croadyman
Full Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2018
- Messages
- 39,309
Sack Amorim, sell Amad.
Clearly a Wummer, also completely agree with others who say we are now those game raisers we used to hate facing in our pomp
Sack Amorim, sell Amad.
Pretty much.
Estupinian, their keeper, Pedro, Minteh, Mitoma, Welbeck all start for us. Baleba is in with a shout too. They probably make half of what our players do too.
Years of mismanagement has led us to this.
Game wasn’t completely one sided. So had the ref sent the Brighton off just before 13 minutes and not allowed them to constantly time waste, as in done his job, I’d say we’d have been looking at a different result.talking about the refs won't change the fact that we have a set of shit players, who not only lack the quality, but they also lack the work rate and desire to play and compete, even if the ref was giving us everything and denying the oppo everything, we would still lose this game 10 times out of 10.
so, let's stop this nonsense complaining about the ref, and just accept our players are quite shit.
Game wasn’t completely one sided. So had the ref sent the Brighton off just before 13 minutes and not allowed them to constantly time waste, as in done his job, I’d say we’d have been looking at a different result.
If you’re going to ignore constant errors by refs, that don’t seem to be across the board, nor consistent, then the players shouldn’t be blamed for getting it wrong either? As all factors add up to results, not the ones you wish to acknowledge.
Carry on the ignoring of factors. I’ll take it you expect a full rebuild and an entire new team to be brought it , only then would you take there’s some bias in refs that’s going unchallenged.Lame excuse, we deserve less than 26 points too
The moaning about refs on here is becoming excessive. This forum is resembling a certain scouse forum that used to be mocked relentlessly for their paranoid conspiracy nonsense.Game wasn’t completely one sided. So had the ref sent the Brighton off just before 13 minutes and not allowed them to constantly time waste, as in done his job, I’d say we’d have been looking at a different result.
If you’re going to ignore constant errors by refs, that don’t seem to be across the board, nor consistent, then the players shouldn’t be blamed for getting it wrong either? As all factors add up to results, not the ones you wish to acknowledge.
The moaning about refs on here is becoming excessive. This forum is resembling a certain scouse forum that used to be mocked relentlessly for their paranoid conspiracy nonsense.
If we need to rely on the opposition constantly having players sent off, or handing us penalties for us to have any chance if winning, then who gives a shit. We have bigger problems than crap refs
That tackle on Dalot was 100% a red card. No one is denying that there aren’t other factors. But people shouldn’t be disregarding a factor, then to lump it all onto the players.The moaning about refs on here is becoming excessive. This forum is resembling a certain scouse forum that used to be mocked relentlessly for their paranoid conspiracy nonsense.
If we need to rely on the opposition constantly having players sent off, or handing us penalties for us to have any chance if winning, then who gives a shit. We have bigger problems than crap refs
Ref wasn’t very helpful in this game, think we had another pen he missed, then there’s this tackle, which is 2 footed and dangerous.
Poor performance by the players, but our pens have to be an assignation attempts and our players get cards for anything, the our opponents get away with some shockers.
The ref didn't cause Onana's hawler, nor he made Maz and the entire backline lose their focus and allow Mitoma freely run to tee up Minteh, nor he was the reason that Ayari run through our midfield basically unchallenged until he passed to Minteh who then crossed unchallenged to Mitoma who just squeezed the ball in, none of that was on the refs, and none of our players not being able to create a chance to test the keeper was because the ref made dodgy calls, we still got the pen and the goal disallowed in our favor so the refs including VAR werent that bad, if we are in a title challenge or a top 4 challenge and some ref made bad calls that went against us I'll give you that, but our players are too shit for refs to impact the game, so what if we Minteh was sent off in min 13? We were down 1 nil, what makes think we would have turned it around? Brighton could have sat deep after that and not attempt to play from the back, we got the pen because they were too confident in their playing from the back that we managed to press them and get a pen from that, otherwise we didn't create shit.Game wasn’t completely one sided. So had the ref sent the Brighton off just before 13 minutes and not allowed them to constantly time waste, as in done his job, I’d say we’d have been looking at a different result.
If you’re going to ignore constant errors by refs, that don’t seem to be across the board, nor consistent, then the players shouldn’t be blamed for getting it wrong either? As all factors add up to results, not the ones you wish to acknowledge.
The moaning about refs on here is becoming excessive. This forum is resembling a certain scouse forum that used to be mocked relentlessly for their paranoid conspiracy nonsense.
