Playing Fellaini ahead of Mata in the #10 role

[matherto]

Should be a sackable offense to be honest.

I'm not even a huge fan of Mata but basically forcing us to play long balls because he can't find another way of doing things is not befitting of a Manchester United manager.

 

[Rob Bowman]

Should be a sackable offense to be honest.

I'm not even a huge fan of Mata but basically forcing us to play long balls because he can't find another way of doing things is not befitting of a Manchester United manager.

Unfortunately I have to agree to some extent. Let me ezplain, I think Fellaini a good player and he has his strengths. In fact if chasing a game, I can definitely see many reasons for getting him forward.

My problem is starting the game with him lined up there. I mean if we didn't have any other options I could live with it, but we do...

What is so special about LVG philosophy if it is just long balls to Fellaini from the outset
?

 

[Cassidy]

Unfortunately I have to agree to some extent. Let me ezplain, I think Fellaini a good player and he has his strengths. In fact if chasing a game, I can definitely see many reasons for getting him forward.

My problem is starting the game with him lined up there. I mean if we didn't have any other options I could live with it, but we do...

What is so special about LVG philosophy if it is just long balls to Fellaini from the outset
?

Its obviously not what he wants to do, but what he feels is best with the current crop of players. Also he has only started like that a few times.

 

[NoLogo]

Well it's basically a Moyes tactic, isn't it? He was the one who first played Feallini as the AMC to play long balls to him and for one season it worked pretty well if I recall correctly. But yeah it's pretty annoying and we criticized Moyes heavily for his small team tactics but just maybe we suck so much that this is how we have to play, it's still awful to watch though and LvG will only get away with it for a prolonged time if he is successful with this approach.

 

[sullydnl]

Unfortunately I have to agree to some extent. Let me ezplain, I think Fellaini a good player and he has his strengths. In fact if chasing a game, I can definitely see many reasons for getting him forward.

My problem is starting the game with him lined up there. I mean if we didn't have any other options I could live with it, but we do...

What is so special about LVG philosophy if it is just long balls to Fellaini from the outset
?

Aye, we should start off trying to play better football at least and that means Fellaini on the bench imo.

 

[Silverman]

Tbh, it is completely against the United way. I would love to see Mata given a run of games.

 

[starman]

We dont even play the long ball game well. we try doing the possession game than when we have run out of ideas try cute balls chipped up to Fellaini, which sometimes does not even reach him.

Everton was built around high tempo getting the ball forward as fast as possible which was why he was so effective up front.

 

[Cheesy]

We dont even play the long ball game well. we try doing the possession game than when we have run out of ideas try cute balls chipped up to Fellaini, which sometimes does not even reach him.

Everton was built around high tempo getting the ball forward as fast as possible which was why he was so effective up front.

Yeah, this is a big point I feel. It's not that we're playing a long ball game as such, but more that we're using Fellaini as an outlet when our possession game isn't going anywhere and we want to just launch it forward.

 

[Rob Bowman]

Its obviously not what he wants to do, but what he feels is best with the current crop of players. Also he has only started like that a few times.

If your statement is true I am very worried. LvG is regarded as a world class manager and looking at our squad I see some talented players. This then is really the best he can come up with?

I mean Spurs, Southhampton, and Pool all spring to mind. I am not drooling over a whole lot of their rosters (sure some but not a lot) and yet I am more attracted to how they play the game then what we have come up with lately.

And before we start, I am not interested in some big debate on each of those clubs. My point is simply I see a manager with less resources then us making a decent, semi attractive, and most importantly a comeptitive team.

 

[Cassidy]

If your statement is true I am very worried. LvG is regarded as a world class manager and looking at our squad I see some talented players. This then is really the best he can come up with?

I mean Spurs, Southhampton, and Pool all spring to mind. I am not drooling over a whole lot of their rosters (sure some but not a lot) and yet I am more attracted to how they play the game then what we have come up with lately.

And before we start, I am not interested in some big debate on each of those clubs. My point is simply I see a manager with less resources then us making a decent, semi attractive, and most importantly a comeptitive team.

I agree with you tbh. I was just pointing out that its not how he wants to play.

 

[Walrus]

People here really seem to love to exaggerate when it comes to style of play. Reading these threads you would think that our players never play a pass <40 yards. I havent watched every game this season but I have watched most of them, and not once have I regarded it as a case of "hoof it up to Fellaini" except for odd stints when we are under heavy pressure or chasing a game.

I think a lot people here cant see the woods for the trees - you are so blinded by the fact that Fellaini is playing an attacking role that you ignore what we are actually doing, and just see what you think we must be doing because Fellaini is playing!

As for this "United way" tosh - the United Way relied on a 4-4-2 with wingers getting out wide and swinging in crosses, for the most part. And that is more or less how I see us playing at the moment, minus the 4-4-2 part.

