[marlowe78]

I also finally got to watch after being at work on Monday. 3 points at a tough grounds is always wonderful but I can't remember being as pissed off after actually winning a match as I was this week. I think as a team we were simply terrible. We created absolutely nothing and only won because of a tree-ripe gift and van Persie's fine skill on Rooney's free kick. We sucked, largely because our gameplan didn't mesh with the actual circumstances on the pitch.

We were clearly playing to van Gaal's possession strategy where the ball is circulated amongst the midfielders and backs to keep opponents chasing after the carriers and hopefully stretching them. There were a large number of times that Mata or Herrera were given space to push forward, as Southampton didn't really have numbers in the middle. But our MFs almost always played it back to begin cycling again. Every time this happened, Southampton would create traps and press our defenders. You obviously need to play it back at times, but we often seemed to be back passing for the sake of it and this creates needless pressure on our backline. It looked to me as if Southampton would have trouble stopping a fast counterattack if only we tried one, but we never did.

Besides the 3 points, the only positive I see from Monday is van Persie, who single-handedly got us over the finish line. I thought Mata was totally lacking in ambition (though he seemed to be carrying out instructions) and Herrera put us in several vulnerable positions. Rooney I thought should've played more centrally and wasn't involved enough. Rojo and Evans were both poor and Evans is still showing poor positional awareness. I wouldn't have been disappointed at all with a draw, all things considered.

I think we can manage with 3-5-2 if Smalling is the central player of the 3. When he went off injured, the back 3 didn't look anywhere as secure (not helped at all by Evans's first game in weeks) and we were having much more trouble playing it out from the back. Here's hoping we keep to 4, at least until Smalling returns.

 

[fishfingers15]

If both the full backs are unavailable, LvG is not going to play a 4 man defence. At least, that seems to be the idea. I like Rafael, but we need another specialist RB if we need to be able to play 4 man defense regularly.

 

[mazhar13]

I also finally got to watch after being at work on Monday. 3 points at a tough grounds is always wonderful but I can't remember being as pissed off after actually winning a match as I was this week. I think as a team we were simply terrible. We created absolutely nothing and only won because of a tree-ripe gift and van Persie's fine skill on Rooney's free kick. We sucked, largely because our gameplan didn't mesh with the actual circumstances on the pitch.

I felt the exact same way. This win wasn't satisfying in any way because our approach was that of a second-rate team (my exact words that I uttered whilst watching the match). All of our players bar Rooney, Herrera, and van Persie were all playing too negatively and safely, and this allowed Southampton to execute their pressing game perfectly (Mata improved in the second half but became negative again after we scored). There were many moments when we could have played the ball into space and ruin Southampton's shape, but no one from the deep wanted to play the ball into those areas other than Rojo (Carrick was too deep and pressed off by Pelle to do so whilst Evans wanted to play shorter, safer passes than what his teammates wanted). I think it also didn't help when we didn't have our central defender in the back 3 not push up and get more involved on the ball, but I think that was more down to van Gaal wanting him to stay back rather than play him more like a libero.

I believe van Gaal set us up like this so that Southampton couldn't exploit our lack of full backs in the side. Tadic is a dangerous player on the ball, and Long's movement can cause Young many problems. They also had Clyne and Bertrand, both of whom are good going forward, particularly Clyne. Without Rafael and Shaw, we needed protection for Valencia and Young, and it was all good until Smalling went off injured with a rusty Evans coming into his place.

We played too slowly and safely to get through Southampton as well. In the second half, we improved our passing and played at a somewhat quicker tempo, but we didn't do much going forward with our players frequently giving the ball to the wing backs for them to play the ball into the box rather than breaking down the opposition through the middle and using the width to stretch teams. Whilst our passing and tempo improved in the second half, our approach was still safe as we frequently gave the ball to Valencia and Young to play the ball into the box. Even when Herrera got more into the game in the second half and played Mata and Rooney into dangerous areas, we still couldn't create chances well enough as those two often opted to play the ball to the wing backs to create chances, both of whom didn't put in good balls into the box often enough.

In the end, I'm relieved we came through the match with 3 points. We just looked nervous throughout the match and wanted to get it done.

 

[carlosp]

Carrick was too deep

Carrick wasn't too deep. He was moved to central defence and Evans was moved to the right in McNair's place. LvG didn't like Evans playing as CB and he felt McNair was weak. Carrick was moved to provide stability.

 

[mazhar13]

Carrick wasn't too deep. He was moved to central defence and Evans was moved to the right in McNair's place. LvG didn't like Evans playing as CB and he felt McNair was weak. Carrick was moved to provide stability.