If we need to rely on the opposition constantly having players sent off, or handing us penalties for us to have any chance if winning, then who gives a shit. We have bigger problems than crap refs
Well they should have thought about it before bringing him in, if they didn't, they are worse than Woody.With what money and in January?
Brighton are a great to understand that scope of our problems because they have everything we don’t. They have technically sound players all over the pitch, have been built with a vision in mind over years and physically they are really terrific. Watching our players struggle to keep up with them physically in particular really shows us up imo.
On that front, Ugarte - Bruno - Mainoo combo is too slow and only one of them has some real strength. Maguire and De Ligt have the same weakness in that neither has much pace. Martinez isn’t the most mobile or tall. Wingbacks are poor in every sense. Strikers offer nothing.
That’s one thing to get right in the summer. Technically good players but not physical slouches. We spent 80m on Antony who has no physicality to offer as well.
I really don't think it's a case of being game raisers.Clearly a Wummer, also completely agree with others who say we are now those game raisers we used to hate facing in our pomp
Didn't think tackles from behind were allowed nevermind two feet off the ground tackles.How the feck is that not a red card. fecking incompetent referees.
Totally agree with this. I’ve been thinking this since we opted against Mane and since then have gone for players like Sancho or Antony who offer limited pace or strength.Brighton are a great to understand that scope of our problems because they have everything we don’t. They have technically sound players all over the pitch, have been built with a vision in mind over years and physically they are really terrific. Watching our players struggle to keep up with them physically in particular really shows us up imo.
On that front, Ugarte - Bruno - Mainoo combo is too slow and only one of them has some real strength. Maguire and De Ligt have the same weakness in that neither has much pace. Martinez isn’t the most mobile or tall. Wingbacks are poor in every sense. Strikers offer nothing.
That’s one thing to get right in the summer. Technically good players but not physical slouches. We spent 80m on Antony who has no physicality to offer as well.
It's just that playing the bigger teams, and sitting in, passing sideways and trying to score from the odd chance created is easier. It suits these players.
It's a bit of both though, right? We're just too shit to overcome any kind of external hindrances placed on top of our internal onesAmazed to see so many people blaming thr referees. Loon in house. We are the issue, not external factors.
Every club feels harshly treated by referees. You're right that it impacts good teams less as they are able to win despite the odd poor decision etc. I just think moaning about the odd decision is a bit of an excuse and let's the players/club off the hook.It's a bit of both though, right? We're just too shit to overcome any kind of external hindrances placed on top of our internal ones
Who else do you see from their squad starting for us?I don't think we need to overcomplicate this.
Yes we are underperforming but Brighton have about 6 players that would start for us, including Welbeck.
Until that changes, we aren't going anywhere.
Estupinan would make a great LWB, Baleba would do wonders for your midfield, I think he has a better passing game than Ugarte but is just as good at breaking up play and protecting the ball, Poster mentions Welbeck (though I'm unsure about that one).Who else do you see from their squad starting for us?
I would love this to be the case, but while he had a good game then, I'm pretty certain he'd be a disaster long term.We do. He played and saved 2 penalties just a week ago.
Well it's a no brainer when the alternative throws it in his own net every other week.I would love this to be the case, but while he had a good game then, I'm pretty certain he'd be a disaster long term.
It's easy to say that but is Estupinian really better than Mazraoui or Dalot? Or significantly better at least?Pretty much.
Estupinian, their keeper, Pedro, Minteh, Mitoma, Welbeck all start for us. Baleba is in with a shout too. They probably make half of what our players do too.
Years of mismanagement has led us to this.
I'm not sure than any of the Brighton players are any better than ours. If they came to United, they'd face the same problems as our current players and would struggle. If someone like Mazraoui went to Brighton, he'd thrive. If the Antony of August 2022 went to Brighton/Bournemouth and was thriving now in a coherent strategy, you'd have people on here debating whether we should sign him.It's easy to say that but is Estupinian really better than Mazraoui or Dalot? Or significantly better at least?
Mitoma is talked up but has 8 goals and 7 assists in his last 50 PL appearances, so it's not clear that he's an upgrade on Garnacho or Amad. Amad has 6 goals and 6 assists this season in 20 games. Garnacho has 10 goals and 5 assists in his last 50 PL games and is much younger.
Minteh has 3 goals and 2 assists this season (1 goal, 1 assist yesterday)...again, are these players clear upgrades on what we have? I'm not sure...and we're talking about Brighton's best players here.
I still go back to our problems being tactical. If we set up next season in a 5-3-2 or a 5-2-3-1 low to middle block, and played counter attacking football, I think we'd coke 6th+...but what's the point in doing that, really?
