishman]

He wasn't.

Surprised at reactions here. We aren't great going forwards, that's nothing new. But it was a decent performance. Conceded a bad goal, controlled the game, got the equaliser and that little bit of quality lacking in the final third was basically the difference between 1-1 and 3-1. Our midfield was very fluent IMO, Schweinsteiger was quality. Young and Martial did well out of the attackers but we just didn't have enough in attack.

Oh come on it was more of the same, if you're going to have a possession based football side you should at least be good at it, do you not think? I'm not of a fan of it myself, I hated pep's Barca side (as good as they were) I found them boring to watch just as I've found Bayern and now us, the other sides execute it well but we are terrible at it! It's horrible to watch and as I've said before it's making really good players look bad as their artistic license has been removed by LVG. I seen Martial make one good move in the box, every other time he lost the ball or had no where to go!

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Oh come on it was more of the same, if you're going to have a possession based football side you should at least be good at it, do you not think? I'm not of a fan of it myself, I hated pep's Barca side (as good as they were) I found them boring to watch just as I've found Bayern and now us, the other sides execute it well but we are terrible at it! It's horrible to watch and as I've said before it's making really good players look bad as their artistic license has been removed by LVG. I seen Martial make one good move in the box, every other time he lost the ball or had no where to go!

We are good at it. We keep the ball very well. The difference between us and those teams is that we have far worse attackers. Who are these really good players losing their artistic license? This problem seems to be overrated here. The less licence rooney gets the better it is. Mata was average under moyes and hasn't been at his chelsea peak for years now. He's actually gotten better under lvg barring this latest blip of late. Is he curbing the incredible artistic license of ashley young? Or is it memphis who is clearly adjusting to the premier league?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

And there might as well be shackles to some minor extent but certainly not how the caf overstates it to be the case. All this "can't take risks, cant express" stuff is a tad excessive. Possession football is inherently less direct and focused on ball retention. And I've said that our tempo can and should be quicker. But really good players made to look average? Nah.

 

[tom33]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the reason we struggle to create chances is that we have so little movement off the ball. Effective attacking teams (Barcelona, Bayern, City and Arsenal (at times)) all pass the ball and then look to move into space to offer a return pass. We play a pass, whether forwards or sideways or wherever and then act like the job is done.

 

[sunama]

Why three at the back! Why why why!

Louie, sort this crap out now.

3 at the back and 5 in the middle provides defensive stability.
This was brought in immediately after the 5-3 thrashing last year, at the hands of LCFC.
LVG was fully aware of Vardy, so decided to opt for an ultra defensive 352 system, again.
The other issue is that injuries have currently ravaged our squad, so 352 allows us to play with fewer defenders.

Without 352, maybe we'd have conceded more.

 

[Speak]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the reason we struggle to create chances is that we have so little movement off the ball. Effective attacking teams (Barcelona, Bayern, City and Arsenal (at times)) all pass the ball and then look to move into space to offer a return pass. We play a pass, whether forwards or sideways or wherever and then act like the job is done.

I really have to disagree with you that it's the reason, or even the main reason.

For me Bayern, Barcelona, and City and Arsenal (to a lesser extent) have players who can receive the ball under pressure, turn their man and carry the dribble the ball towards goal, or at least keep hold of the ball. They create better angles on the ball because of this. Bayern have Thiago, Robben, Costa, Lewandowski who will all take the pass at any speed, height, angle... and control it, turn with it, or shield it. Same for Barcelona.

Meanwhile, this United team has barely one player who's great at it. So what happens is they don't want to receive the ball in tight spots, and they don't pass to each other in tight spots.

Movement alone can't carve teams open. At some point the players need to get their foot on the ball and take opposition players out of the game, and create situations where runners are encouraged to come forward. We see Silva do it all the time. Get the ball under pressure, turn, hold it, and wait for the full back to gallop forward. It was Silva's use of the ball - not Zabaleta's run - that played the biggest role in creating that chance.

Barcelona players aren't just making better runs. They're making runs that require higher levels of technique. It's no good having Mata, Memphis and Rooney running into the exact places Messi, Neymar and Suarez do, because even if they making those exact same runs, they aren't going to have the technique/composure, strength... to control the intricate passes Barcelona make constantly.

