Fellaini didn't changed the game and Mata wouldn't have changed the game either. Not because of what you described but because we are not a team, we do not play like a team, we have eleven players who play their own game without any consideration for their teammates. If we change that we will be okay, even with our current players, but until then we can switch all our players one after the other, it won't change a thing.
Playing Fellaini ahead of Mata in the #10 role
- Thread starter Sam
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Fellaini didn't changed the game and Mata wouldn't have changed the game either. Not because of what you described but because we are not a team, we do not play like a team, we have eleven players who play their own game without any consideration for their teammates. If we change that we will be okay, even with our current players, but until then we can switch all our players one after the other, it won't change a thing.
I don't think there's a future for Mata in our squad. The damage has already been done. It's very seldom a player can turn a case like this around. He might play well for a couple of games, but if he's not an automatic pick he might as well start looking for a new club. I think it's a big shame. Mata was one of the best players in the league and why would he still not be that guy?
LVG you feckhead. You little prick. You fecking nobhead. All these players and this is what you present?????????? I'm pretty sure my grandma would have had more success by just asking the players where they want to play and then let them do it. I'm starting to wonder if you're just one big charlatan of a manager. Do you even know the rules you fat smug bastard???
LVG you feckhead. You little prick. You fecking nobhead. All these players and this is what you present?????????? I'm pretty sure my grandma would have had more success by just asking the players where they want to play and then let them do it. I'm starting to wonder if you're just one big charlatan of a manager. Do you even know the rules you fat smug bastard???
This is what I find funny about it all, I'm sure Moyes would've loved to use Fellaini like LVG has but Moyes was too scared to use him like that. It's why i think Fellaini was so poor under Moyes and why he's done relatively well for LVG.
Like many others have said, the problem with Fellaini is that you have to play a certain (unattractive) style of football in order to get the best out of him. To me it doesn't actually matter how well Fellaini plays because him being on the pitch almost guarantees shit football.
Spot on mate.
Seriously? Wow!
I think I mentioned something similar to this before. Moyes would have been destroyed for using Fellaini as a number 10, yet it is his best position - not as a playmaker but almost as a deep-lying target man. I think it can be effective when we're chasing a lead, but he just lacks the technical ability to play as the number 10 that we want, and see at other top clubs. He does work hard, but you can't argue that he doesn't slow down our play at times.
When have we ever done anything other than immediately hit long balls back post to Fellaini which inevitably just turns to hoofing the ball up to him in the center of the pitch? I meant the style of play rather than the actual quality of play if that's how you took it.
Unfortunately that kind of how I see it as well. LVG seems to have outlayed a very confused set of instructions; we're trying to do possession football whilst then pumping the ball up to Fellaini.
Fellaini when playing close to the main striker seems to have the Peter Crouch effect on the team as well.
Oh, so he didn't play as a centre midfielder earlier on in the season, where we arguably produced our best performances and played decent football?
Another thing I don't quite get is how exactly LVG decided to start playing Fellaini and leaving Mata out. For a while Mata was starting every game, mostly playing will and contributing a goal or an assist most of those games, then out of nowhere he suddenly sees himself on the bench and is given no playing time at all while Fellaini is now playing every minute of every game. There just doesn't seem to be any logic to why LVG does some of the things he does, it's certainly not like we've improved with Fellaini in the side.
Does Van Gaal know that if we have a slow, precise build up play (like we have been doing) then Fellaini can also get into the box from deep and still use his aerial presence when we get into good positions for a cross?
Playing him as a number 10 means our build up play lacks, because he's not the type of 10 to drop off and create openings for others. This means our build up play fails, as there's no one to link the play. I'm surprised Van Gaal, who supposed to be a footballing genius, hasn't seen this.
Playing him as a number 10 means our build up play lacks, because he's not the type of 10 to drop off and create openings for others. This means our build up play fails, as there's no one to link the play. I'm surprised Van Gaal, who supposed to be a footballing genius, hasn't seen this.
Not that I remember honestly. The only decent attacking football I can remember is at the beginning of the season with Blind, Herrera, and Di Maria in midfield.
Attacking football, that also saw us concede five against a very average Leicester side?
Fact is, when Fellaini got put into our midfield in the West Brom game, we looked a lot balanced, in my opinion, and didn't play anymore long balls with him, then we did without him. We only started doing this because Van Gaal, for one reason or another, has started playing him off the striker. If he was playing in a deeper position, that would not be possible.
Perhaps it's also worth pointing out that it all starts at the back. During half time, my TV channel showed clips of Arsenal's build up play vs. our build up play. Arsenal were comfortably ticking it around, even when we put full pressure on them they found the free man at the back.
Then they showed clips of our defense struggling at the basics of build up play. Van Gaal has seen this because it's always the same, and a good way to relief some pressure if you can't play from the back, is to play the long ball. And that's where Fellaini comes in very handy. If we wouldn't crack under the slightest pressure constantly, there would be much less reasons to play Fellaini.