Estupinan would make a great LWB, Baleba would do wonders for your midfield, I think he has a better passing game than Ugarte but is just as good at breaking up play and protecting the ball, Poster mentions Welbeck (though I'm unsure about that one).
Verbruggen would be an improvement on Onana when it comes to distribution, but maybe not for shot stopping (Onana has made some world class saves this season) and Solly March at right wing back would be an improvement on Dalot.
I agree 100% with the first two paragraphs. I don't agree that we are 'cursed', we have been about as badly run as any organisation can feasibly be run for a decade+ and are paying the price.I'm not sure than any of the Brighton players are any better than ours. If they came to United, they'd face the same problems as our current players and would struggle. If someone like Mazraoui went to Brighton, he'd thrive. If the Antony of August 2022 went to Brighton/Bournemouth and was thriving now in a coherent strategy, you'd have people on here debating whether we should sign him.
The issues go so far beyond the ability of individual players. We've had genuine world class (or at least potentially world class) players over the last 12 years who have all struggled to reach the top of their game.
I genuinely think the club is cursed. It's the place where hope and ambition go to die. Many want a complete rebuild but that doesn't solve anything. It just invites another load of unsuspecting players to be made scapegoats for a fanbase that thinks we have a god-given right to be challenging for the title.
People aren't offended, they're pointing out the differences in expectation / scrutiny that comes with playing for United, the differences in style and the difference in playing for a well-coached team vs one in chaos.Welbeck and the whole post is exaggerated of course but the point is, there's not much difference in quality between the two teams.
I don't understand why some people are offended.
People aren't offended, they're pointing out the differences in expectation / scrutiny that comes with playing for United, the differences in style and the difference in playing for a well-coached team vs one in chaos.
You responded to a poster who claimed Baleba was better than Ugarte. If we took Baleba tomorrow he would absolutely flounder. We talk about Ugarte being limited on the ball, he's levels above Baleba from the limited amount I have seen. Stick Ugarte in Brighton's midfield and they would see the difference.
I call this the "Morgan Schneiderlin effect". Decent player in solid system at 'mid' club completely out of his depth when asked to do more than just break up play and knock it sideways, with 76,000 howling at him and an opposition revelling in their big day out at OT, fighting like their lives depend on it
I don't disagree with your general point but the fact remains, and the point I keep making is, that our players are at least as good as the likes of Forest, Bournemouth, Brighton etc...but are currently completely and utterly lost as to what they're supposed to be doing on the pitch.Baleba isn't better than Ugarte, Baleba would feature heavily for us.
The point I am making is that, there isn't much difference in quality.
I agree with the well coached vs chaos. My point is that a lot of our players are mid-table players and shouldn't be playing for a top team. Losing to Brighton isn't that surprising.
Good post. I hadn’t realized that we’ve had 3 matches in 7 days. Definitely a factor. I saw quite a bit of effort, but gone are the days when we could stomp mid and lower table teams through sheer talent.People here are asking why is there no intensity? I've already said this before - fatigue is a major factor. 3 games in 7 days, where one of which was played with 10 men in a match that went to extra time, takes a huge toll in recovery and game focus. I already knew the Brighton game was going to be a more difficult one than Southampton simply because of the shorter rest period for players who already pretty exhausted. I was hoping we would win but that didn't happen. Brighton and Southampton were not hampered by the same issues and thus a lot fresher. I've noticed that some people are very dismissive when it comes to fatigue and recovery as a factor because the need to blame is very soothing and cathartic. Fatigue is a reality which we cannot deny. I'm not saying that there is no blame to allocate but temper that with these relevant factors.
This is not an excuse, but a factor used as context. Perhaps they should have done more to mitigate the situation with the fatigue and help with recovery time. There are definitely other issues here that resulted in the loss. However, I just feel this context is needed to be considered if people are going to wantonly hurl insults at the players, the manager and the system. The system works - it has been shown to be a positive aspect especially recently when the players were fresh, and it did show they were getting used to it pretty well. Perhaps fitness is an element that they need to look into further. We have had a setback and most here are already doom mongering to the extreme and slapping blame on everything. Were people expecting us to win every single game since the Arsenal one? Are we going to implode any time that happens? We've had setbacks and losses before, even during SAFs era and we've overcome. This not going back to the drawing board situation. This is just one game. This week was an anomaly in terms of the number of games in a week, reduced men in extra time, and shorter rest periods. Let's see what a regular week holds in the future and how the players respond where we can assess better and if the players really need to take accountability for anything. For now, I think and hope they will do better from this point on.
Peter Bankes