Player Power

I'm still not seeing this player power, nothing makes me think libdelof, Maguire, shaw, bissaka or dalot are trying get rid of the manager, same goes for eriksen, amrabat, casimero, Mount, mctominay, mainoo, bruno, hojlund, garnacho, Antony and pellestri.

That leaves possibly varane, rashford and martial.

It's made up rubbish to excuse ten hag failures
 
I'm still not seeing this player power, nothing makes me think libdelof, Maguire, shaw, bissaka or dalot are trying get rid of the manager, same goes for eriksen, amrabat, casimero, Mount, mctominay, mainoo, bruno, hojlund, garnacho, Antony and pellestri.

That leaves possibly varane, rashford and martial.

It's made up rubbish to excuse ten hag failures
Why can't you see any of Lindelof, Maguire, Shaw, awb or Dalot doing it?

Given the optimal style ten hag wants suits almost none of those players, they have a vested interest in seeing him go before they get turfed in the next windows. Hypothetically speaking of course.
 
Why can't you see any of Lindelof, Maguire, Shaw, awb or Dalot doing it?

Given the optimal style ten hag wants suits almost none of those players, they have a vested interest in seeing him go before they get turfed in the next windows. Hypothetically speaking of course.

From what we have seen on the pitch they don't look like they downing tools, Maguire was the stand out player for the past month and shaw has returned in good form since returning
 
What's unique to United's player power is that United go on relegation level form before the manager gets sacked. That type of player power is not normal at the big clubs. The only other club that has happened to is Chelsea. Most managers get sacked at other big clubs because of league position that has fairly consistent results season to season (small swings, high standards), but it's usually not accompanied by this type of form that has such wild swings in form. This team has shown multiple times that it can climb to 2nd, or 3rd, and drop to a level that is laughably bad.
Even in those times when we've been 2nd or 3rd, we've been closer to the rest of the chasing pack than to the champions or title challengers. We've not been close in any run into like Arsenal last season or Liverpool of a few years ago to suggest the climb was all that serious. Not have we had an impressive CL campaign either.

I think these swings we've had haven't been as huge when you put into context performances and the state of other teams.
 
IF we sack ETH it would be a massive mistake. The players ( not all) are at fault here no doubt. It’s as clear as daylight.
 
From what we have seen on the pitch they don't look like they downing tools, Maguire was the stand out player for the past month and shaw has returned in good form since returning
Dalot is extremely inconsistent, wan bissaka same (he is also entering final year of contract so all the more reason to see another manager), Lindelof hasn't been great and is also nearing end of contract.

There are a few players who don't have a reason to bother under him, and there is also Rashford and Sancho who have been utter shite since getting their pay bumps.
 
People posting quotes from Matic with pictures of players that aren't even at the club anymore - and one that has been banished - as if they explain Ten Hag's inability of coaching a semi-decent defensive shape or his peculiar selections

IF we sack ETH it would be a massive mistake. The players ( not all) are at fault here no doubt. It’s as clear as daylight.

ah, here we go :lol:
 
People posting quotes from Matic with pictures of players that aren't even at the club anymore - and one that has been banished - as if they explain Ten Hag's inability of coaching a semi-decent defensive shape or his peculiar selections



ah, here we go :lol:
You're completely missing the point. Matic is highlighting a systemic problem in the squad, and whenever a disciplinarian comes in (Jose, Rangnick, ETH) they stop bothering. They leak they don't like the training methods and revolt.

This isn't a ten hag issue. This is a cultural problem. Ten hags failure to get us playing semi decent football isn't exclusive to ten hag. Any manager in that seat fecks up unless the culture changes. Ten hag himself said in one of the pressers that he was tasked with finally instilling proper discipline on the team. Of course with that comes the consequence of a fall out so I'm not really surprised by any leaks today.
 
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Even in those times when we've been 2nd or 3rd, we've been closer to the rest of the chasing pack than to the champions or title challengers. We've not been close in any run into like Arsenal last season or Liverpool of a few years ago to suggest the climb was all that serious. Not have we had an impressive CL campaign either.

I think these swings we've had haven't been as huge when you put into context performances and the state of other teams.
That's exactly what I've said in the past. I'm far from a believer in results. That doesn't disprove my point though. Us really being a 5th-6th place side based on performances, still has wild swings because if we're rightfully not hanging on results, United this season are playing like a side that is around 11th. Same with results with Rangnick.
 
