Player Power

[AndySmith1990]

IF we sack ETH it would be a massive mistake. The players ( not all) are at fault here no doubt. It’s as clear as daylight.

Why shouldn't we change both underperforming manager and underperforming players? Why does it have to be the fault of one or the other?

 

[justboy68]

The amount of deflection going on in the Newcastle post mortem is a reflection of where fans are at.

I asked, repeatedly, who had 'downed tools' in the ETH thread to no response. Martial is what he is; Rashford, the manager could have hooked at any time, or even not started if he was suspicious or expectant of a bad performance.

People are going out of their way to excuse, gloss over or wholly ignore dire tactics and personnel deployment that in and of itself is causing morale to drop. The players aren't shirking their duty (as above, please tell me who is doing that) outside of Rashford; all of them are trying, but if this were a race, how they are being deployed and strategically placed, has them set up 50m behind the starting line in a 100m race. We got blitzed in the last game because nothing was done to cater to the strengths of the most athletic and aggressive team in the entire league. In fact, we were set up to further exacerbate their strengths and our weaknesses, and no amount of pretending or ignoring that is the case makes it not so.

There might be a time to turn on the players, but this game isn't it. If the manager constantly leaves the midfield in complete disarray how can you be astonished when physical juggernauts say thank you very much, don't mind if we do come through and plunder?

If you are in that squad and see an 18yr old with two games under his belt being set up in a way he's facing an onslaught all game from the most powerful pair of midfielders in the league, do you just go back to the dressing room and act like nothing happened or do you start having doubts about why that was allowed to happen? If you're in a team where a wide player is left to his own devices whilst his FB is constantly fending off multiple players running off him, do you have more doubts and concerns about what's being coached and permitted to happen, or do you keep your resolve as high? Outwardly, things mightn't show, but inwardly doubts arise.

Even this thing about running hard and the whys and wherefores of doing so; if you're not being drilled with solid, cohesive patterns, it is mostly human nature to question why you're doing these things again and again. Collective pressing is precisely that, and it only takes one let alone two or three not pulling their weight or being in the correct positions for that hard running to look completely aimless and redundant. If the shape you initially set out with isn't right and obvious breaches keep occurring because of that, morale will slide and players will lose faith in the plan and execution.

Players like winning. Players like praise and adulation. Players also like to be in stronger positions for contract negotiations or moves away from the club. This notion they just give up on that at the drop of a hat is absurd, not least because this same group of players got to two finals and finished 3rd last season. Players also seek redemption over being turfed out, which is why the likes of Maguire hang on for dear life.

What people seem to be confusing for conspiracy is that these players, despite giving their best aren't good enough. With the best will in the world, most of them are maxxed out and need selling on those grounds, but further still, these tactics and deployments don't give them a prayer of bridging their shortcomings.

We don't have a particularly likeable squad and I've been all for a cull for a long time, even making threads along those lines, but the deflections going on since the Newcastle game, where somehow the manager has been absolved for a horrid game in every sense of the word, displays either little objective reasoning or extremely bad faith baying for blood to explain away what was a clear as day tactical mauling.

There's irony in the culture of toxicity being directed at the players when blindly backing what can clearly be seen as shocking management is the alternative. You can rightfully be sick of these players and want them gone whilst acknowledging how dire we are set up, and further, how badly the manager responds in-game whilst most managers we come up against look like tactical masterminds for being able to run straight through us or exploit the plethora of weaknesses this set up has. Mainoo is literally by himself in deep midfield for most of the game and it's not a talking point after it? What reality is this?

If the manager does his bit, we'll see which players aren't doing theirs, but as I said earlier, if they are out there trying in a shocking set up, why would they not in a functional one?

Right now it's a case of dire management and poor players, rather than players who are indifferent or not trying (Martial and Rashford excepted). I'm all ears to who else is not trying or what toxicity is permeating this squad in lieu of us being better than we are. Players - like or loathe them - are not robots and will express disillusion even if they still go out and try to work with a poor construct. Both things can and do occur.

