Pogba: "We Should Attack, Attack, Attack!"

Cassidy said:
I don't here anyone mocking Martial fee these days, and with the addons it could be more.

Money these days in transfers means thats not the case, you think Fred isn't going to have to be improved/developed here?
Richarlison just cost Everton 50m

And even then when you buy a 50/60m players you still have to develop them so that they can go on to be a 100m player. Thats what tier 1 manager do.
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He has been mocked as hell when we got him and tbf, it was a ridiculous fee for a teenager at this time, can't blame them.

Actually I'm questioning the heavy investment in Fred who looks more of a Herrera upgrade than what we actually needed but leave that to other discussion.
 
el3mel said:
He has been mocked as hell when we got him and tbf, it was a ridiculous fee for a teenager at this time, can't blame them.

Actually I'm questioning the heavy investment in Fred who looks more of a Herrera upgrade than what we actually needed but leave that to other discussion.
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Yes many transfers were mocked. So was Rooneys price, so was Pogbas price, so have many players prices. Doesn't chnage the fact that at a tier 1 club you still as a tier 1 manager have responsibility to improve develop and get the best out of them.
 
Cassidy said:
Yes many transfers were mocked. So was Rooneys price, so was Pogbas price, so have many players prices. Doesn't chnage the fact that at a tier 1 club you still as a tier 1 manager have responsibility to improve develop and get the best out of them.
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Ok. Good luck finding a tier 1 manager who will do winning and developing.
 
el3mel said:
Ok. Good luck finding a tier 1 manager who will do winning and developing.
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Most of them are doing it already. You know players improving under many managers. The odd one out is the one at our club.
 
The fee of a player is only loosely linked to his actual level. The club he is playing for and the club that he is supposed to join are even more important. If you try to buy the same player from Monaco or Ajax the fees will be drastically different even if the player has the exact same level.
 
el3mel said:
You didn't but Ok. :)
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Of course I didn't second post in which I responded to you on.

Cassidy said:
Like I said they can spend money, but are you going to say that Pep didn't improve/develop players?

And Conte didn't improve any players and develop strategy to get the most of the players in the squad to win the title. Yes he kicked up a fuss after not being backed by the board but I didn't say they don't spend in my post did I?



Spending money doesn't mean you don't develop players or have strategies to get the most out of the squad you have.

Tier 1 manager both spend and improve players, thats what make them tier one, well the best ones anyway. Jose no longer does the improvement part, well at United anyway.
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el3mel said:
You didn't mention any names really.



Instead of jumping midway in the discussion, make some effort to read. I know it's hard but give it a try.
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You're having a bit of a mare here. Talking about the top managers not developing players or not being able to develop players simultaneous to winning big trophies. LOL I have heard it all now.
 
ForestRGoinUp said:
You're having a bit of a mare here. Talking about the top managers not developing players or not being able to develop players simultaneous to winning big trophies. LOL I have heard it all now.
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I understand you can't even have a constructed argument or an opinion so that's all you got. At least @Cassidy has a respected opinion.
 
Nowadays even future potential costs top money @el3mel , look at Dembele at Barca. Sterling was not worth 50M when City got him. And sure the fee for Martial was high at the time, but I remember him being a very important player for us on his debut season - in fact that's where his song comes. Why would we care about rival fans mocking our player fees anyways, that's weird.

Also developing and improving players is the job of the coach, no?
 
iluvurmummy said:
Nowadays even future potential costs top money @el3mel , look at Dembele at Barca. And sure the fee for Martial was high at the time, but I remember him being a very important player for us on his debut season - in fact that's where his song comes.

Also developing and improving players is the job of the coach, no?
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Not all the coaches at good at developing youth while at the same time not every coach is good at building a title winning side. There's no manager who ticks all the boxes right except Fergie. Each managers are better than others in certain aspects, and from the tier 1 managers currently present I don't see anyone interested in developing and staying a long term to build a legacy. The likes of Poch, Klopp and Jardim excel at this more.
 
el3mel said:
Not all the coaches at good at developing youth while at the same time not every coach is good at building a title winning side. There's no manager who ticks all the boxes right except Fergie. Each managers are better than others in certain aspects, and from the tier 1 managers currently present I don't see anyone interested in developing and staying a long term to build a legacy. The likes of Poch, Klopp and Jardim excel at this more.
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I think thats true.

But I also think that there is a difference between developing players (which all managers should be doing) at all levels and developing youth and building a long term legacy.

It's also interesting that with Pep the young players brought through at Barca is negated.

The point I was making really wasn't about youth players anyway.

It was about developing / coaching players and getting the best out of them they can be youth, experienced, inexperienced etc. Getting the best out of the players in your squad should be the minimum for any top tier manager. That doesn't mean all the players, but it should be most.

Its the reason Jose needs sacking
 
Cassidy said:
I think thats true.

But I also think that there is a difference between developing players (which all managers should be doing) at all levels and developing youth and building a long term legacy.

It's also interesting that with Pep the young players brought through at Barca is negated.

The point I was making really wasn't about youth players anyway.