You're completely missing the point. Matic is highlighting a systemic problem in the squad, and whenever a disciplinarian comes in (Jose, Rangnick, ETH) they stop bothering. They leak they don't like the training methods and revolt.

This isn't a ten hag issue. This is a cultural problem. Ten hags failure to get us playing semi decent football isn't exclusive to ten hag. Any manager in that seat fecks up unless the culture changes. Ten hag himself said in one of the pressers that he was tasked with finally instilling proper discipline on the team. Of course with that comes the consequence of a fall out so I'm not really surprised by any leaks today.
So how come Rashford just took it when he was fined and dropped for being late? Why didn't they fall out last season?

tHe cULtUre sounds like more excuses. I'm sure if he's managing City or Bayern he'd be winning trebles left and right.
 
So how come Rashford just took it when he was fined and dropped for being late? Why didn't they fall out last season?

tHe cULtUre sounds like more excuses. I'm sure if he's managing City or Bayern he'd be winning trebles left and right.
Rashford was on high morale and red hot form when it happened. And he came off the bench and scored the winner. The team was on a high, so it's nothing but a blip.

But that sort of treatment if it happened say, now, and it's a completely different scenario.

I dont know why you're playing dumb about the culture being a big problem. Do you think it isn't?

Also, Rashford wouldn't get close to Peps first XI. He'd see how loose he is on the ball even on his best days and drop him.
 
Rashford was on high morale and red hot form when it happened. And he came off the bench and scored the winner. The team was on a high, so it's nothing but a blip.

But that sort of treatment if it happened say, now, and it's a completely different scenario.

I dont know why you're playing dumb about the culture being a big problem. Do you think it isn't?
He already cleared out lots of people who didn't want to be here. I agree completely with your second paragraph though....its a different situation now, but lots of that was down to him. The players only started dropping their heads at St James Park and that was because they got outplayed from the start.

Toxic elements in the dressing room gets overplayed way too much here.
 
I'm not, thanks.

This is all an exercise in excusing shortcomings, a substantial number of them by the manager
Thats your opinion. Mine is different. The shit leaked today is the same shit that's come out under 3-4 other managers. Its astounding people keep living groundhog day thinking the manager is the problem again.
He already cleared out lots of people who didn't want to be here. I agree completely with your second paragraph though....its a different situation now, but lots of that was down to him. The players only started dropping their heads at St James Park and that was because they got outplayed from the start.

Toxic elements in the dressing room gets overplayed way too much here.
He didn't clear much by force. There was a lot of players going out naturally on expired contracts. He couldn't really turf out Martial, Sancho, McT, Maguire/Lindelof who were all seen as surplus to requirements.

I think it's worth remembering that these huge shifts in personnel are the job of a DoF. He has worked under a DoF and CEO that don't know if they have a job in a months time for the past year. I can imagine that's extremely difficult to operate under.

He made suggestions of his own which carried too much weight and led to errors. But that to me is a structural problem. Ten Hag is not a manager who stands for players not running or giving half arsed efforts. If they aren't listening to him I know where to point my finger. It's happened every 18 months irrespective of the manager so it's obvious.
 
Thats your opinion. Mine is different.

OK? I didn't quote you saying you're missing the point

The shit leaked today is the same shit that's come out under 3-4 other managers. Its astounding people keep living groundhog day thinking the manager is the problem again.

Almost as if it's possible to make multiple wrong managerial appointments. A mid-table steady-eddie, an old head that hadn't been in club management for eons, a washed up guy that had been sacked from his previous two jobs, a guy that got the role based mostly on his club legend status. Wow, I'm shocked these didn't pan out. Current guy was the first supposedly progressive manager in an upward trend the club has appointed, unfortunately he's not up to it - it happens. You go again.

Also, this seems relevant here somehow:

This (the bolded) is a complete myth, it boggles the mind how people still peddle it. Take just the last two managers and the last 4 years. From the squad Ole inherited from Mou in 2019 to the squad we have now, how many players are still here and in a starting role? It's 2, Rashford and Shaw. Martial is just a bench warmer with the occasional cameo (as he was under Mou), Lindelof the same. Although now that I think of it, Mou hated Shaw and he wasn't even playing him. All the others were signed afterwards.

"b-b-but it's the same players that failed under 3-4 managers!!!" absolute myth.