 

[mazhar13]

Fellaini doesn't even play as a proper #10. This is where Herrera was key for us as he'd allow us to move the ball forward to our main creators without having to try to play it long or constantly passing it from side to side between the defensive players. Every time he plays in an attacking role, he frequently pushes too far forward unlike what a proper #10 should do. It's almost reminiscent of Rooney under Moyes, who, instead of vertically roaming and looking for the ball, would frequently push up to the defenders whilst our midfielders sit deep and not even try to move the ball forward except through the wingers and full backs or through a long punt forward.

When we lost Herrera, we struggled to move the ball forward as Blind wasn't willing to move to a more advanced midfield position to move the ball forward; likewise with Carrick. Both were trying to look for a passing option ahead of them through the middle, which was unavailable as both Fellaini and Rooney were right at the defenders, forcing us to move the ball forward through the wingers and full backs or through a long ball to Fellaini. This somewhat worked until we lost di Maria, resulting us in not having anyone else good enough to create chances up ahead.

A #10 under van Gaal needs to make themselves available to pick up the ball higher up the pitch and willing to create chances and score goals. Fellaini doesn't offer this at all and is better suited to playing in the #8 role instead of Herrera, where his aggression, tight marking, ball-winning abilities, and possession retention skills can be better utilised.

 

[Rob Bowman]

I agree with you tbh. I was just pointing out that its not how he wants to play.

Sorry but while I hope what you say is true neither you or I have proof of what he wants. More importantly isn't that what he has been going on and on about for months... his philosophy?

Why then are we playing like this instead of as per his precious philosophy... ?

 

[Escobar]

I prefer Mata to Fellaini and I'm sure most fans do so. LVG wants Fellaini to drop deeper and once we're in position, get into the box. It's a simple tactic andway too predictable, slow and considering the fact Fellaini is a limited footballer it's just not "dangerous" enough meaning the opposite defenders are not really troubled enough

 

[Cnaiür urs Skiötha]

It is a miracle to me why we are not able to produce some nice-to-watch football with players like Mata, Herrera, AdM, Rooney.
Not an offense against Fellaini who I respect and is a useful player to have available.

 

[Sam]

Can you imagine Fellaini starting for any other 'top team' in an attacking role? City? Arsenal? Chelsea? Bayern? Barca? Madrid?

No, me neither.

 

[Pexbo]

Can you imagine Fellaini starting for any other 'top team' in an attacking role? City? Arsenal? Chelsea? Bayern? Barca? Madrid?

No, me neither.

I could imagine both City and Chelsea using him as a plan B. Who was the defender Mourinho used to play up front when chasing games or am I remembering someone else?

 

[Zoo]

I could imagine both City and Chelsea using him as a plan B. Who was the defender Mourinho used to play up front when chasing games or am I remembering someone else?

Robert Huth.

 

[Walrus]

Damn this hoofball again!

 

[Jippy]

I prefer Mata to Fellaini and I'm sure most fans do so. LVG wants Fellaini to drop deeper and once we're in position, get into the box. It's a simple tactic andway too predictable, slow and considering the fact Fellaini is a limited footballer it's just not "dangerous" enough meaning the opposite defenders are not really troubled enough

Lol, the big guy has done well tonight.

 

[Sam]

So maybe the solution is to actually play both of them

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Seems to have worked recently. Think Fellaini's been excellent as the most advanced midfielder, whilst Mata has been equally as good on the right.

 

[Joga Bonito]

It is the balance which is great to see. Herrera-Mata on the right with their telepathic link up and more patient possession play complementing the slightly leftish Fellaini (due to Mata cutting in) and Young's more direct play. It's more of a 4-2-2 and then a LW in Young and a CF in Rooney.

Fellaini hasn't played as a #10 or a second striker recently but rather a LAM and he does look good there.

 

[Walrus]

I made this point in another thread but I reckon LVG doesn't like Mata as a #10 due to how little he contributes defensively.

More and more teams are switching towards stacking players in midfield. Having a #10 who doesnt track back is as good as playing with two strikers, which is something that most teams simply do not do - at least not as a plan A.
Look at when Chelsea sold Mata to us in the first place - they replaced him with Oscar, who is a much harder working player who offers more defensively.

Having Fellaini as #10 offers us so much more defensively as a team, compared with a Mata or Kagawa type player. This I feel is important for the overall balance of the side, but even moreso that it allows us to play Herrera in CM (which is where he should be playing, in my opinion) - whereas I dont think LVG would want to 'risk' playing Mata as #10, and then a more creative, less disciplined player like Herrera in CM.

 

[m1y2]

I don't think Mata started enough games in 4-3-3 if any to prove himself. He started more as 10 in the stupid 2 strikers system when number 10 can be played only by someone like Vidal, a player with great stamina, able to press defenders/keeper and help to distribute the ball from deep as well. Mata is still our best no10. We started to play sth just in last two games. I think with this kind of motivation and changed tactics every player would do better.