This is such a spot on post mate. Agree with every single word. I

 

[mctrials23]

Why shouldn't we change both underperforming manager and underperforming players? Why does it have to be the fault of one or the other?

Its hard to do that because every new manager gets the bounce. The players magically find they can run, compete and do what they are told for 6-9 months. Then you plan based on that and the next season you find that nope, you do need another CB, RB, CM and wide forward because the ones you thought were good and the previous manager couldn't get a tune out of were in fact just waiting until they couldn't be bothered again.

The Rashford sage is an absolute microcosm of the clubs issues. Absolutely dogshit for a season or more and magically has a great season under a new manager. All the people who said to sell the sulky twat were ridiculed because Rashford was back. Just needed the right manager etc etc. Hows he doing this season? Struggling but putting in the work right? Of course he fecking isn't. Stropping his way about the pitch like he would rather be anywhere else while he collects his astronomical wages.

I have no idea if EtH is the right man for the job but if he isn't then we need a good plan for his replacement because these players will just rinse and repeat what they have done for years.

 

[Lee565]

Amrabat is on loan while the other two still have resale value and were replacing busted flushes in DDG and Sancho.

Antony and onana do not have resale value, ain't nobody touch these players for less than half the price we paid for them and then there's their wages that will be huge stumbling block as well.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Some won’t admit that it’s a problem because they’re still hoping one managerial change will fix everything. We have many problems and this is one of them.

 

[mctrials23]

The amount of deflection going on in the Newcastle post mortem is a reflection of where fans are at.

I asked, repeatedly, who had 'downed tools' in the ETH thread to no response. Martial is what he is; Rashford, the manager could have hooked at any time, or even not started if he was suspicious or expectant of a bad performance.

I agree with some of this but no, the players are not putting in a shift. They were playing against a threadbare Newcastle side that looked dead on its feet mid-week. We made them look fresh as a daisy. Desire and putting in a shift is winning 50:50s, tracking your man, paying attention to runners, busting a gut to be in the right place to do your job.

Ten Hag is not blameless in this at all but no, I completely disagree that the players are just not good enough but are working for him. They aren't. They aren't supporting each other in attack or defence. We have seen this exact same thing so many times over the past few years. The opposition overwhelming us in attack and then somehow overwhelming us defensively. Its as if we have 8 players on the pitch. Its not tactical, its effort levels.

As you said, last season we were in 2 finals, won 1 and came third in the league. We then strengthened the team.

Its a complicated issue because even last season we weren't great and Rashfords purple season saved us plenty of times but this season the players have fallen back into their old habits. Once the going gets tough, they fold.

 

[sugar_kane]

There are very few players from the Mourinho era left, so unless this unprofessionalism is contagious and infects every new player signed as soon as they walk through the door then I don't know how that's possible.

But this is exactly what happens in any workplace. I've seen it with my own eyes where I work. It's not instant (ie. as soon as someone walks through the door) but gradually the culture seeps in and hardens ready to pass onto the next batch of new employees. I've seen so many young people come into bad teams with a great attitude and end up turning just as bad themselves.

The interesting bit is how this happened at United in the first place (because it wasn't the case under Fergie) and how it can be fixed.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Player power and downing tools is very easy to spot.

A team that performs well under a manager and shows glimpses of quality and then all of a sudden looks like they’ve never been coached a day in their lives.

league winning teams like Chelsea and Leicester are prime examples. Conte , Jose and Ranieri winning leagues and the next season their teams fall apart. That’s nothing to do with coaching on a training pitch, that’s all the players.

We have seen glimpses of quality from United. I remember even under Ragnick, think it was his first game (palace) and I was shocked at seeing our players closing down opponent. They can do it, they choose not to.

Working hard is something anybody can do, regardless of quality. United squads for 11 years now have continually shown a lack of drive, particularly when the going has gotten tough.

The leaks to the press is self preserving cowardice. The ones doing it have no backbone and are doing nothing to help things. Those fans focused primarily on managers (it’s all they know it seems) are all to happy to have these toxic individuals undermine the manager for nothing but themselves.