Guy can't coach a compact shape to save his life, his idea of a midfield that would cope with the demands og the prem was ICD Eriksen, Bruno and Casemiro, came with a reputation of possession based principles - completely gave those up - look at how much control he was happy to relinquish against Newcastle, and has been trying to recreate the Mctominay Brentford experiment for a while now. Also, up until very recently there were reports of the club and players standing behind him for all disciplinary calls including Ronaldo, and the Sancho debacle (that I'll still argue he created on the back of another defeat), yet now it's "the players!! whenever a disciplinarian comes in". Please :lol:

Naturally, when you can't produce, people will question your leadership.
 
I’d laugh my arse off if all these players waiting for Ratcliffe to come in get a shock if Ten Hag gets supported to carry on replacing them, with the backing of a recruitment team.
 
I’d laugh my arse off if all these players waiting for Ratcliffe to come in get a shock if Ten Hag gets supported to carry on replacing them, with the backing of a recruitment team.

Replacing them with the likes of Antony, Onana, Amrabat? Is this progress? The players that ETH brought here are worse than the players they are replacing, and they have 4-5 year contracts.
 
Well...it's not like they were playing for Ole as well who wasn't as much a disciplinarian as the vast majority of our previous managers.

So yes, it's a complete overhaul again. But ETH has brought in close to 50% of the current squad. So it's either stopping him from replacing the other 50% by sacking him or letting him see the overhaul through. My only concern is that ETH isn't the best at buying. He needs a DoF identifying the talent and he builds the relationship after.
 
Player power isn't a thing unique to United, it's just the reality of football. A manager has to manage the personalities in the squad as if any manager loses that trust it's curtains.

I think losing the entire squad is an indictment of the manager. Pep has had his fair share of issues at City, even two of his key players in Walker and Bernardo have had their own rumours of wanting to leave and not being happy with game time. Pep managed those players accordingly, shifted out some and won the confidence of those players back.

When shit gets bad, it's natural the players look to the manager to sort things out and if they lack faith, results dip as a result.

The likes of Varane and Casemiro have been model professionals at Madrid, seems both aren't too happy with ETH. I think rather than always looking at the perceived attitudes of players we have to focus on what the management team is doing to keep them motivated and confident.
I think if they were model professionals then the attitude should never be in doubt and I am definitely not saying that their attitude is.
When players put pen to paper on a contract they are doing that to play for first and foremost the club and while they are contracted to the club they should be giving 100% regardless who the Manager is and that is what I define as a model professional.
 
Meh. I don't know if I'd call it the issue. The manager can just... Drop these players if they aren't doing what he is asking of them or working hard.

What reason did Ten Hag to keep Rashford and Martial on at the start of the 2nd half? A strong manager should have subbed them off as he needs results and performances, and those 2 put in complete stinkers. Why did he wait to go behind to take them off?

Besides. Performances like this weekend wasn't a specific incident of players not working hard. It was the exact same performance we've seen when playing away to any top half team (top 12 actually). It was the same weaknesses, it was opponents beating us in the same way. It was painfully bad instructions that put players in bad positions, don't give them a set up to build up, don't give them a cohesive pressing structure (and give opponents easy outs). If we see the same shit even last season when confidence and belief was up, I promise you it's not players downing tools. It's being out coached and belief eventually dropping.
Zing.
 
I'm still not seeing this player power, nothing makes me think libdelof, Maguire, shaw, bissaka or dalot are trying get rid of the manager, same goes for eriksen, amrabat, casimero, Mount, mctominay, mainoo, bruno, hojlund, garnacho, Antony and pellestri.

That leaves possibly varane, rashford and martial.

It's made up rubbish to excuse ten hag failures
Watch the game against Newcastle again and watch Rashford semi sprinting then when he gets to the player instead of trying to tackle, he runs past the man. Absolutely no effort, pretending and definitely hoping the manager gets sacked for playing him out of his ‘favoured’ position. It’s not a dip in form it’s a disaster he’s created.
 
Replacing them with the likes of Antony, Onana, Amrabat? Is this progress? The players that ETH brought here are worse than the players they are replacing, and they have 4-5 year contracts.

Amrabat is on loan while the other two still have resale value and were replacing busted flushes in DDG and Sancho.
 
The amount of deflection going on in the Newcastle post mortem is a reflection of where fans are at.

