Pochettino | Agrees to be US National Team Coach

I wonder if they really dare firing him. He's not all of a sudden an incompetent manager, and they might actually have a hard time finding a good replacement given the number of clubs that will be looking. Also, the Chelsea job will continue to be toxic for a few years, as the transfers will be dictated by FFP rules rather than what the squad actually needs. Whether it's Pochettino or a new manager they will have limited impact on new acquisitions and most likely will have to work with what Chelsea already have.
 
Jeffthered said:
I actually think Poch' is a good manager, not quite sure how good yet, he needs to bring silverware to clubs... his time at PSG was not so great, but a really tough job there. But I can only conclude that he has already written off a good, good number of these Chelsea players... or he thinks a very short pre-season (due to Euro's..) will make all the difference with these players.

I can't see it though. They seem a very odd bunch of young men that Chelsea lot. They're all over the place, mentally it seems... they almost seem to 'want' to play as individuals. Ihave never seen anything like it. With their talent, they will win the odd game, probably spank a few teams and look great. But there isn't a team there and I wonder what Pochettino is thinking. Does he coach them? Speak to them?

He is regularly calling it out, he labelled them 'soft' after the waythey capitulated against a decent, but not a brilliant Arsenal team. And do you think the players care? Kai Havertz does not strike fear into proper defenders/ players! Bayern did a job on Arsenal with little fuss!!
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It's not just PSG, it's also the last couple of seasons with Spurs. Even the season where they reached the CL final, they lost 13 games in the league and were difficult to watch.
 
SilentWitness said:
What has Poch ever achieved in his career that makes you think he's a top manager?
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He has built teams on a limited budget that have a distinct style of play and are challenging. He has an attacking philosophy. He gives chances to youth players and develops them.

These all for me make him a top manager. You could argue regarding trophies, and finals and silverware, but if we judge by those lines then most managers will be below average.
 
fergiewherearethou said:
Both are massively underachieving whilst both clubs are having structural and organizational issues.
I am not positive about Utd unfortunately, I have absolutely no reason to. Especially if ETH stays.
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I understand your sentiments. Its hard to believe at this point. But i know changing manager is not at the top of our list right now. We should not go down the chelsea way even though some might say that we are already there. We need to retain some non performing players for their experience, get cut from posers and develop a positive mentality among the squad. We need to sign fit players, and develop a strong bond within the team. We need a playing identity. Sacking managers is at the bottom of our priority list.
 
adkb said:
He has built teams on a limited budget that have a distinct style of play and are challenging. He has an attacking philosophy. He gives chances to youth players and develops them.

These all for me make him a top manager. You could argue regarding trophies, and finals and silverware, but if we judge by those lines then most managers will be below average.
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He's looks a bit outdated to me these days. Few years ago I would say he was a really good manager but football is forever evolving and I think he's failed to adapt.
 
Both Chelsea and United are a great example of how simply spending good money after bad won’t fix your problems. Finance was never the issue for either club.
Both clubs have good managers but they have a lack of support and structure at their clubs and are being hung out to dry. Both will probably eventually be made the space goat, and nothing will be learned. Both clubs stupid owners will rinse and repeat.
 
adkb said:
He has built teams on a limited budget that have a distinct style of play and are challenging. He has an attacking philosophy. He gives chances to youth players and develops them.

These all for me make him a top manager. You could argue regarding trophies, and finals and silverware, but if we judge by those lines then most managers will be below average.
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That was relevant 5 years ago. It isn't relevant now in terms of limited budget, distinct style of play/challenging.
 
Rnd898 said:
"Put arteta there and he will look the same."

That right there is a lazy argument. Of course a manager like Arteta would struggle at first if put in Pochettino's shoes but that's because his playing style is very ambitious and demanding of his players so it's only natural it takes a while to fully implement it. With the likes of Arteta and Klopp the foundation for a highly successful game system was laid early on and despite some early struggles it was clear for everyone to see what they were trying to do but it just wasn't working because the players were not yet fully comfortable with the system and they also still needed a few key improvements from the transfer market to complete the build.