It was about developing / coaching players and getting the best out of them they can be youth, experienced, inexperienced etc. Getting the best out of the players in your squad should be the minimum for any top tier manager. That doesn't mean all the players, but it should be most.

Its the reason Jose needs sacking
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With this point I don't disagree.
 
el3mel said:
Not all the coaches at good at developing youth while at the same time not every coach is good at building a title winning side. There's no manager who ticks all the boxes right except Fergie. Each managers are better than others in certain aspects, and from the tier 1 managers currently present I don't see anyone interested in developing and staying a long term to build a legacy. The likes of Poch, Klopp and Jardim excel at this more.
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Tbf probably every player under 25 is in a process of developing and coming in to their prime. If all a manager can do is organise established players in their prime (basically Jose) then I'd question their long-term suitability for our club (basically Jose isn't this anyway, and he hasnt/isn't winning anything in the short term either).
 
Cassidy said:
Like I said they can spend money, but are you going to say that Pep didn't improve/develop players?

And Conte didn't improve any players and develop strategy to get the most of the players in the squad to win the title. Yes he kicked up a fuss after not being backed by the board but I didn't say they don't spend in my post did I?



Spending money doesn't mean you don't develop players or have strategies to get the most out of the squad you have.

Tier 1 manager both spend and improve players, thats what make them tier one, well the best ones anyway. Jose no longer does the improvement part, well at United anyway.
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I’m not that convinced Conte did improve the players. He got a dead cat bounce out of them for 6 months because he wasn’t Jose, and the players revelled in that for a while, then it all went to shit again.

He’s essentially an Italian version of Jose.
 
redIndianDevil said:
Liverpool is only Klopp's second decent side he gets to manage, and he has to compete with moneybags like City, Chelsea and us and has got his teams to two CL finals. If he isn't tier 1, then Guardiola, Conte and Mourinho aren't too, seeing as neither of them won UCL for quite a bit of time.
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Klopp is 51 years old and Mourinho is 55. Now compare their trophies.
 
bosnian_red said:
I feel like there's an issue in the first place if Pogba saying that Manchester United should attack against Wolves is seen as a problem/anti Mourinho and worthy of him being stripped of captaincy...
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He also said that "but I am not the manager".

This translates to: "but I am not the idiot manager who does not want us to attack".

Beckham was sold by SAF for saying much less than that. You cannot undermine the manager. The manager is the boss, the captain of the ship, a player is just a sailor.
 
el3mel said:
Pretty sure only player Pep has improved in the City side he inherited was Sterling. The rest were already top players when he got them or were his signings that all costed +50m.

The type of managers you're talking about, I think the only who fits it is Fergie imo. He's the only tier 1 who could win league titles while introducing new blood in the squad. The rest for me have been cheque book managers. Mourinho is no different. No one would ever complement him of developing youth. He's complemented only for winning.
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Many of Peps players do not play so well outside of his tactics e.g Otamendi, Sane, so you can argue that he can make them better or get more out of them. With Jose its the opposite. Even Rashford looked good for England the other week.
 
Stacks said:
Many of Peps players do not play so well outside of his tactics (international) so you can argue that he can make them better or get more out of them. With Jose its the opposite. Even Rashford looked good for England the other week.
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Like whom ? I mean this only applies on Sterling. You can't say Jesus as he's not even starter for them.
 
el3mel said:
Not all the coaches at good at developing youth while at the same time not every coach is good at building a title winning side. There's no manager who ticks all the boxes right except Fergie. Each managers are better than others in certain aspects, and from the tier 1 managers currently present I don't see anyone interested in developing and staying a long term to build a legacy. The likes of Poch, Klopp and Jardim excel at this more.
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It wasn't just about developing youth, it was also about developing strategy or tactics that make the players play better than their individual quality. I feel Conte did that with the 3 4 3 as I don't believe Chelsea had the best individuals. Any Chairman can just spend lots of money and just choose the best players.
 
Stacks said:
Otamendi, Sane, Fernandinho, Silva is better for City under Pep than previous coach and spain, Delph,
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He bought 2 defenders to replace Otamendi already though. Sane wasn't even in Germany squad in WC to comment on and Fernandinho, well don't think he was that bad was he ? He's obviously a step down from the likes of Casemiro in Brazil but that's normal. He played to his own level.

Silva was always great for City and Spain under all their managers.
 
el3mel said:
He bought 2 defenders to replace Otamendi already though. Sane wasn't even in Germany squad in WC to comment on and Fernandinho, well don't think he was that bad was he ? He's obviously a step down from the likes of Casemiro in Brazil but that's normal. He played to his own level.

Silva was always great for City and Spain under all their managers.
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To counter this who has performed better outside of city?
 
RyRy11 said:
To counter this who has performed better outside of city?
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Why should the perform better than with Pep ? Just performing at their same level is good enough. No one said Pep isn't a great manager. He's definitely the best in the world now by a country mile.
 
el3mel said:
He bought 2 defenders to replace Otamendi already though. Sane wasn't even in Germany squad in WC to comment on and Fernandinho, well don't think he was that bad was he ? He's obviously a step down from the likes of Casemiro in Brazil but that's normal. He played to his own level.