 

[mctrials23]

But this is exactly what happens in any workplace. I've seen it with my own eyes where I work. It's not instant (ie. as soon as someone walks through the door) but gradually the culture seeps in and hardens ready to pass onto the next batch of new employees. I've seen so many young people come into bad teams with a great attitude and end up turning just as bad themselves.

The interesting bit is how this happened at United in the first place (because it wasn't the case under Fergie) and how it can be fixed.

Exactly. People underestimate workplace culture. Ex-United players have spoken about this in the past. How the senior players were responsible for setting the tone for the incoming players.

Its no different to any company other than the fact that footballers have contracts that pay them obscene money no matter how little effort they put in.

If the culture is lazy and toxic, there are few people that come into that environment and fight against the tide. Some do but they usually don't inspire others to do so, they just do their job and don't get involved in the shitty politics.

 

[DWelbz19]

Player power isn't a thing unique to United, it's just the reality of football. A manager has to manage the personalities in the squad as if any manager loses that trust it's curtains.

I think losing the entire squad is an indictment of the manager. Pep has had his fair share of issues at City, even two of his key players in Walker and Bernardo have had their own rumours of wanting to leave and not being happy with game time. Pep managed those players accordingly, shifted out some and won the confidence of those players back.

When shit gets bad, it's natural the players look to the manager to sort things out and if they lack faith, results dip as a result.

The likes of Varane and Casemiro have been model professionals at Madrid, seems both aren't too happy with ETH. I think rather than always looking at the perceived attitudes of players we have to focus on what the management team is doing to keep them motivated and confident.

Exactly. Ten Hag made some very big calls -- binning Ronaldo and De Gea; stripping Maguire of captaincy; banishing Sancho... -- I don't disagree with any of these, really (apart from maybe Maguire being club captain from the bench) but the simple fact is after making these massive decisions you have to keep things ticking on and playing well enough to keep the faith.

Second you lose that, it's over. Doesn't matter if it's at Manchester United or Wigan Athletic

 

[DWelbz19]

The amount of deflection going on in the Newcastle post mortem is a reflection of where fans are at.

I asked, repeatedly, who had 'downed tools' in the ETH thread to no response. Martial is what he is; Rashford, the manager could have hooked at any time, or even not started if he was suspicious or expectant of a bad performance.

People are going out of their way to excuse, gloss over or wholly ignore dire tactics and personnel deployment that in and of itself is causing morale to drop. The players aren't shirking their duty (as above, please tell me who is doing that) outside of Rashford; all of them are trying, but if this were a race, how they are being deployed and strategically placed, has them set up 50m behind the starting line in a 100m race. We got blitzed in the last game because nothing was done to cater to the strengths of the most athletic and aggressive team in the entire league. In fact, we were set up to further exacerbate their strengths and our weaknesses, and no amount of pretending or ignoring that is the case makes it not so.

There might be a time to turn on the players, but this game isn't it. If the manager constantly leaves the midfield in complete disarray how can you be astonished when physical juggernauts say thank you very much, don't mind if we do come through and plunder?

If you are in that squad and see an 18yr old with two games under his belt being set up in a way he's facing an onslaught all game from the most powerful pair of midfielders in the league, do you just go back to the dressing room and act like nothing happened or do you start having doubts about why that was allowed to happen? If you're in a team where a wide player is left to his own devices whilst his FB is constantly fending off multiple players running off him, do you have more doubts and concerns about what's being coached and permitted to happen, or do you keep your resolve as high? Outwardly, things mightn't show, but inwardly doubts arise.

Even this thing about running hard and the whys and wherefores of doing so; if you're not being drilled with solid, cohesive patterns, it is mostly human nature to question why you're doing these things again and again. Collective pressing is precisely that, and it only takes one let alone two or three not pulling their weight or being in the correct positions for that hard running to look completely aimless and redundant. If the shape you initially set out with isn't right and obvious breaches keep occurring because of that, morale will slide and players will lose faith in the plan and execution.