Pochettino on the other hand, what is he even trying to do? We've played 45 games this season and having watched all but maybe one or two of those I honestly have no idea what kind of playing style Poch is trying to build here. We're not solid at the back, the midfield is all over the place and the attack is overly reliant on moments of individual brilliance rather than team play. The squad is far from perfect and is severely lacking in experience but whichever way one wants to look at it, things shouldn't be this bad on this many levels after almost a full season under Poch.

I wouldn't even begrudge Pochfor the bad results if there were even small improvements to be seen in general team play because at the very least that would give some hope of things improving with more time, but terrible results, terrible performances and seeing the same mistakes week-in week-out puts Poch firmly in the fraud category for me.
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Unless Arteta wins the league with Arsenal though, he's not really any better than Pochettino was at Spurs.
 
adkb said:
I understand your sentiments. Its hard to believe at this point. But i know changing manager is not at the top of our list right now. We should not go down the chelsea way even though some might say that we are already there. We need to retain some non performing players for their experience, get cut from posers and develop a positive mentality among the squad. We need to sign fit players, and develop a strong bond within the team. We need a playing identity. Sacking managers is at the bottom of our priority list.
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Well the "Chelsea way" gave them 2 league titles and 1 CL in the past 10 years, during which time we haven't even sniffed any of those trophies. So...I will gladly take the Chelsea way right now, instead of what we've been doing.
Playing identity....positive mentality....etc are just words in the wind....the reality is that ETH had 2 years...and worryingly the 2nd was worse. It's time to go, there are plenty of better managers out there which we should try. Rinse and repeat until we get it right.
This is football right now...City hit the jackpot with Pep, Pool with Klopp and now maybe Arsenal....with Arteta...there are signs.
 
The question is if anyone could really be expected to do much better with that Chelsea squad. Not that it's lacking in individual quality, they just don't seem to have been composed as a thought-through collective, and is short on experience, leadership and confidence.
 
Chelsea really have many low IQs players and they don't play like a team at all
It's amazing this team scored 4 against United.
 
fallengt said:
Chelsea really have many low IQs players and they don't play like a team at all
It's amazing this team scored 4 against United.
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Hardly. Newport scored 2, and Coventry scored 3.

We are just as shit as they are. Pure luck is what separates us on the table. They were just more lucky on that particular occasion.
 
fallengt said:
Chelsea really have many low IQs players and they don't play like a team at all
It's amazing this team scored 4 against United.
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Getting a penalty anytime a player flops to the ground in the box will help with that.
 
They make the same mistakes as us -
1) Buying too many high value young players. By their very nature they are inconsistent and you never know how they will turn out. Ralph said get players at aged 24 that is on their second contract. Someone should listen.
2) Buying injured players - might be wrong but Fofana was injured before he arrived and so was Nkunku. Mount good example for us
3) Buying players because they look great for a season - Cucerella good example for Chelsea. Onana for us on the back of his champions league performance.
The only thing we do better than Chelsea is getting in great players that are past their best on huge contracts
 
Rnd898 said:
"Put arteta there and he will look the same."

That right there is a lazy argument. Of course a manager like Arteta would struggle at first if put in Pochettino's shoes but that's because his playing style is very ambitious and demanding of his players so it's only natural it takes a while to fully implement it. With the likes of Arteta and Klopp the foundation for a highly successful game system was laid early on and despite some early struggles it was clear for everyone to see what they were trying to do but it just wasn't working because the players were not yet fully comfortable with the system and they also still needed a few key improvements from the transfer market to complete the build.

Pochettino on the other hand, what is he even trying to do? We've played 45 games this season and having watched all but maybe one or two of those I honestly have no idea what kind of playing style Poch is trying to build here. We're not solid at the back, the midfield is all over the place and the attack is overly reliant on moments of individual brilliance rather than team play. The squad is far from perfect and is severely lacking in experience but whichever way one wants to look at it, things shouldn't be this bad on this many levels after almost a full season under Poch.