I asked, repeatedly, who had 'downed tools' in the ETH thread to no response. Martial is what he is; Rashford, the manager could have hooked at any time, or even not started if he was suspicious or expectant of a bad performance.

People are going out of their way to excuse, gloss over or wholly ignore dire tactics and personnel deployment that in and of itself is causing morale to drop. The players aren't shirking their duty (as above, please tell me who is doing that) outside of Rashford; all of them are trying, but if this were a race, how they are being deployed and strategically placed, has them set up 50m behind the starting line in a 100m race. We got blitzed in the last game because nothing was done to cater to the strengths of the most athletic and aggressive team in the entire league. In fact, we were set up to further exacerbate their strengths and our weaknesses, and no amount of pretending or ignoring that is the case makes it not so.

There might be a time to turn on the players, but this game isn't it. If the manager constantly leaves the midfield in complete disarray how can you be astonished when physical juggernauts say thank you very much, don't mind if we do come through and plunder?

If you are in that squad and see an 18yr old with two games under his belt being set up in a way he's facing an onslaught all game from the most powerful pair of midfielders in the league, do you just go back to the dressing room and act like nothing happened or do you start having doubts about why that was allowed to happen? If you're in a team where a wide player is left to his own devices whilst his FB is constantly fending off multiple players running off him, do you have more doubts and concerns about what's being coached and permitted to happen, or do you keep your resolve as high? Outwardly, things mightn't show, but inwardly doubts arise.

Even this thing about running hard and the whys and wherefores of doing so; if you're not being drilled with solid, cohesive patterns, it is mostly human nature to question why you're doing these things again and again. Collective pressing is precisely that, and it only takes one let alone two or three not pulling their weight or being in the correct positions for that hard running to look completely aimless and redundant. If the shape you initially set out with isn't right and obvious breaches keep occurring because of that, morale will slide and players will lose faith in the plan and execution.

Players like winning. Players like praise and adulation. Players also like to be in stronger positions for contract negotiations or moves away from the club. This notion they just give up on that at the drop of a hat is absurd, not least because this same group of players got to two finals and finished 3rd last season. Players also seek redemption over being turfed out, which is why the likes of Maguire hang on for dear life.

What people seem to be confusing for conspiracy is that these players, despite giving their best aren't good enough. With the best will in the world, most of them are maxxed out and need selling on those grounds, but further still, these tactics and deployments don't give them a prayer of bridging their shortcomings.

We don't have a particularly likeable squad and I've been all for a cull for a long time, even making threads along those lines, but the deflections going on since the Newcastle game, where somehow the manager has been absolved for a horrid game in every sense of the word, displays either little objective reasoning or extremely bad faith baying for blood to explain away what was a clear as day tactical mauling.

There's irony in the culture of toxicity being directed at the players when blindly backing what can clearly be seen as shocking management is the alternative. You can rightfully be sick of these players and want them gone whilst acknowledging how dire we are set up, and further, how badly the manager responds in-game whilst most managers we come up against look like tactical masterminds for being able to run straight through us or exploit the plethora of weaknesses this set up has. Mainoo is literally by himself in deep midfield for most of the game and it's not a talking point after it? What reality is this?

If the manager does his bit, we'll see which players aren't doing theirs, but as I said earlier, if they are out there trying in a shocking set up, why would they not in a functional one?

Right now it's a case of dire management and poor players, rather than players who are indifferent or not trying (Martial and Rashford excepted). I'm all ears to who else is not trying or what toxicity is permeating this squad in lieu of us being better than we are. Players - like or loathe them - are not robots and will express disillusion even if they still go out and try to work with a poor construct. Both things can and do occur.
 
You're completely missing the point. Matic is highlighting a systemic problem in the squad, and whenever a disciplinarian comes in (Jose, Rangnick, ETH) they stop bothering. They leak they don't like the training methods and revolt.

This isn't a ten hag issue. This is a cultural problem. Ten hags failure to get us playing semi decent football isn't exclusive to ten hag. Any manager in that seat fecks up unless the culture changes. Ten hag himself said in one of the pressers that he was tasked with finally instilling proper discipline on the team. Of course with that comes the consequence of a fall out so I'm not really surprised by any leaks today.

There are very few players from the Mourinho era left, so unless this unprofessionalism is contagious and infects every new player signed as soon as they walk through the door then I don't know how that's possible.

