Player Power

RedOrange said:
There were some "bad" transfers that ended up actually being managed well, like Dan James, Lukaku and Di Maria. Typically the club holds on to their mistakes too long, though.

Most fans perceive this as the result of a lack of accountability but I think it's more a product of decisionmakers at the club being terrified of admitting mistakes and being excessively risk averse because they're afraid of losing their jobs. They can always defend giant transfer fees for big names, because the CEO and Board are all Real Estate and Investment Banking people, and striking huge deals is how they got where they are. It's harder to defend something like binning off a player who's past it to buy one who's better but lesser known, because if it goes wrong it looks worse than just maintaining an existing asset.

This is true of the fans, too. Binning off Fred and De Gea and replacing them with Mount and Onana turned a good chunk of fans against ETH immediately. They want the big names and they want to keep the players they've heard of.
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I don’t even know if it was that. I think we all wanted Mount and Onana to be instant successes, then Fred and De Gea would just be former players (who received criticism of their own from sections of the fan base too).
 
Fortitude said:
You are not acknowledging that to match runners and contest against a far superior set of athletes, you have to be deployed in the right places tactically in the first place.
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They aren't a superior set of athletes. They are more physical in a lot of cases but at the top level when you only give 95% or less then you will be found out repeatedly. They aren't faster than our players all over the pitch. They just have far more desire. There is a reason for new manager bounces and a lot of it is effort levels. When you go from being abject to suddenly bounding around the pitch and winning all your 50:50s simply because the manager has changed that is entirely because you weren't putting in the effort previously. Thats where United are right now coupled with poor tactics or players unwilling to enact the tactics they are being taught.

Fortitude said:
To run hard has no value in isolation. In fact, it can be used against you as holes are left wherever you have abandoned; to collectively press you need to be set up correctly; at that point you will see exactly who is not prepared to put in a shift. Running around aimlessly or even tracking runners by yourself is folly because you can be used as the decoy run, which is another tactical flaw in how we are set up. There is no way at all the tactical set up does not come under intense scrutiny before layer tracing the pieces (players) on top - it literally has to work in harmony or there is no point. The position map meme is how we always play this season. People who were talking up the run of form were told that the points accrued were not a measure of where we were at and that better teams than the ones we were struggling to get those points off of would be the litmus test. People genuinely seem to be shocked that we are as bad as Newcastle made us look, so shocked even that they have decided that the same team that was just being lauded for the run of game, must be the culprit as they have decided all of a sudden that they don’t want to play anymore. Makes perfect logical sense. I am trying to determine whether it’s cognitive dissonance or bad faith discussion that the same people talking up the team two games ago have turned around and blamed them for the routing we were on the end of on Saturday.
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I completely understand that you need to be in the right places at the right times to be able to effectively press and do your job and there is no merit in running around like a headless chicken but thats a macro argument. Thats looking at the game as a whole and talking about where things went wrong tactically as a team. Then there is the micro. Players making the effort to get into the right places to do their jobs. Players giving 100% to win the ball back or contest a 50:50. Watching City the other day its ridiculous the difference. It wasn't their shape, it was their effort levels. Players sprinting to offer an outlet or track their man. They know that if don't, someone else will be playing next game and they will bust a gut.

So no, I don't believe that Newcastle are a superior set of athletes and that won them the game. We were just pathetic all over the pitch. Maguire stood out because he did put in the work all over the pitch.

I don't know who is saying we have played well recently either because we haven't. I haven't watched all of our games this season but I honestly can't think of a single honest to god good performance this season. We have been chancing our luck a lot and relying on our talented players to dig us out of holes.

Fortitude said:
You cannot refer to the exploits of last season without acknowledging we actually set up with a midfield then and gave the team the chance to get a footing in the game. We didn’t look particularly great, but we didn’t look like a sieve either. Only two of the worst sides to have ever been promoted have had more shots against them than us this entire season, so have the players been playing with a tool belt on all season, or is something emphatically wrong with how we are set up this term as opposed to last?
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Again, I am talking about effort levels. Our team has all the spine of a jellyfish. You can have a poor formation and tactics but that doesn't stop you from putting in the effort. Yes we had a more solid midfield last season but even this season when we have had our strongest midfield we have looked porous. I don't think its necessarily tactical in those games, we just aren't putting in the hard graft. Players won't have been told to jog back or ignore runners. You can have the best tactics in the world but if your players aren't putting in the work you will suffer.