I wouldn't even begrudge Pochfor the bad results if there were even small improvements to be seen in general team play because at the very least that would give some hope of things improving with more time, but terrible results, terrible performances and seeing the same mistakes week-in week-out puts Poch firmly in the fraud category for me.
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This whole idea that arteta was building his philosophy from day one needs to die. His team was getting beaten with 30% possession on the ball. What they are doing now is nothing what they were doing back in 2020 or 2021 or even early 2022. They lost to city 5-0 with 15% possession and zero shots on target. They lost to chelsea 2-0 at home with 33% possession. He got time which no other manager at top clubs will get so credit to arsenal for sticking with him.

Poch eth and many others won't have that privilege. I am not saying poch is free from blame but the job he has is a real tough one.
 
Feel like I can go back in this thread and just quote what I type every other week. He can point at the unreal amount of injuries we've had and he would have somewhat of a point, but with the players at his disposal he has to do better still. The way we've gotten wins this season has been finding Palmer between the lines and see what he does. That's literally been the extent of our observable tactics this season. With competent managers you see patterns of play quickly. It took Conte a couple of games to figure out a back 5 and have Marcos Alonso and Victor Moses look like (and be) world class wing backs for a while. You saw third-man runs. You saw patterns in the build-up. What I see here is a guy switching centre back pairing after our first clean sheet in who knows how long, and having a guy with a hernia play box-to-box against the highest goal-scoring team in the league.

He can point to injuries and keep waffling about trusting the project, but there is nothing to suggest he deserves the trust that he's asking for. There have been too many braindead decisions in too short of a time and he needs to go.
 
EtH and Poch are in the same sinking boat.

Wonder how it would have played with the roles reversed?? EtH at Chelsea and Poch at United.
 
ColvaleGoa said:
EtH and Poch are in the same sinking boat.

Wonder how it would have played with the roles reversed?? EtH at Chelsea and Poch at United.
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Exactly the same because we're two peas of the same pod. Clubs with shit owners (jury out on our new ones obviously) , scatterbrain transfer policies and a deeply unpleasant dressing room that downs tools when they don't get their own way.
 
AshRK said:
This whole idea that arteta was building his philosophy from day one needs to die. His team was getting beaten with 30% possession on the ball. What they are doing now is nothing what they were doing back in 2020 or 2021 or even early 2022. They lost to city 5-0 with 15% possession and zero shots on target. They lost to chelsea 2-0 at home with 33% possession. He got time which no other manager at top clubs will get so credit to arsenal for sticking with him.

Poch eth and many others won't have that privilege. I am not saying poch is free from blame but the job he has is a real tough one.
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Early on Arteta was very pragmatic because he quickly realized Arsenal's squad was shite. The first thing Arteta did when he took over was try to solidify their defense and start building from there.

After a while they started going for a more adventurous approach, which in the beginning came with it's own problems and a few nasty results as well but let's not pretend they weren't already a pretty decent team in the 2021/22 season and they've just kept on improving since then. Arsenal did very well to stick by him despite the struggles around 2020-2021 but I for one hoped they'd sack him around that time because I saw some potential there and would have preferred they start from scratch again under a different manager.

But with Poch I'm seeing feck all. Like I said the defenders look like headless chickens, in midfield there are too often gaps big enough to land a fecking jumbo jet in and the attack is basically just Cole Palmer's individual moments of quality. For sure the job is a tough one but is it really tough enough to not even see glimpses of improvement in the team's structure and overall playing style after 10 months? I'd have a lot more patience for Poch if it looked like he was at least trying to figure out what's wrong and making small adjustments to see what could be done to improve things but we just keep seeing the same shite over and over again and have to rely on nothing but blind hope things will eventually get better. The only way I could see us improving under Pochettino is if the club get a handle on the injury crisis and start having our best players more consistently available but that would help any other manager do better with these players too, not just Poch.