I know that. I would have preferred if he stepped up when we were on the ball, though. Off the ball, yeah, him being deep was fine and provided us defensive stability. However, we struggled to play the ball out with Carrick deep and Fellaini playing the deeper midfield role. IMO, Carrick should have played more like a libero on the ball rather than as a pure central defender.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

The reason why we are playing 3 at the back, is we have no Rafeal and shaw, playing 3 protects our unnatural wingbacks, and it's no coincidence we have looked allot tighter since we have protected Our wingbacks.

The system is not the problem, United's problem is? Injurys and we have no speed or acceleration from all of mata fellaini Herrera rooney and RVP. So the problem solver is adding more speed in our attack, and in the future VG has got to bring in a more dynamic CF To replace RVP, A better midfielder to replace Fellaini, and a quicker player to replace a mata, so it balances out a rooney di Maria with some dynamic Midfielders, and quicker players

So I would say, replacing one or 2 of our injury prone defenders, and adding more speed to our very one paced attack could help

I guess it was understandable that Van Gaal wanted to protect Young and Valencia, but in my opinion, it's made us anything but tighter. Although the teams are not as good, we played a back four with both, Valencia and Young against Hull and Stoke, respectively, and they looked fine. You then go back to early on in the season when we played Burnley (the team who, along with Villa, have scored the lowest amount of goals scored) and we were all over the place, and could arguably have conceded a couple of goals. We have never looked convincing defensively in a 352.

You say the system is not the problem, but again, although we played against a stronger team in Southampton, we looked a lot more balanced when we played diamond against Stoke and Hull.

I think when it comes to the 352, because we lack so many options off the ball, it forces us to go long, meaning we turnover possession. This happened against Southampton. Like Van Gaal said, the only chances Southampton created were when we lost the ball. In a diamond, because there's more options, I don't think this would've happened, and I'm surprised Van Gaal didn't see this.

I do agree that speed definitely would've helped, though, especially as it look like we set up on the counter, at times. We rode our luck against Asrenal, but we always had the counter threat of Di Maria. We didn't have that the other day, which is why I was surprised not to see Januzaj up top with RVP, with Rooney just behind them.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

I know that. I would have preferred if he stepped up when we were on the ball, though. Off the ball, yeah, him being deep was fine and provided us defensive stability. However, we struggled to play the ball out with Carrick deep and Fellaini playing the deeper midfield role. IMO, Carrick should have played more like a libero on the ball rather than as a pure central defender.

I can only think Carrick wasn't asked to play like a libero because instead of playing two centre midfielders ahead of our three centre backs, Van Gaal played with one holder (Fellaini) and two box to box midfielders (Mata and Herrera). Had we played with 2 centre midfielders and one attacking midfielders, I can imagine Carrick would have took up the position of a holding midfielder on the ball.

 

[mazhar13]

I can only think Carrick wasn't asked to play like a libero because instead of playing two centre midfielders ahead of our three centre backs, Van Gaal played with one holder (Fellaini) and two box to box midfielders (Mata and Herrera). Had we played with 2 centre midfielders and one attacking midfielders, I can imagine Carrick would have took up the position of a holding midfielder on the ball.

I would expect this to have been the case, but in both halves, we had 1 midfielder who would rarely drop back. For the majority of his time, Herrera was close to Rooney and van Persie. The same went for Fellaini who rarely dropped back in the first half until he was shifted back.

 

[iBoss]

If both the full backs are unavailable, LvG is not going to play a 4 man defence. At least, that seems to be the idea. I like Rafael, but we need another specialist RB if we need to be able to play 4 man defense regularly.

Didn't we play 4 back vs Hull with Young and Valencia at fullback? Or was that Stoke?

 

[LR7]

Feels like deja vu from when we played Southampton in Fergie's final season. Similar moaning in this thread:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/post-match-southampton-home.365641/

 

[fishfingers15]

Didn't we play 4 back vs Hull with Young and Valencia at fullback? Or was that Stoke?

You are right, we had a 4 man defense with Young and Valencia at fullbacks

But it could be also because both Stoke and Hull are limited unlike Liverpool and Southampton

 

[iBoss]

You are right, we had a 4 man defense with Young and Valencia at fullbacks

But it could be also because both Stoke and Hull are limited unlike Liverpool and Southampton

Yeah, and they were home games tbf.

 

[Oneunited26]

I guess it was understandable that Van Gaal wanted to protect Young and Valencia, but in my opinion, it's made us anything but tighter. Although the teams are not as good, we played a back four with both, Valencia and Young against Hull and Stoke, respectively, and they looked fine. You then go back to early on in the season when we played Burnley (the team who, along with Villa, have scored the lowest amount of goals scored) and we were all over the place, and could arguably have conceded a couple of goals. We have never looked convincing defensively in a 352.

You say the system is not the problem, but again, although we played against a stronger team in Southampton, we looked a lot more balanced when we played diamond against Stoke and Hull.