Higher levels of player are needed in order for a possession game at the level of Bayern and Barcelona.

 

[Spock]

3 at the back and 5 in the middle provides defensive stability.
This was brought in immediately after the 5-3 thrashing last year, at the hands of LCFC.
LVG was fully aware of Vardy, so decided to opt for an ultra defensive 352 system, again.
The other issue is that injuries have currently ravaged our squad, so 352 allows us to play with fewer defenders.

Without 352, maybe we'd have conceded more.

I agree, that was the thinking behind the 352 v Leicester City. Spot on.

But then Louis idiotically sends his three CBs forward on a corner kick, opening the door for the counter which was the only way they were ever going to score against us. Blind taking the corner kick, fair enough. Smalling forward...why? He's a big CB looking for the header, of course, but he's not known as a prolific scorer for a CB and the danger we create for ourselves on the counter vastly outweighs the chances of us scoring on the corner kick. I'm not sure exactly where McNair was but he was nowhere near the play at the end when Fuchs sent the final ball to Vardy. All we had back were Darmian and Young. Poor tactical design.

We did score on a corner kick, but it was Schweinsteiger not Smalling. Against a club which can beat you on the counter it would be a really good idea to keep Smalling back.

 

[prath92]

I agree, that was the thinking behind the 352 v Leicester City. Spot on.

But then Louis idiotically sends his three CBs forward on a corner kick, opening the door for the counter which was the only way they were ever going to score against us. Blind taking the corner kick, fair enough. Smalling forward...why? He's a big CB looking for the header, of course, but he's not known as a prolific scorer for a CB and the danger we create for ourselves on the counter vastly outweighs the chances of us scoring on the corner kick. I'm not sure exactly where McNair was but he was nowhere near the play at the end when Fuchs sent the final ball to Vardy. All we had back were Darmian and Young. Poor tactical design.

We did score on a corner kick, but it was Schweinsteiger not Smalling. Against a club which can beat you on the counter it would be a really good idea to keep Smalling back.

Actually he is. Last season he scored 4. He scored against Wolfsburg this season too. Against Watford and City he had the best chances probably from set pieces. The guy is a Vidic like threat

 

[tom33]

I really have to disagree with you that it's the reason, or even the main reason.

For me Bayern, Barcelona, and City and Arsenal (to a lesser extent) have players who can receive the ball under pressure, turn their man and carry the dribble the ball towards goal, or at least keep hold of the ball. They create better angles on the ball because of this. Bayern have Thiago, Robben, Costa, Lewandowski who will all take the pass at any speed, height, angle... and control it, turn with it, or shield it. Same for Barcelona.

Meanwhile, this United team has barely one player who's great at it. So what happens is they don't want to receive the ball in tight spots, and they don't pass to each other in tight spots.

Movement alone can't carve teams open. At some point the players need to get their foot on the ball and take opposition players out of the game, and create situations where runners are encouraged to come forward. We see Silva do it all the time. Get the ball under pressure, turn, hold it, and wait for the full back to gallop forward. It was Silva's use of the ball - not Zabaleta's run - that played the biggest role in creating that chance.

Barcelona players aren't just making better runs. They're making runs that require higher levels of technique. It's no good having Mata, Memphis and Rooney running into the exact places Messi, Neymar and Suarez do, because even if they making those exact same runs, they aren't going to have the technique/composure, strength... to control the intricate passes Barcelona make constantly.

Higher levels of player are needed in order for a possession game at the level of Bayern and Barcelona.

I agree to some extent. Ability on the ball under pressure is perhaps the difference between the elite teams and the next tier. But, in an attacking sense at least, we're not even in that next tier yet. If you watch the PSV game, they looked so much more dangerous than us because their movement was better, even though their quality on the ball was lower.

 

[gerdm07]

Again we struggled to break down a team that sat every man behind the ball and had shrunk their pitch to stifle us. Our players obviously instructed not to shoot outside the box.

Leicester are an amazing team to behold and explain perfectly why English football is falling behind. They're terrible technically, but by being overly physical, running alot, and running fast, you can get to the top of the league.

Can't agree. I saw some very nice technical play from lfc. I saw some very nice technical skill in keeping posession from us.