That's not to say Poch is the only problem of course. Just like at United, the individuals above the manager deserve a lot of the blame for the team's shortcomings as well but personally I've come to believe 100% that Poch is not the right man to lead the team. Wasn't exactly a fan of his when he was first hired but somehow he's still managed to fall well short of my already diminished expectations.
 
CassiusClaymore said:
Exactly the same because we're two peas of the same pod. Clubs with shit owners (jury out on our new ones obviously) , scatterbrain transfer policies and a deeply unpleasant dressing room that downs tools when they don't get their own way.
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Couldn’t have put it any better
 
justsomebloke said:
The question is if anyone could really be expected to do much better with that Chelsea squad. Not that it's lacking in individual quality, they just don't seem to have been composed as a thought-through collective, and is short on experience, leadership and confidence.
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I’d say they have a better squad than us to be fair. There in the same boat as us. It’s about the coaching. Are they not getting the quality of coaching they need, they have got a young squad which will take time to gel and they’ll be inconsistent, win 6-0 one week then lose 5-0 the other week. I’d take palmer, enzo fernandez that RW they’ve got over quite a few of our players.
 
DJ_21 said:
I’d say they have a better squad than us to be fair. There in the same boat as us. It’s about the coaching. Are they not getting the quality of coaching they need, they have got a young squad which will take time to gel and they’ll be inconsistent, win 6-0 one week then lose 5-0 the other week. I’d take palmer, enzo fernandez that RW they’ve got over quite a few of our players.
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You're welcome to take Madueke if you ask me. The talent is there but to me he just comes across a very selfish and dare I say even toxic individual. Madueke seems exactly the kind of player who's happy to lose a game 3-2 if he's the one who got on the scoresheet but sulk after a win where he himself played badly. Not the kind of attitude any team wants or needs.

That said he's still reasonably young and could still grow into more of a team player eventually but he's definitely not there yet.
 
Rnd898 said:
Early on Arteta was very pragmatic because he quickly realized Arsenal's squad was shite. The first thing Arteta did when he took over was try to solidify their defense and start building from there.

After a while they started going for a more adventurous approach, which in the beginning came with it's own problems and a few nasty results as well but let's not pretend they weren't already a pretty decent team in the 2021/22 season and they've just kept on improving since then. Arsenal did very well to stick by him despite the struggles around 2020-2021 but I for one hoped they'd sack him around that time because I saw some potential there and would have preferred they start from scratch again under a different manager.

But with Poch I'm seeing feck all. Like I said the defenders look like headless chickens, in midfield there are too often gaps big enough to land a fecking jumbo jet in and the attack is basically just Cole Palmer's individual moments of quality. For sure the job is a tough one but is it really tough enough to not even see glimpses of improvement in the team's structure and overall playing style after 10 months? I'd have a lot more patience for Poch if it looked like he was at least trying to figure out what's wrong and making small adjustments to see what could be done to improve things but we just keep seeing the same shite over and over again and have to rely on nothing but blind hope things will eventually get better. The only way I could see us improving under Pochettino is if the club get a handle on the injury crisis and start having our best players more consistently available but that would help any other manager do better with these players too, not just Poch.

That's not to say Poch is the only problem of course. Just like at United, the individuals above the manager deserve a lot of the blame for the team's shortcomings as well but personally I've come to believe 100% that Poch is not the right man to lead the team. Wasn't exactly a fan of his when he was first hired but somehow he's still managed to fall well short of my already diminished expectations.
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That's what I am saying it took arteta 18 months before he can start implementing his tactics. He was working with some shit and was languishing in 16th in December 2020. No big club will tolerate that. Hence I said even arteta cannot make it work with this chelsea side right now.

I am not saying give Poch time but any manager would need some time to fix it.
 
Rnd898 said:
You're welcome to take Madueke if you ask me. The talent is there but to me he just comes across a very selfish and dare I say even toxic individual. Madueke seems exactly the kind of player who's happy to lose a game 3-2 if he's the one who got on the scoresheet but sulk after a win where he himself played badly. Not the kind of attitude any team wants or needs.