Fortitude said:
your last sentence says that once the going gets tough the players fold. Has it not occurred to you that now we’re playing better teams, weak tactical plans and personnel deployment is there for the taking? I would think it’s rather rudimentary that the best CM in the league backed by a powerful, aggressive and willing runner in Joelinton would run us over hot coals in the same set up where far inferior teams can’t capitalise. We have a run of games coming up where not playing with a midfield is downright suicidal and it doesn’t take elite prescience to conclude that our team will be accused of downing tools again and again in lieu of acknowledging a poor setup backed by players who are not good enough in the first place cannot produce even a fighting performance. You mightn’t be able to set up a side to win, but you can certainly set up a side to lose, or better to say, be sent out delimited before a ball has even been kicked. We did not do that last season, hence we battled along and achieved what we did, but this season, it’s the only thing we are doing and the results and perfomances will fall in line with that.
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That midfield just got absolutely schooled by PSG last week. Its not as good as you are suggesting. Newcastle looked like the team they mostly are vs PSG. Physical and they work hard but they aren't technically brilliant. I agree that our midfield was crap but we seem to differ on why it was crap. I think its a combination of effort levels and setup and you seem to think its almost all setup.

As to "once the going gets tough the players fold" I stand by that. We have plenty of quality in our squad so we can be completely outplayed and still win matches which is what I have seen this season plenty of times. That situation means that semi-regularly, mainly against good teams we will not only be abject but the opposition will absolutely slaughter us for it.
 
The title of this thread is 'Player Power' by which I assume it is meant to say that the players are doing what they like and are running the club and team. Well they are not doing a very good job and, I tell you now, Sir Jim Ratcliffe and Brailsford will have anyone that is culpable of even thinking they are above the club or Manager out on their spoilt arses. ETH hasn't got the Kudos of a top top Manager, an ex-player that has won some of the top competitions and that may be at the heart of this so called dressing room issue. SAF had won stuff as a manager and a player before he came to United, so has some authority when he spoke. I know ETH had won the title three times with Ajax, but they were the top team for years in Holland but this generation of players with their agents and social media profiles don't seem to respond to certain individuals. They will respond to Ratcliffe or they'll be gone no matter if your Rashford, Bruno or the cleaning lady.
 
There's no reason for the players to change their attitude. Club has shown time and time again, they will just fire the manager and give everyone a "clean slate" with the new manager. No other club will pay their wages, so they are in no danager of being transferred. Worst case you get Sancho'd and still collect your pay check so why not run down your contract?

We have a bunch of over paid & unmotivated players because of the terrible way the club does business all due to shit ownership and no footballing structure. Allowing ETH to blow massive transfer fee's on his blokes or past their prime veterans was insane and just another sign that nothing has changed.
 
So can we end this illogical talk from some saying dalot, Shaw, Maguire, mctominay and bruno are rotten eggs trying to get ten hag the sack and also that these same players having trying to get managers sacked for years now
 
VP89 said:
There's no credible report of a fall out though.

Varane is a RCB, he doesn't compete with Evans, Shaw or Lindelof as they are considerations for LCB. He has been displaced by Maguire because Maguire can stay fit. Maguire has been the only consistency in the back 4 and that's Varanes position.
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Listen mate if you think that's the reason Varane's been frozen out. Fair play to you.

He's played Lindelof mostly on the right but yeah OK he can only play of the left now, just like Varane can only play on the right now. And Maguires been sensational all season and couldn't possibly be rotated or miss a minute of any game. No idea why Ten Hag barely played him last season and tried to sell him all summer.

Yeah OK.
 
Alex99 said:
To a midfield and attack structured and operating similarly?

These are genuine questions, by the way. I've barely paid any attention to Madrid's tactical set up.
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Honest question do you think our plays been structured this season?
 
Alex99 said:
There have definitely been attempts at structured play. We saw as much last night.
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Yeah some sporadic attempts, but if you look at our season so far as a whole. Then let's be honest it'd be hard to determine what sort of style (if any) we're even aiming for, we've been awful. From that point of view I don't see how Varane would be a downgrade over Evans or Lindelof at LCB. I just don't see it.