Silva was always great for City and Spain under all their managers.
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Otamendi is manageable at City and plays 90 minutes every match. no one has replaced him. Sane not making the WC squad it the point. Silva has been rejunenated under Pep. In the WC he was a bit pointless.
 
Stacks said:
Otamendi is manageable at City and plays 90 minutes every match. no one has replaced him. Sane not making the WC squad it the point. Silva has been rejunenated under Pep. In the WC he was a bit pointless.
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I'll give you a pass on Otamendi but you can't comment on Sane because the German manager doesn't favor him imo. As for Silva, Spain were all completely destroyed by their manager getting sacked just prior the tournament. He was still always great for City and Spain, and was always one of their best player.
 
RedNed77 said:
I’m not that convinced Conte did improve the players. He got a dead cat bounce out of them for 6 months because he wasn’t Jose, and the players revelled in that for a while, then it all went to shit again.

He’s essentially an Italian version of Jose.
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No they started poorly they he came up with a system to extract the best from the players

He did have his issues, especially negative football.but when you end up replacing Costa with Morata and Matic with Bakayoko and Drinkwater expect problems. He also left Juve when they didnt back him.

Point is he got the best out of what he had you dont win the league the way they did with just a 6 month dead cat bounce
 
POF said:
If Pogba made those comments under Fergie, he wouldn't have played another minute until he apologised to the entire squad. The other players would have shunned him from the group. That is a high performance culture.

If you think Pogba's comments genuinely relate to him wanting to play attacking football you are incredibly naive. It's a clear power play.

I don't like Mourinho criticising the players in public and even moreso because he did it mainly to fringe players. Martial and Shaw have far more reason to have issues with it than Pogba.

For 18 months he never uttered a single modicum of criticism in Pogba's direction. The Spurs game at Wembley was the day the relationship changed. Pogba's effort that day was outrageous. That toxic relationship has been dragging the club down since.
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Pogba wouldn't make those comments under Fergie because Fergie would attack relentlessly against Wolves at home, instead of being outplayed by them and playing it safe after going 1-0 up

Didn't Madrid's problems also started when Mou choose to playing it safe after going 2-0 up early against Bayern and then proceed to lose on penalties? I remember reading it somewhere
 
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CA_vampire said:
He also said that "but I am not the manager".

This translates to: "but I am not the idiot manager who does not want us to attack".

Beckham was sold by SAF for saying much less than that. You cannot undermine the manager. The manager is the boss, the captain of the ship, a player is just a sailor.
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Beckham was sold because he kept skipping training to go shopping with Victoria. Even phoned in saying Brooklyn was sick then got photographed shopping.
 
el3mel said:
I'll give you a pass on Otamendi but you can't comment on Sane because the German manager doesn't favor him imo. As for Silva, Spain were all completely destroyed by their manager getting sacked just prior the tournament. He was still always great for City and Spain, and was always one of their best player.
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He's not in the German squad because he plays really bad most of the time for them, the change in the system clearly affect him, mind you he's still very young and he can still adapt to different manager in the future. The points still stands though, some players do play much better under Pep's system, whether it's good or bad I don't know, just that he has clear idea of how his team wants to play. The same cannot be said for Mourinho these days, I just don't understand how he wants the team to play
 
Fully Fledged said:
Beckham was sold because he kept skipping training to go shopping with Victoria. Even phoned in saying Brooklyn was sick then got photographed shopping.
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“My message would have been familiar to board members who knew me. The minute a Manchester United player thought he was bigger than the manager, he had to go. I used to say, 'The moment the manager loses his authority, you don't have a club. The players will be running it, and then you're in trouble.'”

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...ng-room-between-me-a-flying-boot-8897245.html
 
CA_vampire said:
“My message would have been familiar to board members who knew me. The minute a Manchester United player thought he was bigger than the manager, he had to go. I used to say, 'The moment the manager loses his authority, you don't have a club. The players will be running it, and then you're in trouble.'”

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...ng-room-between-me-a-flying-boot-8897245.html
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Yeah he was deciding when to turn up for training. That meant he was undermining the manager.
 
Fully Fledged said:
Yeah he was deciding when to turn up for training. That meant he was undermining the manager.
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David-Beckham-hair.jpg
 
POF said:
If Pogba made those comments under Fergie, he wouldn't have played another minute until he apologised to the entire squad. The other players would have shunned him from the group. That is a high performance culture.

If you think Pogba's comments genuinely relate to him wanting to play attacking football you are incredibly naive. It's a clear power play.

I don't like Mourinho criticising the players in public and even moreso because he did it mainly to fringe players. Martial and Shaw have far more reason to have issues with it than Pogba.

For 18 months he never uttered a single modicum of criticism in Pogba's direction. The Spurs game at Wembley was the day the relationship changed. Pogba's effort that day was outrageous. That toxic relationship has been dragging the club down since.
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If Pogba made those comments under Ferguson then everyone would think he lost his mind. We didn't parked the bus under SAF.
 
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