Then they showed clips of our defense struggling at the basics of build up play. Van Gaal has seen this because it's always the same, and a good way to relief some pressure if you can't play from the back, is to play the long ball. And that's where Fellaini comes in very handy. If we wouldn't crack under the slightest pressure constantly, there would be much less reasons to play Fellaini.
Against Chelsea he was good and we weren't throwing long balls at him, he put a good performance as a box to box.
I agree with that but when you do that you need to have players who will gravitate around your target man and will fight fiercely for the second balls, that's where Fellaini is useless, he does his work and does it very well but it's useless when no one play according to this strategy.
I can see why he possibly doesn't want to build around Mata, I've never been entirely convinced by him. Best way I can describe it is if you look at Paul Scholes stats never really told the true story of how he controlled games, whereas Mata is the opposite where stats make him look better than he actually is imo. Still despite that he is a better option than hoofing it up to Fellaini, doing it for the last 10 mins I can understand but he started with him!
I disagree. Part and parcel of why Arsenal's defence look so comfortable playing from the back is because they always have 3/4 options off the ball. If not, more. Us, on the other hand, have barely anyone. Blind drops into the defence, making it a back three, the other midfielder gets crowded out, the full back and wingers don't create angles to recieve the ball on the half turn and our supposed attacking midfielder doesn't drop off into the pockets and link the midfield with attack.
Our teams a state, and this can all be changed by tactics. Nothing to do with the defence. This is not me saying our centre backs our brilliant at distributing the ball from the back, but if you give them options off the ball, they'll find the pass.
If we didn't have Fellaini, we'd have to adapt. We've got good enough play football, without hoofing it to Fellaini. Van Gaal should know this.
I think we have to sell him in the summer so we arent tempted to keep using him as a #10. It will stop us playing hoofball like Stoke or West Ham.
Exactly, and it is pretty terrible to see this. Because of Fellaini I kept on thinking how our team of yesterday would compare to Everton when Moyes was coach there. We were trying really hard which was great to see, but there was not enough quality. As for tactics, Van Gaal is very much a coach who wants to build from the back, and in the end he's responsible. But he can coach all he wants, if the players can't apply it then it's useless. So I don't know how much you can realistically blame him, but if he can't fix it there's no excuse.
But I also saw Mata has played in 25 matches this season, Fellaini in 21 matches. Don't know about minutes, but I do know Mata almost always plays as a #10. Van Gaal probably quite likes Mata, maybe not as the ideal long term #10 but in this squad it's a player he normally likes. But he sees it just doesn't work and tries something different with Fellaini, because first the defense, and then like you mentioned also the midfield struggle with their decision making on the ball so long balls will be likely to happen.
Not sure about total time but in the last 5 games Mata has averaged 22 minutes per game while Fellaini had averaged 75 mins per game. Fellaini is not our plan B, he is our main weapon.
Yeah, but over the whole season in the league Mata has 17 starts 6 subs, Fellaini has only 10 starts, 7 subs. And like I said, I think Mata played as #10 almost always. So I don't know if he doesn't like Mata anymore, or maybe he thought the team needs something else. But it hasn't really worked out for the last matches.
Mata played 12 games as a CM.
Fellaini will struggle to get too many games next season once LvG has the midfielder he wants and can play a creative player at No 10. Very likely that player will be one of Herrera or Mata.
Mata is the better footballer no doubt and I feel has earned a go at the 10 spot with this current line up considering our lack of nous up front. He's up and down at best though and by no means surefire solution.
This is what I'm hoping, once he gets a proper box to box center mid to accompany Blind (plus some defenders) he hopefully won't feel the need to play Fellaini.
Of course I can blame Van Gaal for our play style, just like any other manager would be blamed. It's Van Gaal that that plays Fellaini as a 10. It's Van Gaal who tells midfielders to play high up, thus forcing our centre backs to run out with it, resulting in losing it or hoofing up the pitch, due to a lack of options. That can all be stopped with a few personnel changes and instructions given to the players.
As for Mata, he's hardly ever played a number 10, in a 4231 this season. Yes, he played there a few times when we played a diamond, and looked ok, but Mata, just like Ozil, thrives in a team with width and runners around him, which gives them space to create.
Why not play them now then? I mean, as well as qualifying for the CL, shouldn't this season be about getting the players used to the way Van Gaal intends to play in the future? Look at Pochettino. He's brought the exact same football he played with Southampton to Spurs.
Fellaini, in my opinion, hasn't made a massive difference since he's been pushed further, and was arguably better in the deeper position.
If Mata was playing as a number 10 at all before this season it would have been behind both Van Persie and Falcao who lets be honest have provided zero movement, at least Rooney would provide a bit of nous going forward for Mata to exploit.
It's down to two groups/people:
1. The fans have to start booing him again. Sorry Fellaini, but you're doing just enough to be viewed as 'acceptable' - which is a crime in that most crucial attacking position. You're not acceptable. You're terrible and you're ruining our entire play style. Like England with Peter Crouch. If LVG won't hook him, boo the poor bastard til the pressure kicks in.