Players like winning. Players like praise and adulation. Players also like to be in stronger positions for contract negotiations or moves away from the club. This notion they just give up on that at the drop of a hat is absurd, not least because this same group of players got to two finals and finished 3rd last season. Players also seek redemption over being turfed out, which is why the likes of Maguire hang on for dear life.

What people seem to be confusing for conspiracy is that these players, despite giving their best aren't good enough. With the best will in the world, most of them are maxxed out and need selling on those grounds, but further still, these tactics and deployments don't give them a prayer of bridging their shortcomings.

We don't have a particularly likeable squad and I've been all for a cull for a long time, even making threads along those lines, but the deflections going on since the Newcastle game, where somehow the manager has been absolved for a horrid game in every sense of the word, displays either little objective reasoning or extremely bad faith baying for blood to explain away what was a clear as day tactical mauling.

There's irony in the culture of toxicity being directed at the players when blindly backing what can clearly be seen as shocking management is the alternative. You can rightfully be sick of these players and want them gone whilst acknowledging how dire we are set up, and further, how badly the manager responds in-game whilst most managers we come up against look like tactical masterminds for being able to run straight through us or exploit the plethora of weaknesses this set up has. Mainoo is literally by himself in deep midfield for most of the game and it's not a talking point after it? What reality is this?

If the manager does his bit, we'll see which players aren't doing theirs, but as I said earlier, if they are out there trying in a shocking set up, why would they not in a functional one?

Right now it's a case of dire management and poor players, rather than players who are indifferent or not trying (Martial and Rashford excepted). I'm all ears to who else is not trying or what toxicity is permeating this squad in lieu of us being better than we are. Players - like or loathe them - are not robots and will express disillusion even if they still go out and try to work with a poor construct. Both things can and do occur.

Very good post. Agree with all of that.

 

[ti vu]

Some won’t admit that it’s a problem because they’re still hoping one managerial change will fix everything. We have many problems and this is one of them.

Player power exists. It's difficult for one manager change to fix everything. However, unlike Ole and Mourinho where Woodward got in the way, ETH is empowered by the passive Arnold and Murtough to rid troublesome players. The issue is that ETH uses this power ineffectively. Rashford has become undroppable for him beside off the pitch discipline issue. He changed the whole style fo play this season because he feels indebted to Rashford last season? It now looks like every single players are bad apples for him. When it's like that, the manager himself is also a problem.

 

[Shinjch]

It's one thing when there is strong player power at a club who has a group of players who have shown themselves to be winners and pros. Total madness the power that has been afforded to a set of players at United who have achieved feck all squared for the club in their time here.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Player power exists. It's difficult for one manager change to fix everything. However, unlike Ole and Mourinho where Woodward got in the way, ETH is empowered by the passive Arnold and Murtough to rid troublesome players. The issue is that ETH uses this power ineffectively. Rashford has become undroppable for him beside off the pitch discipline issue. He changed the whole style fo play this season because he feels indebted to Rashford last season? It now looks like every single players are bad apples for him. When it's like that, the manager himself is also a problem.

So player power is a problem at Manchester United then?

 

[ti vu]

So player power is a problem at Manchester United then?

It is. The question is to what extend? IMO, not as it was under Ole, and under Mourinho, where Woodward pushed to extend players, when the managers clearly didn't need/ want them anymore: Rojo, Martial, Bailly to name a few.

ETH could chop Ronaldo, benched Maguire and took the armband off him and vast majority of the fan base support him. Some weird following was born to inflate ETH's pick to like championing Weghorst as if he's some kind of decent striker. After the previous culling, the player power should be under control if ETH man management is good. However, he created his own problem. He made Rashford undroppable. Started Martial. Dropped Varane, previously making Evans first choice. Who is to blame if not himself? Or you're saying the players pick themselves for the starting XI?

 

[tomaldinho1]

That’s because we’ve never had the correct structure in place which whether we’re successful on the pitch or not it appears Ratcliffe is going to put in place, for too long players knew they could throw a manager under the bus and he’d be sacked.