Ten Hag came in and was given the majority of the players he wanted to sign and was allowed to get rid of most of the ones he wanted to leave. He's been able to drop/freeze out Rashford, Ronaldo, Garnacho, Varane and Sancho at various times and the club has backed him. But if we judge by results on the pitch his man management doesn't seem to be working, and his regular falling out with players is a bit concerning whoever is at fault.
 
I find it incredible that a persons response to being told to do better is to refuse to work. This is about character.

And it’s even more incredible that people then blame the players not doing their f*cking jobs on somebody else. I know it happens a lot in the sport but it’s crazy that “downing tools” is talked about like it’s a perfectly reasonable reaction. I mean it’s players basically not giving a f**k about their employers ( club and the fans), not even doing the basics in their job and fans defend them by focusing entirely on the manager.

I think a huge part of the issue is former footballers represent most of the pundits. And reporters rely on player interviews , so the focus on managers is an easy narrative to push and people buy it completely hook line and sinker.
 
I'm still not seeing this player power, nothing makes me think libdelof, Maguire, shaw, bissaka or dalot are trying get rid of the manager, same goes for eriksen, amrabat, casimero, Mount, mctominay, mainoo, bruno, hojlund, garnacho, Antony and pellestri.

That leaves possibly varane, rashford and martial.

It's made up rubbish to excuse ten hag failures

I was coming to say exactly the same thing- who are these players that people think have been leading a revolt..? You could see it when lingard and pogba were around but those three you mention are literally the only ones I can think of. If so then get them out and crack on.
 
It's not as simple as that though. You can just send half a dozen first-team players to the reserves, and the reason we know that is that no manager has ever done it. And Ten Hag has hardly shown a lack of balls dealing with big players, look at what he's done to Ronaldo, Sancho, Varane, etc. If anything I'd argue he's shown a lack of tact. I'm an organisational psychologist, and I can tell you from experience that a toxic culture is very difficult for one leader to overturn overnight.

The odd thing is though, as I and other posters have pointed out, is that he has no qualms about being very strict in relation to off the pitch issues. It's his tolerance of low standards, solely in relation to effort, on the pitch that is the biggest issue.

I understand its not easy to change a culture, but that's why we pay these managers millions. SAF and Wenger got rid of the boozy lad culture at United and Arsenal respectively. Klopp changed the 'likeable losers' culture at Liverpool and made them the hardest team to play against in World football. Even Pep had to change the culture at City. They'd won a few trophies but they still had that propensity for slackness and for chucking in the towel.

Rangnick said we needed "open heart surgery". What that means to me is, there is something wrong at the very core of the dressing room and it needs to be fixed. You don't fix that by releasing Phil Jones and selling James Garner. You do it by breaking up the senior group and replacing them. It should have started with Marcus Rashford. Why are we talking about his lack of effort again? He shouldn't have been given a 2nd or a 3rd chance to chuck the towel in.

There's a story about when Vince Lombardi took over at Green Bay Packers as a relatively unknown coach. His first act was to summon their star player, who had a reputation as a maverick, and to sack him on the spot.

If I was EtH I'd walk into Carrington tomorrow, tell Martial and Varane to clear out their lockers. I'd send Rashford to train with the u23s (see if he can remember what it means to fight for a career at the club you love). I'd tell Casemiro and his agent to find him a new club in January. I'd call Dalot into my office, make him sit and watch the Newcastle game in the Carabao + the Galatasary game at home, then I'd tell him to go and join Marcus in the u23s until further notice. Sancho's position wouldn't change, he's still transfer listed and banned from the club's facilities.

Sure, they'd be furious, but let them be. Who cares? Do you think Pellistri, Hannibal, Mainoo, Dan Gore, Joe Hugill, Amad etc...would have any sympathy for them whatsoever? They'd run themselves into the ground for the club and their careers. I don't care if we finished 15th, I can deal with that by bringing in players, proper characters, with more quality and experience in time.
 
what if what we're seeing is not the result of one or other, but a combined effect of both squad stacked with overpaid, unmotivated players not good enough for the level required AND a manager who isn't top class in every department, lacking both in tactical approach and man management skills?
 
Player power. What does that even mean? A manager has one job, that is to lead the team. If he fails at that, meaning that the majority of the squad is not listening and respecting him, he has failed at his job.
All human beings want someone they trust and respect in their leader. If they don’t trust him (EtH) they, the squad, will start to crumble. That is not “player power” that is a leadership model that doesn’t work.
 