I don't need crredible reports to know when a manager is going out of his way to not give a player any minutes unless he's absolutely forced to.
 
stevoc said:
Yeah some sporadic attempts, but if you look at our season so far as a whole. Then let's be honest it'd be hard to determine what sort of style (if any) we're even aiming for, we've been awful. From that point of view I don't see how Varane would be a downgrade over Evans or Lindelof at LCB. I just don't see it.

I don't need crredible reports to know when a manager is going out of his way to not give a player any minutes unless he's absolutely forced to.
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Varane is by far the worst on the ball of the centre backs that we have. Add to that his unreliability it makes sense that he isn't playing. Along with that when he does play defensively he is good but not exceptional. Further add the rumours that he is looking to leave and it makes sense that he is now not getting games.
 
stevoc said:
Honest question do you think our plays been structured this season?
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I know I'm not the person you directed this at but I think it's obvious we have been set up to play a certain way (I believe we have the highest forced turnover percentage in the opposition half?), but as the old adage goes "no plan survives the first contact with the enemy".
 
stevoc said:
Yeah some sporadic attempts, but if you look at our season so far as a whole. Then let's be honest it'd be hard to determine what sort of style (if any) we're even aiming for, we've been awful. From that point of view I don't see how Varane would be a downgrade over Evans or Lindelof at LCB. I just don't see it.

I don't need crredible reports to know when a manager is going out of his way to not give a player any minutes unless he's absolutely forced to.
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This is where the debate falls down a bit for me.

We have some people saying we've never had a clear playing style, people saying we did but we abandoned it for something else, and people saying we've rigidly stuck to the same thing the entire time.

I actually think Ten Hag has been pretty consistent with what he wants his LCB to do, right from day one, even if some of the other details of his system have been lost to me.

It's reasonable to think a player of Varane's quality should be able to play LCB to a higher standard than Lindelof and Evans, but he's not actually been too great in his preferred RCB position this season, which is precisely how he's ended up behind Maguire.
 
Lee565 said:
So can we end this illogical talk from some saying dalot, Shaw, Maguire, mctominay and bruno are rotten eggs trying to get ten hag the sack and also that these same players having trying to get managers sacked for years now
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Nah. As soon as we hit a rough patch we are back at it again. Snakes the lot of them.
 
Just going off what I can see on the pitch, the 50/50 dressing room split probably isn't far off.

Onana, Maguire, Dalot, Amrabat, Antony, Hojlund, Garnacho, Bruno, McTominay, Evans. Whether you rate these guys or not, the work rate is clearly there. Even Dalot who is prone to a brain fart works hard most games, and shows a lot of passion (sorry I know that's a dirty word round here) as well. I expect Mainoo can be included in this group too but not seen enough of him yet.

Martial, Casemiro, AWB, Varane, Rashford are the ones whose work rate, focus & body language is questionable. Case & Varane are capable of much higher performances than they have delivered this year, and it wouldn't surprise me if they think they're above all of this and are just biding their time for an exit.

Eriksen, Shaw & Lindelof I'd put somewhere in the middle. Generally professional performances but seem like they could take it or leave it. That's fine I suppose, but not when it translates into occasional lackadaisical performances.
 
stevoc said:
Listen mate if you think that's the reason Varane's been frozen out. Fair play to you.

He's played Lindelof mostly on the right but yeah OK he can only play of the left now, just like Varane can only play on the right now. And Maguires been sensational all season and couldn't possibly be rotated or miss a minute of any game. No idea why Ten Hag barely played him last season and tried to sell him all summer.

Yeah OK.
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Varane got injured. Maguire stepped in and played really well. When has Ten Hag used Varane on the right? Varane is a great defender but very one footed.
 
LittleKingCeadd said:
I genuinely think its why Fergie retired when he did, the writing was on the wall as they say.
He saw Rooney publicly criticise the clubs lack of ambition & then rumours of him looking to jump ship to City only to be rewarded with a big contract.

Think he saw the days of when you left United, your football career was never the same and you had to go abroad to one of the "Big 4" (Real, Barca, Bayern, Juve) slowly disappearing.
Once Chelsea/City were hot on the tails of United and could compete financially with them, he saw his power over players diminish.
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Good post and agree. If Fergie was still managing now, his hairdryer treatment wouldnt fly with some of the snowflake players around now.
 