Having a Sporting Director like Paul Mitchell, a CEO like Blanc and a Director Of Performance like Brailsford above a head coach means that we shouldn’t have the same continuous problem, that group working with a Head Of Recruitment and Head Of Scouting would mean a proper team to not just look at the talent side of players but also the mental side and character side too.

I honestly think the structure part is overblown. What we need to focus on right now is the culture and it started with Woody - showcased by his embarrassing texts to players and trying to be pally with them, that's not a CEO's job - and has continued ever since. It has become a bit of a meme on here but the 'jobs for the boys' idea has a lot of truth to it and the club has had next to zero consistency when it comes to managers and how they are treated. There has been seemingly no discipline for a long time - Jose took on players and was canned, Ole just tried to keep everyone happy, Ragnick they literally took the piss out of, ETH they were happy with until it turns out you have to do a lot of running, now he can get lost.

Sort this part out and then look at the structure. We should not be signing any players for a while who are big names or cost a lot - we need to be more savvy, you can't change a culture overnight that has festered for 5+ years, it will be gradual but it starts and ends with backing the manager 100% even if you are planning to replace him at the end of the year. The players need to learn that a new manager coming in won't save them again, if they down tools the clubs simply speaks to their agent and asks them to start speaking to other clubs. It means a couple of years of news and more 'United are a circus' headlines but best to do it now in a much more aggressive way, than have it drag over the years as we've seen since SAF.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

It's one thing when there is strong player power at a club who has a group of players who have shown themselves to be winners and pros. Total madness the power that has been afforded to a set of players at United who have achieved feck all squared for the club in their time here.

Yeah. Could understand it when Moyes came in with his coaches that some were not happy, but this lot couldn't win a raffle.

 

[pacifictheme]

I genuinely think its why Fergie retired when he did, the writing was on the wall as they say.
He saw Rooney publicly criticise the clubs lack of ambition & then rumours of him looking to jump ship to City only to be rewarded with a big contract.

Think he saw the days of when you left United, your football career was never the same and you had to go abroad to one of the "Big 4" (Real, Barca, Bayern, Juve) slowly disappearing.
Once Chelsea/City were hot on the tails of United and could compete financially with them, he saw his power over players diminish.

Rooney was completely right about the clubs lack of ambition. See: everything that has happened since.

I don't think that's why fergie retired, he retired because he was old, had achieved everything he wanted to, didn't want to overhaul another squad and wanted to spend time with his family, and thank feck he did.

Other managers in the modern game don't have issues with player power, look at pep, klopp, ancelotti and most managers really. Howe has his players "running through brick walls" for him, as does Ange at spurs. Xavi doesn't seem to have any issues at Barca either.

 

[Fortitude]

I agree with some of this but no, the players are not putting in a shift. They were playing against a threadbare Newcastle side that looked dead on its feet mid-week. We made them look fresh as a daisy. Desire and putting in a shift is winning 50:50s, tracking your man, paying attention to runners, busting a gut to be in the right place to do your job.

Ten Hag is not blameless in this at all but no, I completely disagree that the players are just not good enough but are working for him. They aren't. They aren't supporting each other in attack or defence. We have seen this exact same thing so many times over the past few years. The opposition overwhelming us in attack and then somehow overwhelming us defensively. Its as if we have 8 players on the pitch. Its not tactical, its effort levels.

As you said, last season we were in 2 finals, won 1 and came third in the league. We then strengthened the team.

Its a complicated issue because even last season we weren't great and Rashfords purple season saved us plenty of times but this season the players have fallen back into their old habits. Once the going gets tough, they fold.

You are not acknowledging that to match runners and contest against a far superior set of athletes, you have to be deployed in the right places tactically in the first place. All this heart and bluster doesn’t even ensure we would win in a 50/50 contest because they are superior athletes by a distance, so when you’re set up incorrectly it becomes a 70/30 because not only are physically outmatched, you’re not even in the correct positions initially to set up any kind of redress. I have actually found it fascinating to see how not a single thread was made highlighting how badly Mainoo was let down and left out at sea with what he was tasked to do. I don’t know how far back in terms of defensive colossus standing one should go before finding a single pivot skilled and physically equipped enough to handle two physical powerhouses swarming him all game. It would be comical if not so tragic, but that has been swept under the rug like it shouldn’t be the crux of post-game discussion.