The single most overstated issue by far. We've been hearing this about every manager but when you really look into it there isn't much evidence of players deliberately "downing tools" to sack the manager. Jose, Ole and others didn't just get sacked out of nowhere. Nor did they just suddenly start losing and playing badly. There were plently of instances of players putting in perfomances to keep us above water which gave manager more time. It's just that our football under ETH is so atrocious that all we've been able to to is to get some lucky wins and comebacks against bottom table teams.
 
For sure, I'm still adamant that Fergie told the press about Rooney "asking away" on his final day to set it up so Moyes could get rid of Rooney without much backlash. The fecking eejit and Woodward had other ideas though.
Yes, this happened. Fergie set it up for Moyes to get rid of Rooney as his first statement act but Moyes and/or Woodward decided against it. Standards slipped as soon as Fergie was out of the door, he always knew the right time to get rid of a player and instead we had many more years of Rooney stinking the place up with his "silent domination".
 
I think there has been a shift this time and the media are actively calling out big players like Rashford, Bruno etc.

It's been made so obvious that they're trying to throw another manager under the bus that it's backfired on them completely, and thw spotlight of scrutiny is shining firmly on them.

I would bet my house on a great performance vs Chelsea as they realise they've been rumbled and can't get away with performing like shite and blaming the manager.
 
Jesus, Old Trafford is worse than we thought if the manager can't even find the dressing room. Can't even afford to print out some arrows I bet either.
:lol:

Maybe the dressing room has crumbled away in "crumbling Old Trafford".
 
There are very few players from the Mourinho era left, so unless this unprofessionalism is contagious and infects every new player signed as soon as they walk through the door then I don't know how that's possible.

Ten Hag came in and was given the majority of the players he wanted to sign and was allowed to get rid of most of the ones he wanted to leave. He's been able to drop/freeze out Rashford, Ronaldo, Garnacho, Varane and Sancho at various times and the club has backed him. But if we judge by results on the pitch his man management doesn't seem to be working, and his regular falling out with players is a bit concerning whoever is at fault.
I dont think he froze out Garnacho, he just bedded him in gradually. Garnachos big break was under Ten Hag. And I don't think he's frozen out Rashford either, he's overplayed him if anything. Varane is interesting, Maguires recent form coupled with Varane constant injuries makes him less playable.

I think you can't objectively judge any manager that has a shit squad to deal with and a shit structure above them to help overhaul it. That's a general point not a Ten Hag one. A lot of "his" players have been injured in the crunch games, such as Eriksen casemiro Malacia Martinez.
 
If I was EtH I'd walk into Carrington tomorrow, tell Martial and Varane to clear out their lockers. I'd send Rashford to train with the u23s (see if he can remember what it means to fight for a career at the club you love). I'd tell Casemiro and his agent to find him a new club in January. I'd call Dalot into my office, make him sit and watch the Newcastle game in the Carabao + the Galatasary game at home, then I'd tell him to go and join Marcus in the u23s until further notice. Sancho's position wouldn't change, he's still transfer listed and banned from the club's facilities.

Sure, they'd be furious, but let them be. Who cares? Do you think Pellistri, Hannibal, Mainoo, Dan Gore, Joe Hugill, Amad etc...would have any sympathy for them whatsoever? They'd run themselves into the ground for the club and their careers. I don't care if we finished 15th, I can deal with that by bringing in players, proper characters, with more quality and experience in time.
That kind of approach is ridiculous and is a recipe for disaster. Alienate near enough your entire first team squad, to prove what? That just gets you sacked and even the players backing him might start to become disillusioned with such drastic actions. There's a reason managers will never do what you've suggested. Leaves you with worse squad, players low on morale, selling all these players you've annoyed becomes more difficult, clubs putting an even bigger premium on their players makes incoming transfers even more expensive and it likely puts off players from wanting to come to United too.
 
IF we sack ETH it would be a massive mistake. The players ( not all) are at fault here no doubt. It’s as clear as daylight.

It's not either/or. Changing the manager is a quick win, but it will take years to turn over this squad (if that's really necessary).

What are you all proposing? We stick with ETH for 5 or 6 years until he's signed a full new squad? Then what, just sack him anyway if it's still not fixed?