 

[Speak]

I agree to some extent. Ability on the ball under pressure is perhaps the difference between the elite teams and the next tier. But, in an attacking sense at least, we're not even in that next tier yet. If you watch the PSV game, they looked so much more dangerous than us because their movement was better, even though their quality on the ball was lower.

PSV counter-attacked. And counter-attacking requires less technique than possession football. It also requires less intelligent movement, because there's more space to run into.

You can't move like a counter-attacking team if you're playing possession football. Which is why it's technique and composure on the ball that are most important. These are the things that create situations for runs, because otherwise there's a lack of space to run into.

 

[tom33]

PSV counter-attacked. And counter-attacking requires less technique than possession football. It also requires less intelligent movement, because there's more space to run into.

It wasn't just the counter-attacking though. Second half there was a period where they had us under consistent pressure in our own half. They still looked dangerous, because their movement was better. Leicester made a chance in the first half (for Okazaki maybe?) after a couple of one-twos, which is the type of thing we need.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Backward passes and possesion are not the issue imo, it's the time each player spends dwelling on the ball. I mean, tiki-taka isn't just about the possession, it's about one-touch passing, two touches at most. It is absolutely pointless if everybody keeps the ball for ten seconds before passing it, like our players do. It gives the opposition all the time in the world to regroup.

Exactly. But it doesn't have to be all one touch, there are not enough players who have the touch for that. But they all should know where to move before the other player recieves the ball. It's in the head, they even don't have to make a lot of runs, they should move a few yards, to get the angles right for the one who recieves the ball so he can pass immediately to one of them. Schweinsteiger has done his bit of dwelling on the ball, but it's the ones he should pass to who do the initial dwelling.

 

[dead joe]

Exactly. But it doesn't have to be all one touch, there are not enough players who have the touch for that. But they all should know where to move before the other player recieves the ball. It's in the head, they even don't have to make a lot of runs, they should move a few yards, to get the angles right for the one who recieves the ball so he can pass immediately to one of them. Schweinsteiger has done his bit of dwelling on the ball, but it's the ones he should pass to who do the initial dwelling.

You're right, the lack of movement upfront is forcing the ball carrier to dwell on it, as there are very few openings or solutions. Like i said in another thread, it's almost as if our forwards are man-marking their defenders, not the other way around.

 

[SalfordRed1960]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the reason we struggle to create chances is that we have so little movement off the ball. Effective attacking teams (Barcelona, Bayern, City and Arsenal (at times)) all pass the ball and then look to move into space to offer a return pass. We play a pass, whether forwards or sideways or wherever and then act like the job is done.

This.

 

[dirkey]

He wasn't.

Surprised at reactions here. We aren't great going forwards, that's nothing new. But it was a decent performance. Conceded a bad goal, controlled the game, got the equaliser and that little bit of quality lacking in the final third was basically the difference between 1-1 and 3-1. Our midfield was very fluent IMO, Schweinsteiger was quality. Young and Martial did well out of the attackers but we just didn't have enough in attack.

I hate seeing people mention this with regard to United. Bad enough Louis spouts it, but now fans buying it. Holding onto the ball for longer than the opposition really doesn't mean you controlled the game. It means the opposition has the intelligence to sit back and allow you the ball, because they know you really don't have the creativity to break them down. A bit more guile themselves and Leicester would have won the game, as they had better chances than we did. Can't remember who it was, but when they were breaking, lad picked out 1 guy at edge of our box when he should have given it to Vardy who was behind him. Either way, the lad with the ball probably should have scored but hit a weak shot straight at De Gea. Our "control" of the game is a mere illusion. We're giving up very good chances every week. We're just lucky we've such a freak of a keeper.

 

[Spock]

Actually he is. Last season he scored 4. He scored against Wolfsburg this season too. Against Watford and City he had the best chances probably from set pieces. The guy is a Vidic like threat

Smalling scored 4 goals last season?

I recall this season's goal, fantastic stuff.

I retract my point in part. Still, leaving our back line exposed as we did against an effective counterattacking side was not sensible. At least leave on CB back, either Blind or Smalling. But leaving Young and Darmian to defend against Vardy invited danger.