To run hard has no value in isolation. In fact, it can be used against you as holes are left wherever you have abandoned; to collectively press you need to be set up correctly; at that point you will see exactly who is not prepared to put in a shift. Running around aimlessly or even tracking runners by yourself is folly because you can be used as the decoy run, which is another tactical flaw in how we are set up. There is no way at all the tactical set up does not come under intense scrutiny before layer tracing the pieces (players) on top - it literally has to work in harmony or there is no point. The position map meme is how we always play this season. People who were talking up the run of form were told that the points accrued were not a measure of where we were at and that better teams than the ones we were struggling to get those points off of would be the litmus test. People genuinely seem to be shocked that we are as bad as Newcastle made us look, so shocked even that they have decided that the same team that was just being lauded for the run of game, must be the culprit as they have decided all of a sudden that they don’t want to play anymore. Makes perfect logical sense. I am trying to determine whether it’s cognitive dissonance or bad faith discussion that the same people talking up the team two games ago have turned around and blamed them for the routing we were on the end of on Saturday.

You cannot refer to the exploits of last season without acknowledging we actually set up with a midfield then and gave the team the chance to get a footing in the game. We didn’t look particularly great, but we didn’t look like a sieve either. Only two of the worst sides to have ever been promoted have had more shots against them than us this entire season, so have the players been playing with a tool belt on all season, or is something emphatically wrong with how we are set up this term as opposed to last?

your last sentence says that once the going gets tough the players fold. Has it not occurred to you that now we’re playing better teams, weak tactical plans and personnel deployment is there for the taking? I would think it’s rather rudimentary that the best CM in the league backed by a powerful, aggressive and willing runner in Joelinton would run us over hot coals in the same set up where far inferior teams can’t capitalise. We have a run of games coming up where not playing with a midfield is downright suicidal and it doesn’t take elite prescience to conclude that our team will be accused of downing tools again and again in lieu of acknowledging a poor setup backed by players who are not good enough in the first place cannot produce even a fighting performance. You mightn’t be able to set up a side to win, but you can certainly set up a side to lose, or better to say, be sent out delimited before a ball has even been kicked. We did not do that last season, hence we battled along and achieved what we did, but this season, it’s the only thing we are doing and the results and perfomances will fall in line with that.

 

[yumtum]

I think Ten Hag should leave, I was all for his signing, and truly believed he would be good for us if most of the players left the same window.

Turns out we've left most of the rotten apples in the squad and it's spoiled Ten Hag too, now he's too far gone to salvage, that coupled with the fact he was allowed to have a major say in transfers, something he was never good at means he's he's an abject failure.

That being said, is it normal for supporters to despise most of the players that represent their club? I genuinely can't stand the sight of the majority of our players, they've been phoning it in for a decade, they've even given up on their media apologies.

I'd genuinely take relegation if it meant these w*nkers buggered off, this club needs a hard, hard reset, unfortunately getting 25% of a new owner isn't the hard rest this club needs, reckon we'll eclipse the length it took Liverpool to end their PL drought.

 

[VP89]

I think Ten Hag should leave, I was all for his signing, and truly believed he would be good for us if most of the players left the same window.

Turns out we've left most of the rotten apples in the squad and it's spoiled Ten Hag too, now he's too far gone to salvage, that coupled with the fact he was allowed to have a major say in transfers, something he was never good at means he's he's an abject failure.

That being said, is it normal for supporters to despise most of the players that represent their club? I genuinely can't stand the sight of the majority of our players, they've been phoning it in for a decade, they've even given up on their media apologies.

I'd genuinely take relegation if it meant these w*nkers buggered off, this club needs a hard, hard reset, unfortunately getting 25% of a new owner isn't the hard rest this club needs, reckon we'll eclipse the length it took Liverpool to end their PL drought.

So you think ten hag should leave because the squad is shit and he had too much of a say on transfers?