Fellaini is a good option there as well albeit completely different. I still don't know what to think about him. If Van Gaal can upgrade him a little bit more and Fellaini set his standard as high as for last two games he s a starter for me there. He won't upgrade on speed but he should be trying to do his best to get better at shooting and dribbling , he could be absolute beast then. Yeah and his needless fauls are frustrating but he showed good composure last game so I am really looking forward to seeing him play and I am completely ok with Juanito from the right after the recent performances..

 

[deleon]

I made this point in another thread but I reckon LVG doesn't like Mata as a #10 due to how little he contributes defensively.

More and more teams are switching towards stacking players in midfield. Having a #10 who doesnt track back is as good as playing with two strikers, which is something that most teams simply do not do - at least not as a plan A.
Look at when Chelsea sold Mata to us in the first place - they replaced him with Oscar, who is a much harder working player who offers more defensively.

Having Fellaini as #10 offers us so much more defensively as a team, compared with a Mata or Kagawa type player. This I feel is important for the overall balance of the side, but even moreso that it allows us to play Herrera in CM (which is where he should be playing, in my opinion) - whereas I dont think LVG would want to 'risk' playing Mata as #10, and then a more creative, less disciplined player like Herrera in CM.

It makes us more solid in the middle. But Mata and Valencia on the right can leave us vulnerable that side. Mata has done alright defensively in the last two games, so hopefully that will continue. Valencia's positioning is still questionable though.

It will be interesting to see how the pair deal with Hazard and Sanchez in the upcoming games.

 

[wiz4231]

I can understand the use of the Fellaini in big games and at this moment an out of form Di Maria. Its still not the way I'd like to see us set up. For me a football team can only play at their best when most players play with good chemistry. Herrera, Mata and Di Maria have a great understanding of each other, add Carrick to that, Smalling and Rojo + De Gea, that's not a bad bunch of players

De Gea
.....RB......Smalling......Rojo......LB.....
Herrera......Carrick
Di Maria............Mata................LW....
ST
​

RB: Rafael, Valencia
LB: Shaw, Blind
LW: Young, Januzaj (+ Nani)
ST: RVP, Rooney, Falcao (+ Hernandez)

I can't really say which out of them player would add chemistry to the team, its quite difficult to say the least (IMO Nani and Hernandez would have a shout for what thier individual qualities as players would add to the team).

​

 

[JPRouve]

I can understand the use of the Fellaini in big games and at this moment an out of form Di Maria. Its still not the way I'd like to see us set up. For me a football team can only play at their best when most players play with good chemistry. Herrera, Mata and Di Maria have a great understanding of each other, add Carrick to that, Smalling and Rojo + De Gea, that's not a bad bunch of players

De Gea
.....RB......Smalling......Rojo......LB.....
Herrera......Carrick
Di Maria............Mata................LW....
ST
​

RB: Rafael, Valencia
LB: Shaw, Blind
LW: Young, Januzaj (+ Nani)
ST: RVP, Rooney, Falcao (+ Hernandez)

I can't really say which out of them player would add chemistry to the team, its quite difficult to say the least (IMO Nani and Hernandez would have shout for what thier individual qualities as players would add to the team).

​

Our form is due to our setup, our organization, there is no need to modify it. I even think that it could be disastrous to do so.

 

[NL Max]

I can understand the use of the Fellaini in big games and at this moment an out of form Di Maria. Its still not the way I'd like to see us set up. For me a football team can only play at their best when most players play with good chemistry. Herrera, Mata and Di Maria have a great understanding of each other, add Carrick to that, Smalling and Rojo + De Gea, that's not a bad bunch of players

De Gea
.....RB......Smalling......Rojo......LB.....
Herrera......Carrick
Di Maria............Mata................LW....
ST
​

RB: Rafael, Valencia
LB: Shaw, Blind
LW: Young, Januzaj (+ Nani)
ST: RVP, Rooney, Falcao (+ Hernandez)

I can't really say which out of them player would add chemistry to the team, its quite difficult to say the least (IMO Nani and Hernandez would have a shout for what thier individual qualities as players would add to the team).

​

That midfield is never going to happen unfortunately. Van Gaal doesn't play a midfield with 2 attacking players (Herrera & Mata). He always has 2 defensive players and 1 attacking player. Fellaini is there to provide defensive balance and he's a good target man. Unless Herrera improves dramatically defensive wise that's a midfield van Gaal will never use.

 

[Brightonian]

Let's face it, it's misleading to describe Fellaini's role at the moment as a #10. Just because he's in those areas of the pitch doesn't mean he's doing anything at all resembling what people normally mean when they talk about a #10.