2. (Preferably) Have Phil Jones 'man mark' Fellaini for the next 3 practice sessions. Job done.
1. The fans have to start booing him again. Sorry Fellaini, but you're doing just enough to be viewed as 'acceptable' - which is a crime in that most crucial attacking position. You're not acceptable. You're terrible and you're ruining our entire play style. Like England with Peter Crouch. If LVG won't hook him, boo the poor bastard til the pressure kicks in.
2. (Preferably) Have Phil Jones 'man mark' Fellaini for the next 3 practice sessions. Job done.
I am inclined to agree that we do not play as a team very well - but then again half of the team only arrived last summer (not literally, although its close...)
I will repeat what I said before - we do not have players capable of consistently creating something out of nothing, or of beating a man. Because of this, our attacking options are very limited and we are easy to defend against. Our best strategy in such conditions is to try to diversify our attack as much as possible, to make the most of what options we have left. Fellaini provides this diversity, giving us options and choices and different ways to potentially score goals.
When we have a fully firing, fluid set of attackers like Barca, Real or most other top teams, there can be an argument that Fellaini is no longer needed in that sort of role, but in the meantime I think he is one of our most important players in the attacking third. Not because he is a world class player, but because by simply being there on the pitch, he forces the opponent to potentially alter their gameplan.
I didn't think Fellaini was too bad last night, he did his job very well. His hold up play created some good opportunities (for Young and Di Maria off the top of my head) but Herrera coming off and Di Maria's red card left us with no willing runners from midfield. There were a lot of times in the second half where he brought down a long ball only to be forced to pass it 15 yards backwards simply because there was no other option. Ultimately I have no problem playing through Fellaini in that way, but for it to work the rest of the team has to be on the same page. If you've not got players running off him and giving him options there's no point.
The one thing I wasn't pleased with was his fouling, most were just clumbsy, but some were down to the referee enacting the 'any contact Fellaini makes on another player is automatically a foul' rule. It might not be fair but referees aren't going to change so he needs to learn not to give the opposition an excuse.
The one thing I wasn't pleased with was his fouling, most were just clumbsy, but some were down to the referee enacting the 'any contact Fellaini makes on another player is automatically a foul' rule. It might not be fair but referees aren't going to change so he needs to learn not to give the opposition an excuse.
This was roughly my take on the game as well. Worth noting that many of Fellaini's best moments were chances that he created for players by playing a through ball, along the ground. Something that the caf' seems to think he is incapable of.
I hope this is all some elaborate plan to swindle a large sum of cash for him in the summer. It just doesn't make sense.
Even Allardici won't pay more than 10-13m for him.
Yeah he played some nice through balls for Di Maria and Januzaj amongst others yesterday.
Fellaini does what he does well. Holding up play, making a nuisance of himself (though I still think he loses waaay too many headers against smaller guys). The problem as most have said, is that it gives our players that temptation to just lob it up to him. Smalling and Rojo did that quite a few times (quite a few times without success as well) when a defender like a younger / prime Rio would run into the space that was afforded to draw out the opposition defenders and move them out of position.
Whats also frustrating is how we can only find our players with like 1 cross out of 30 attempts.
Whats also frustrating is how we can only find our players with like 1 cross out of 30 attempts.
Maybe, I don't know. Do you have a website, because now I checked by hand and it took me almost 10 minutes
I checked here http://www1.skysports.com/manchester-united-results
Line ups at every match showed that Mata played in starting line up as a #10:
First half of season against
Swansea
Sunderland
Burnley
QPR
Chelsea
Everton
West Bromwich Albion
Hull City
Stoke City
Southampton
Liverpool
Aston Villa
Newcastle
Tottenham
2nd
Stoke City 1 januari
Southampton 11 januari
QPR 17 januari
+
Cambridge 3th februari = cup games
17 league starts as a #10?
We played a lot like this in a 5-3-2.
------- Carrick------
--Rooney ---------
------------ Mata
Different systems, but maybe you mean this by CM?
@Henrik Larsson according to whoscored it's 10 not 12, http://www.whoscored.com/Players/25363
In 2014 when he played in the 4-4-2 diamonds or the 3-5-2, it was almost all the time as a central midfielder not as a 10.
In 2014 when he played in the 4-4-2 diamonds or the 3-5-2, it was almost all the time as a central midfielder not as a 10.
Yes then I understand where it comes from, thank you. Otherwise it wouldn't add up if I say 17 starts as a #10 + 12 starts CM= 29 games. While he only played 23 inlcuding subs. I guess it's down to the difference between a classic #10 or the most attacking midfielder in a 3/5 men midfield.
It would seem that the limiting factor against us playing fluid, attacking football is a lot closer to home than that. Tactically we are suffocating our players. It's horrible to watch.
He doesnt have a box to box mid to partner Blind/Carrick, that's why.