Its nothing to do with shape. Whether 433 or 4231 people need to understand that. Liverpool also used a 4231 today. His general tactics are so garbage that it leaves one midfielder open. Its not the shape, but rather his use of the shape.
Playing with a midfield of 1 person
- Thread starter noodlehair
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We'll never be able to play a functional 4-3-3 with Bruno
I thought the 4-2-2-2 with split strikers/ a false 9 at the end of last season/ first couple of games of this was the way to go
just look at the positioning of our three mids in comparison to the other 3.....now wonder the middle was always wide open
As if it needed to be pointed out, we obviously played 2 midfielders as per normal with Bruno in an attacking area in front
salah pinned back dalot and gravenberch was never marked under pressure
Oh, I agree. If we're going for 4-3-3, it's most likely not with Bruno in the lineup.
You’re spot on with this. Yeah Casemiro played badly today, but unless he changes his tactics, whoever he plays there will fail.
That sounds like something Michael Owen would say.
Agree with the general point though.
Nah as we heard many times last season it's not how Ten Hag wants to play. He wants the defence to push up high and close that space and support the DM, but the defenders just ignore these instructions and sit deep.
What he needs is two experienced centre backs, accustomed to his style of play. Perhaps Dutch or former Ajax defenders who have played under him previously. Once he gets two players like that, this won't happen anymore.
What he needs is two experienced centre backs, accustomed to his style of play. Perhaps Dutch or former Ajax defenders who have played under him previously. Once he gets two players like that, this won't happen anymore.
We haven’t played it for 3 years though
Good thing we played 2 in midfield today then?
We have pressed high for 3 years. Maybe not the 4-2-4 system but always pressed high and incorrectly.
So like I said not 424 I agree with the pressing but actually our pressing was not the problem today
Ah but don't you see, it's not the tactics that are the problem but it is not signing that 1 player who can play as a lone central midfielder in the premier league. You don't understand the genius of these Dutch managers
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GWZxp0JW4AAbBn0?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
At 2-0 it's 4-4-2. Rashford was so far up the pitch he was defending for Liverpool.
At 2-0 it's 4-4-2. Rashford was so far up the pitch he was defending for Liverpool.
It’s always the problem. Individual mistakes sure but we will make it so easy for the other team to play cause we don’t have a nonexistent midfield cause we press high in a disjointed way.
If we stayed together and let their GK and centre backs have the ball I couldn’t give a shit. They are not going cause damage but when they bypass our entire midfield with just one pass they carve us open and midfielders can pick a pass and cause more damage.
Thats no really what happened today. We lost our shape after the 2 goals but we actually had a good block in the middle before that. Also they didn't score a single goal from our midfield being too open either
Our pressing has been awful for years. The only time it worked was 45 minutes under Ragnick v Palace at OT. Then the players decided it was too much effort
Ten Hag's tactics are high risk. Today, early on, we forced a lot of midfield turnovers by committing bodies to the press. It's high risk, high reward. If you get it right and you convert, you are in dream street. If you get it wrong though, it looks mad.
Being willing to risk the consequences of playing through the press isn't, for me, a net negative.
What concerns me about Ten Hag is three years in and we still aren't converting. We had a similar spell at the start of last season where we were winning the ball more than anyone in the opponents half. It was leading to nothing though.
We get the ball and so often just lose it through sloppiness or robotic decisions. Our players lack guile, belief and commitment to the approach. It's like they do half of it but fail at the moment of truth. If after three years Ten Hag can't fix that bit, will more time really make a huge difference?
Being willing to risk the consequences of playing through the press isn't, for me, a net negative.
What concerns me about Ten Hag is three years in and we still aren't converting. We had a similar spell at the start of last season where we were winning the ball more than anyone in the opponents half. It was leading to nothing though.
We get the ball and so often just lose it through sloppiness or robotic decisions. Our players lack guile, belief and commitment to the approach. It's like they do half of it but fail at the moment of truth. If after three years Ten Hag can't fix that bit, will more time really make a huge difference?
It's even more infuriating when every side is moving to a 325 attacking structure. I don't know what the 6th person is adding given we can't score for shit.
This is why I feel Ugarte will not make a huge difference, he's going to be hung out to dry by the set up.
Clearly doesn’t value any midfield solidity. I hoped for some kind of improvement this year but i guess the problems are foundational.
I’m losing patience with him.
I’m losing patience with him.
3-1-6, 3-2-5 & 2-3-5 build ups aren't exactly some kind of crazy ETH invention.
Giving the ball away so cheaply does make it look bad though, especially with how clinical Salah is
Giving the ball away so cheaply does make it look bad though, especially with how clinical Salah is
I do Wonder what the people who thought we played well against Fulham think now. This kamikaze midfield set up for build up and out of possession play is truly astonishing.
The only difference between the Fulham game and today was this was against a top opponent. Fulham won the ball back and had us outnumbered on numerous counters but kept wasting it. Signs were there in the Fulham game that if we kept doing that a beating was right round the corner. Lo and behold it took to the next home game for that beating to happen and every single goal was a result of that daft midfield set up.
The only difference between the Fulham game and today was this was against a top opponent. Fulham won the ball back and had us outnumbered on numerous counters but kept wasting it. Signs were there in the Fulham game that if we kept doing that a beating was right round the corner. Lo and behold it took to the next home game for that beating to happen and every single goal was a result of that daft midfield set up.
And kept sucking Dalot too far up front as well.
This surely from last season right? No way we go into a new season with no midfield...