His job is to be a combative central midfielder pressing high up the pitch when the opponent has the ball, and then to get himself into target man positions in and on the edge of the box when we get the ball, looking to receive aerial balls and provide knock-downs and lay-offs for our other forwards. It's a pretty specific job - even more so, in fact, because he's obviously been told to deliberately stick close to Young and Blind on the left wing to create those three-on-two situations down the touchline that are working so well for us (in the same way that Mata, Herrera and Valencia are on the right).

So to pose the question as anything like 'who makes the more effective #10, Mata or Fellaini?' is obviously misleading.

 

[Yorkeontop]

I made this point in another thread but I reckon LVG doesn't like Mata as a #10 due to how little he contributes defensively.

More and more teams are switching towards stacking players in midfield. Having a #10 who doesnt track back is as good as playing with two strikers, which is something that most teams simply do not do - at least not as a plan A.
Look at when Chelsea sold Mata to us in the first place - they replaced him with Oscar, who is a much harder working player who offers more defensively.

Having Fellaini as #10 offers us so much more defensively as a team, compared with a Mata or Kagawa type player. This I feel is important for the overall balance of the side, but even moreso that it allows us to play Herrera in CM (which is where he should be playing, in my opinion) - whereas I dont think LVG would want to 'risk' playing Mata as #10, and then a more creative, less disciplined player like Herrera in CM.

You my friend are correct. He alluded to in his post match comments.
http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2015/03/23/10105822/van-gaal-mata-always-plays-well-for-me

 

[Escobar]

Fellaini is not really playing ahead of Mata in the no.10 position as he has a different role. He's more box to box

 

[Walrus]

Call the role whatever you want, he is playing as the most advanced of the midfield three.

It is basically a box to box role but moved forward a notch - so that he tends to play from fairly deep in our half, right into the opponents penalty area (and obvious gets back into ours to defend set pieces).

Personally it is a role I really like and see value in, because it provides balance and a defensive contribution from high up the pitch. Sometimes with a "defensive striker" like the Rooney of old, or perhaps Tevez, it detracts from their ability to lead the line properly. Rooney as a striker used to play quite deep, and constantly drop back into midfield to get involved in the game, but it was ultimately to our detriment as we lacked any sort of focal point in attack as a result.

The current system however, still fields a true #9 (which Rooney now is) who can remain a focal point for the attack, can stretch the defenders, play off the last man if required etc. But with the role that Fellaini plays, it brings so much balance to the team and links midfield and attack perfectly. Furthermore as I said before, it allows us to play an attacking CM such as Herrera without unbalancing the side, and I dont think LVG would risk doing that if it was Mata rather than Fellaini as the most-advanced-midfielder (see, its quicker to just say #10).

 

[finneh]

Call the role whatever you want, he is playing as the most advanced of the midfield three.

He's playing equally as advanced as Herrera, just on the other side (maybe 5 yards further forward if you wanted to be picky).

Fellaini is not really playing ahead of Mata in the no.10 position as he has a different role. He's more box to box

Yea the formation is definitely a 4-3-3, rather than a 4-2-3-1 with a designated number 10.

The average positions against Spurs and below vs Liverpool:

You can clearly see that after the success against Spurs that Fellaini pealed even further out wide onto the left hand side and Mata consequently came inside further, closer to Herrera.

 

[carlosp]

He's playing equally as advanced as Herrera, just on the other side (maybe 5 yards further forward if you wanted to be picky).



Yea the formation is definitely a 4-3-3, rather than a 4-2-3-1 with a designated number 10.

The average positions against Spurs and below vs Liverpool:

You can clearly see that after the success against Spurs that Fellaini pealed even further out wide onto the left hand side and Mata consequently came inside further, closer to Herrera.

It's worked nicely, you can see those triangles in there.

 

[Listar]

Should be a sackable offense to be honest.

I'm not even a huge fan of Mata but basically forcing us to play long balls because he can't find another way of doing things is not befitting of a Manchester United manager.

Imagine if we had sack van gaal there and then...

 

[The Red Thinker]

Our form is due to our setup, our organization, there is no need to modify it. I even think that it could be disastrous to do so.

Well said. LVG plays a certain way and for the PL version the Brain-Agility-Muscle set up of Carrick-Herrera-Fellaini is working wonders. Herrera will press relentlessly. Carrick will position himself expertly to keep the ball moving from the back consistently and Fellaini will win 90% of long balls from DDG and will also use his immense power and frame to keep the press effective. Felli's also been fantastic going forward off late, so he's turning into a box-to-box kind of man with a more advanced position on the pitch.

 

[LR7]

We aren't playing with a 'number ten' at the moment. Also the current set-up is getting the best out of both Mata - who has just had his best game ever for us, against the Scousers at Anfield - and Fellaini who has been influential in different ways in both of the last games. Their current roles are fine.