That said he's still reasonably young and could still grow into more of a team player eventually but he's definitely not there yet.
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I don’t watch you enough to know that. When I have watched you though he’s been decent. You’re right no team needs a player like that. We have a few players already like that.
 
AshRK said:
That's what I am saying it took arteta 18 months before he can start implementing his tactics. He was working with some shit and was languishing in 16th in December 2020. No big club will tolerate that. Hence I said even arteta cannot make it work with this chelsea side right now.

I am not saying give Poch time but any manager would need some time to fix it.
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Do they though? I suppose that would depend on what qualifies as 'fixing it'. Are trophies or a CL qualification needed or is it considered fixed to just be less shit?

I'm not expecting miracles overnight if a new manager does come in, but at the very least I'm expecting to see a clear structure and some patterns relatively early on and keep building further from there. Not every manager needs to be allowed a lengthy period of total mediocrity before they start to show any visible improvement.

Take Unai Emery at Aston Villa or Xabi Alonso at Leverkusen. Both took over from their predecessors mid-season with both clubs flirting with the relegation zone and immediately turned things around for the remainder of the season, only to be even better the following year. Also when Tuchel took over at Chelsea following Lampard's sacking, you could see a whole new game system being implemented the very next day after just one training session with the team and that improvement eventually landed us the UCL and a top4 place whereas a midtable finish seemed all but certain under Lampard. Those three impressive feats were all done with no pre-season and very little time to make changes, yet they all still managed admirably well.

I think it will absolutely take this team a minimum couple of years to challenge for anything meaningful even if we do get the next managerial recruitement right but I don't think expecting to see slight improvements here or there even early on is too much to ask.
 
autopilot said:
It took Conte a couple of games to figure out a back 5 and have [Irrelevant point] and Victor Moses look like (and be) world class wing backs for a while.
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Ironic that in this context, it was a relevant point to name that LB. The caf admins could really do with limiting this censorship of his name to the Greenwood thread only.
 
Plant0x84 said:
Both Chelsea and United are a great example of how simply spending good money after bad won’t fix your problems. Finance was never the issue for either club.
Both clubs have good managers but they have a lack of support and structure at their clubs and are being hung out to dry. Both will probably eventually be made the space goat, and nothing will be learned. Both clubs stupid owners will rinse and repeat.
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You're still defending Ten Hag? Why don't people get it? It's not just lack of success but no structure or system in the team. We concede more shots than anyone else and are very very lucky to be even 7th. This is down to the manager 100%. Everyone and their dog has called out suicide ball being played by Man Utd. I don't care much for Pocchetino or Chelsea. They may as well get relegated, 0 fecks given.
 
DJ_21 said:
I’d say they have a better squad than us to be fair. There in the same boat as us. It’s about the coaching. Are they not getting the quality of coaching they need, they have got a young squad which will take time to gel and they’ll be inconsistent, win 6-0 one week then lose 5-0 the other week. I’d take palmer, enzo fernandez that RW they’ve got over quite a few of our players.
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Individually, yes. But not as a group. And I don't think it's really so simple that with good coaching, a group of good individuals become a good team. It's not built right, there are far too many inexperienced players being asked to deliver more than they're ready to do, and a fairly apparent lack of leadership.
 
adkb said:
He has built teams on a limited budget that have a distinct style of play and are challenging. He has an attacking philosophy. He gives chances to youth players and develops them.
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I feel all of this was true in an era where Pep's philosophies were not so well known in England and before German style high intensity counter pressing even really developed. He was this interesting new coach who was getting players to run hard and win the ball back quickly, what a novel idea!

Now every modern coach focuses on build up patterns and counter pressing and Poch is now a a bit of a tactical dinosaur who failed to adapt to the times. He's more Ancelotti than De Zerbi if that makes sense.
 
Teja said:
I feel all of this was true in an era where Pep's philosophies were not so well known in England and before German style high intensity counter pressing even really developed. He was this interesting new coach who was getting players to run hard and win the ball back quickly, what a novel idea!