Martial is done end of season and hopefully the club has the bollocks to sell Rashford. That would send a massive message out that no player is bigger than the manager or club
 
flameinthesun said:
Varane is by far the worst on the ball of the centre backs that we have. Add to that his unreliability it makes sense that he isn't playing. Along with that when he does play defensively he is good but not exceptional. Further add the rumours that he is looking to leave and it makes sense that he is now not getting games.
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And why didn't this make sense to Ten Hag last year, why was Varane first choice? Why was he still first choice over the summer when ETH tried to sell Maguire? Why wasn't the team built aroiund Maguire last year?

Varane crap on the ball and good at defending. This place.
 
Alex99 said:
This is where the debate falls down a bit for me.

We have some people saying we've never had a clear playing style, people saying we did but we abandoned it for something else, and people saying we've rigidly stuck to the same thing the entire time.

I actually think Ten Hag has been pretty consistent with what he wants his LCB to do, right from day one, even if some of the other details of his system have been lost to me.

It's reasonable to think a player of Varane's quality should be able to play LCB to a higher standard than Lindelof and Evans, but he's not actually been too great in his preferred RCB position this season, which is precisely how he's ended up behind Maguire.
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Fair enough but neither was Maguire at the start of the season either. He's playing well right now though to be fair as he's been given a run in the team and the opportunity to regain form. And yeah I agree, Varane is a better option on the left than either Evans or Lindelof but he's not being given the opportunities.

When's the last tine he even came on as a sub?
 
Lyng said:
Varane got injured. Maguire stepped in and played really well. When has Ten Hag used Varane on the right? Varane is a great defender but very one footed.
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I assume you mean left?

When did he use Lindelof on the left before this season? Rarely.

If Dalot as useless as he's been for most of the season can play at LB then Varane can get the odd run out at LCB. And while Maguires's playing well now, he hasn't been great all season. Ten Hag is also rotating a lot at LCB with Evans, Lindelof and now Shaw. It doesn't really make sense that Varane can't get minutes, even a few minutes in either position unless there is something else behind his absence.
 
stevoc said:
And why didn't this make sense to Ten Hag last year, why was Varane first choice? Why was he still first choice over the summer when ETH tried to sell Maguire? Why wasn't the team built aroiund Maguire last year?

Varane crap on the ball and good at defending. This place.
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I suppose the answer to that is that Maguire has only recently improved his performances to the point where he's a viable alternative.
 
stevoc said:
Fair enough but neither was Maguire at the start of the season either. He's playing well right now though to be fair as he's been given a run in the team and the opportunity to regain form. And yeah I agree, Varane is a better option on the left than either Evans or Lindelof but he's not being given the opportunities.

When's the last tine he even came on as a sub?
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Varane would have remained ahead of Maguire if he wasn't a) playing shite and b) constantly picking up small injuries. His form and constant absences gave Maguire the opportunity, and he's taken it.

Maguire isn't a long term solution, but he's reliably available and has improved his form so much that he's just been named PL player of the month.
 
Varane and Casemiro are both talented players, but their best days are behind them, that's why Real Madrid let them go. They both know their respective intended 'swan songs' at United are now in trouble because with the present United squad in which they find themselves, they need to have the same pace and levels of fitness they had in their best days at Madrid; but now neither can call on such levels, at least not twice, or sometimes three times, a week.

Maguire has come through hell in recent times and despite his admitted lack of pace, all he really needed for confidence was a keeper behind him who has the ability and the confidence to play out from the back and cover Maguire's lack of pace on recovery. In recent games we have seen him 'marauding' up and down the wings at times and going up for every set piece occasion.

Rashford seems to be heading down the same hole that Martial disappeared down a season or two back, it seems to be a question of commitment for both of them. Both seem to believe they are too good to be used as 'carriers of water and hewers of wood' and should not be asked to use up their energy with energy sapping defensive duties. Or both have now hit their 'plateaus' of their respective careers, Martial sometime back, but Rashford this season, where they cannot improve any further and are in real danger of slipping backwards. If this is the case then we need to seriously look at letting them go.

Antony just needs to be able to use his right foot other than for standing on.
 
Alex99 said:
Varane would have remained ahead of Maguire if he wasn't a) playing shite and b) constantly picking up small injuries. His form and constant absences gave Maguire the opportunity, and he's taken it.

Maguire isn't a long term solution, but he's reliably available and has improved his form so much that he's just been named PL player of the month.
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Maguire started I think 2 league games before the Derby, Varane has been fit since that game. Over that period and shortly after the derby none of our defenders were pulling up trees, not to the extent where Varane shouldn't have been given a few starts here and there.
 
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