I think when it comes to the 352, because we lack so many options off the ball, it forces us to go long, meaning we turnover possession. This happened against Southampton. Like Van Gaal said, the only chances Southampton created were when we lost the ball. In a diamond, because there's more options, I don't think this would've happened, and I'm surprised Van Gaal didn't see this.

I do agree that speed definitely would've helped, though, especially as it look like we set up on the counter, at times. We rode our luck against Asrenal, but we always had the counter threat of Di Maria. We didn't have that the other day, which is why I was surprised not to see Januzaj up top with RVP, with Rooney just behind them.

I think speed is a huge part of the game, its more important than ever. I do think fellaini and mata need replacing, and I defiantly think we cannot go on with rooney and RVP in the future, rooney is getting older, and RVP is even older. I do not even think Janazaj would have made a difference, he is just not got that acceleration and we are lacking it without di maria. The other problem with 352, valencia and young cannot beat man and they have no acceleration in their play, so the system is relies on our wingbacks to give us the speed, they did neither.

So against southampton valencia young mata rooney RVP none of these guys can carry the ball with any kind of break neck speed, so its an insane result we actually beat southampton with no speed or acceleration in our play, we were so one paced against southampton it was not even funny. And this is making VG one hell of a manager he is winning games with the lack of speed in our play currently. I do think at old trafford we will be pretty strong

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

I think speed is a huge part of the game, its more important than ever. I do think fellaini and mata need replacing, and I defiantly think we cannot go on with rooney and RVP in the future, rooney is getting older, and RVP is even older. I do not even think Janazaj would have made a difference, he is just not got that acceleration and we are lacking it without di maria. The other problem with 352, valencia and young cannot beat man and they have no acceleration in their play, so the system is relies on our wingbacks to give us the speed, they did neither.

So against southampton valencia young mata rooney RVP none of these guys can carry the ball with any kind of break neck speed, so its an insane result we actually beat southampton with no speed or acceleration in our play, we were so one paced against southampton it was not even funny. And this is making VG one hell of a manager he is winning games with the lack of speed in our play currently. I do think at old trafford we will be pretty strong

I agree with what you say in regards to our wing backs, although I think speed is getting a bit overrated nowadays, though. Yes, it's important, but if you look at the game against Stoke and Hull, who did we have in our in our team with blistering pace in our midfield and attack? No one really. However, what we did have is speed of thought, and moved the ball very quickly, and the teams couldn't live with that. Again, I think this boils down to having so many options off the ball, and the constant interchanging of the players, in comparison to when we played with the 352, who give very little options going forward.

 

[sunama]

I am seeing posters write that we should be playing 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 or any other fangled formation.
The truth is that against Southampton, we couldnt hold onto the ball. Our passing was terrible (by LvG's standards).
No matter what formation we had played, we'd struggle if we cant make simple passes.
I felt that Rooney in particular was guilty of passing backwards every time and not prepared to take a chance by playing the ball forward.
Had we had about 70% possession (by making sure we passed correctly), then I assure you, we'd have sliced Southampton open easily. We'd have frustrated them and pulled them out of shape, then scored.
I'm not sure if it was the pitch or something else but the entire team was struggling to make clean passes. Even simple passes were going astray, which did surprise me.

 

[Sid234]

You are right, we had a 4 man defense with Young and Valencia at fullbacks

But it could be also because both Stoke and Hull are limited unlike Liverpool and Southampton

Soton use their wide players and fullbacks very well.. which is why I think LvG went with a back 3 so that we have atleast 2 CB's in the box to cover crosses while we have an extra defender covering our WBs.

I was actually happy to see how well Valencia and Young kept Clyne, Bertrand quiet while forcing Long and Mane to cut inside.. We successfully nullified their wideplayers but the lack of an extra midfielder meant we didnt have many short passing options to quickly get the ball to RvP/Rooney/Mata

 

[marlowe78]

Feels like deja vu from when we played Southampton in Fergie's final season. Similar moaning in this thread:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/post-match-southampton-home.365641/

Which is why we should've been much better prepared to deal with this. Even before Koeman was manager, Southampton would suffocate us by playing the strikers and midfielders high. I was nearly shitting myself when we were playing 3 in the back because the defenders kept getting spread apart and Soton had their attackers sitting right on the edges of those pockets. If their midfielders were able to weave a couple of good balls into those areas, we would've been sunk. I just can't see us using this formation against top clubs, we've already had problems with it against Arsenal and squads like City and Chelsea are much more clinical.

We talk about how Sir Alex kept getting results from bad performances but I don't recall us winning after playing this level of bad recently, except maybe a game a couple of years ago against Spurs. I understand that we are short of players but it's clear that unless you have the exact mix, using this formation isn't going to work in top-level PL.