Now every modern coach focuses on build up patterns and counter pressing and Poch is now a a bit of a tactical dinosaur who failed to adapt to the times. He's more Ancelotti than De Zerbi if that makes sense.
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Spurs with Pochettino built their success on counter pressing and having for several years the deepest(in the opposition half) or one of the deepest turnover line in the Premier League, that's how they would create easy chances. The thing is the majority of teams employing that approach aren't successful, it allows teams with lesser talent to bridge part of the gap but it's generally not enough to win at the highest level.

And he has nothing to do with Ancelotti. Pochettino starts games and generally seasons with one plan and he has no alternative. He is also a subpar man-manager, he is galvanizing no one and isn't going to push anyone to win a cup or league out of superior desire.
 
DJ_21 said:
Maybe his spell at PSG ruined him a bit.
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He was subpar during his last year with Spurs, it is with Spurs that he stated that trophies are for egos. PSG did nothing to him outside of being a continuation of his loser mentality.
 
JPRouve said:
Spurs with Pochettino built their success on counter pressing and having for several years the deepest(in the opposition half) or one of the deepest turnover line in the Premier League,
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Yes this is my point - he did this at a time when high pressing was not very well known so any basic high pressing approach would pay dividends. But now it became almost a science and he never evolved. His sides don't really force turn overs or dominate possession anymore. You don't really see the robotic patterns of play you see with guys like City / Brighton in his sides.
 
DJ_21 said:
Maybe his spell at PSG ruined him a bit.
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You could say both decisions: to go PSG and then Chelsea were wrong for a type of manager Poch is. Though they aren't great choices for any kind of manager probably.
 
Interesting to hear the same journos on the back pages show condemning Erik say they believe Pochettino will turn it around
 
croadyman said:
Interesting to hear the same journos on the back pages show condemning Erik say they believe Pochettino will turn it around
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This is what really annoys me. Everyone shows hate towards us and we get slammed left right and centre, while other teams get praised even when there worse than us. I bet much won’t get said about Liverpool bottling it.
 
I don't think Chelsea's squad is that bad and I'm quite surprised about how their season has gone. But I think the biggest mistake Chelsea made was that when you spend a huge fee on a player like Enzo Fernandez who is technically very good on the ball but not the most agile of players out of possession, it will create a problem for a coach like Pochettino who isn't really a coach who places emphasis on build up play from the back and has built his previous reputation on playing a high pressing game by winning the ball high and creating high turnovers with his teams having the physicality and intensity to back that up.

It's mind boggling how they chose Pochettino after signing the players they did. The coach Chelsea should've appointed was someone who placed emphasis on deeper build up with aim of dominating the ball in possession with players like Enzo and Caicedo who was among the very best players in the league at keeping and progressing the ball against the opponent's press in confined spaces. How they signed those two players and paired them up with a coach like Pochettino is beyond stupid. Now it remains to be seen if Pochettino gets the time and also if he adapts to the players that were signed by the likes of Winstanley and Stewart.

Like I said a couple of years ago, Pochettino is a coach who arrived in the EPL at a time when there wasn't a big emphasis on playing a high pressing game and he along with Brendan Rodgers took advantage of a method of coaching which built up their reputation. But as the league evolved with more and more coaching talent arriving, Pochettino's influence and tactics got weaker imo.

Someone asked the question above about if the roles were reversed with ten Hag being Chelsea coach and Pochettino being United's and if there would be a difference. I say there would be because ten Hag would utilise the likes of Caicedo and Fernandez far better because if you give him the tools he has shown that he can coach a deeper build up phase far better than Pochettino who prefers the high pressing/high turnover method. Pochettino on the other hand may well have done better with the players he would've inherited at United but I very much doubt his methods would've got us close to challenging the likes of Klopp and Guardiola.

I feel if Chelsea are to make a change when it comes to the head coach, then the next chap has to be someone like a Michel (Girona) or Thiago Motta currently at Bologna. Both the aforementioned coaches would imo get the best out of the players Chelsea have bought due to their vision and philosophy.
 
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