I swear if I see Casemiro start for us again, I will not watch the game. Its so painful to watch the guy play one sloppy pass after anotehr los the ball in simple dribbles where hes just as slow as a tanker thinking hes got all the time in the world.
I wodner where are all these Fred haters, Casemiro already lost like three times more balls in dangerous positions then Fred and he only played third of the time here while winning half of the balls.
I wodner where are all these Fred haters, Casemiro already lost like three times more balls in dangerous positions then Fred and he only played third of the time here while winning half of the balls.
At some point, supporters have to start questioning why, for a decade, players have looked good before we signed then, arrived, played poorly, left, and look good again.
Once ot twice happens, not every player suits every club, but its constant. Every season.
Its a cultural problem, it has happened under multiple managers, and until that is fixed, we could have peak sir alex return, have the holy trinity and ronaldo at the front, stamm, rio, irwin and neville at the back and Edwin between the sticks, and we would still have our pants pulled down by decent teams.
Once ot twice happens, not every player suits every club, but its constant. Every season.
Its a cultural problem, it has happened under multiple managers, and until that is fixed, we could have peak sir alex return, have the holy trinity and ronaldo at the front, stamm, rio, irwin and neville at the back and Edwin between the sticks, and we would still have our pants pulled down by decent teams.
I think the answer is most likely more time isn't going to help and ETH has to recognise that a different approach is needed. Perhaps at time when we're desperate for a goal having this up our sleeve as a different approach could be good but as a base tactic it's clear that overall it's not reaping enough benefits and I can only imagine the frantic nature in the way we play can't be great for our players conditioning/susceptibility to injuries.
We should have stuck with Ole if we wanted to stick with the mid block counter attacking - ETH, just like whoever replaces him, has been brought in with a view to move us beyond that. It's starting to look like he isn't able to get us there, but going back to that kind of football is going backwards.
I thought we were making progress after the first 2 games. We didn’t concede many shots against Fulham or Brighton, and so the 25 against us every game must’ve been due to injuries. Or so I thought.
The wide open spaces were back today like mad. I know Casemiro had a shocker, and all 3 goals came from mistakes. But the fact that whenever they turned over possession they were immediately running at a backpedaling 2-3 defenders can’t be allowed to happen. It’s a tactically flawed idea.
The wide open spaces were back today like mad. I know Casemiro had a shocker, and all 3 goals came from mistakes. But the fact that whenever they turned over possession they were immediately running at a backpedaling 2-3 defenders can’t be allowed to happen. It’s a tactically flawed idea.
Partly because Mainoo and Casemiro switched sides, and Casemiro came off at half time so Mainoo was playing his role. But you can see that Mainoo was only a bit ahead of him on average and joining attacks from our midfield 2.
Surely not.... Right... Right?
Its partly because first they switched sides and secondly Casemiro came off after 45 mins so Mainoo was playing his role.
Its probably also because they found it slightly easier to link up with Bruno on that right side of the middle. Gravenberch was winning the ball a lot high up with 4 interceptions and 2 tackles. Mac Allister did win 6 tackles but was deeper, perhaps why we were encouraged to make a little ground down his side where he wasn't as far up the pitch.
We played a 2 man midfield with a 10 ahead. But there is an obvious agenda
Total shots
Liverpool 11 vs United 8
Brighton 14 vs United 11
Fulham 10 vs United 14
Granted it's clutching straws but there has been a tiny improvement since last season in the shots faced.
Pressure is on Ugarte to form one hell of a quick partnership with Mainoo. But for me 'partnership' is the important word, there needs to be 2 in the centre of midfield.
Liverpool 11 vs United 8
Brighton 14 vs United 11
Fulham 10 vs United 14
Granted it's clutching straws but there has been a tiny improvement since last season in the shots faced.
Pressure is on Ugarte to form one hell of a quick partnership with Mainoo. But for me 'partnership' is the important word, there needs to be 2 in the centre of midfield.
This was Ole's main tactic was to allow Rashford to cheat on defensive duties and keep him high up the pitch for transitions and runnning in behind the opposition defence.
Ten Hag hasn't really changed much on that front and we're over-reliant on that tactic. And Rashford isn't even effective at it anymore as he's lost a lot of pace and therefore his confidence to go along with it. Our passing for his runs is also shocking to be fair.
Liverpool clearly have better players and more understanding and organization in the formation, therefore going into it with the same formation and worse players was likely to see a bad result
4-3-3 gives us an extra body to help Mainoo and partner. An extra passing option for our buildup which was terrible, an extra body deep to make it tighter in the middle of the pitch and harder for the opposition to pick holes
We have 2 midfielders, its very obvious but only 1 that was playing decently. Casemiro obviously had a mare but he was in midfield with Mainoo.
The risk never yields any reward though, as you say.
There was one instance in the first half before they scored where Bruno and Zirkzee just completely messed up a quick transition and this is not an anomaly. It takes 10 of these incidents for us to score a single goal. I sometimes get the feeling the players actually get in each other's way, they're so confused by each other's presence that I can't help but wonder what they do in training.
On the goal we conceded. Casemiro gets the ball, plays an incredibly poor pass and Liverpool are in, our two full backs are on the halfway line and can't get back. There's no justification for playing this way I feel.
It's sad to say, but his plan just hasn't and won't work. Ole's plan didn't work and this one won't either.
We really should be trying to bring Rabiot in on a free, our options in midfield are ridiculous, what if Mainoo gets injured?
It was honestly batshit. I'm glad the majority finally seem to be seeing the light