To me the failure is more down to the DoF than it is on him. Upheaval and structure is on them.

 

[fallengt]

Why shouldn't we change both underperforming manager and underperforming players? Why does it have to be the fault of one or the other?

New manager always wants to give players clean plate then he's too late to realize they'll throw him under the bus?
That scenario happened several times already. Why else do you think Mctomminay still playing for United

 

[joedirt87]

If ETH gets sacked we will also go back to a player manager to coddle these players.

 

[sugar_kane]

If I'm to make sense of how this player power culture evolved at United I'd point to the Mourinho-Solskjaer era as the starting point.

There were clearly issues with Moyes, and lots of stories about players moaning about Van Gaal's methods but from reading back on articles going in depth into their sackings it's clear both lost their jobs due to the club being unhappy with them rather than players throwing them under the bus. Van Gaal in particular seemed like a popular guy despite his eccentricities and it sounds like a lot of the players were gutted when he was sacked.

Mourinho fared well for a while with his authoritarian approach and his natural charisma and gravitas, but the club completely fecked him and themselves over when they took Pogba's (and by extension, the squad's) side against him. This set the tone.

Then Solskjaer came into a group demoralised by the sourness that had developed under Mourinho, but emboldened in their own status vs. the manager.

For a while things were fine as he was a manager they could get on with but by all accounts he was too soft on them. Thus you had a group who had beaten the authoritarian, then governed by the guy who just wanted to be everyone's mate and keep people happy for three seasons - no wonder this culture evolved.

Then you had Rangnick who was pointless and no-one respected (partly due to his interim position, but also because he regularly spoke out in public against the squad) just to add a bit of extra insubordination and stagnation in attitude into the mix.

 

[Loon]

Replacing them with the likes of Antony, Onana, Amrabat? Is this progress? The players that ETH brought here are worse than the players they are replacing, and they have 4-5 year contracts.

Which is why I said recruitment team. Also, nothing to say these players can’t be moved on if better comes in as other teams have done.

 

[Loon]

to be honest this is a genuine worry, even if I thought he could still turn it around, I don’t trust the Bloke to be given a shit ton of cash again.

What about with a newly installed recruitment team?

 

[Loon]

Guardiola had the financial backing to bin off his duff purchases (even with a recruitment team behind him). The multiple full backs and was it him or Chelsea that binned off the keepers they bought? Liverpool certainly did.

 

[Von Mistelroum]

As I've said before, I do wonder if it's time EtH moved on, as he seems lost at times and makes bizarre substitutions. Playing the players who consistently refuse to work hard and not really showing a style of play.

However, I find the actual idea of him leaving very concerning because it will once again show these lazy and entitled players that they can outlast any manager who asks them to work hard. That they will be rewarded for their refusal to adapt, and the new manager is likely to be selected to help these pathetic primadonna's, so will probably get a short boost while they go back to trying, but ultimately will be terrible because it'll still the same lazy and entitled players who buckle at the first sign of a challenge.

 

[yumtum]

So you think ten hag should leave because the squad is shit and he had too much of a say on transfers?

To me the failure is more down to the DoF than it is on him. Upheaval and structure is on them.

Yes? Do you think the next lot of players will respect a manager who is constantly losing and can't assess players?

He was given an impossible job, it's no surprising he failed after being made to work with the dross that's infected this club, but to task him with buying players when it was known by everyone that he couldn't buy well at his previous clubs too was just the icing on the cake.

I'd be very surprised if he could turn this around, and I doubt he really wants to as it was rumoured that he wanted greater control of transfers, he's likely won't want to accept the fact he shouldn't be in control of our funds moving forward.

 

[VP89]

Yes? Do you think the next lot of players will respect a manager who is constantly losing and can't assess players?

He was given an impossible job, it's no surprising he failed after being made to work with the dross that's infected this club, but to task him with buying players when it was known by everyone that he couldn't buy well at his previous clubs too was just the icing on the cake.

I'd be very surprised if he could turn this around, and I doubt he really wants to as it was rumoured that he wanted greater control of transfers, he's likely won't want to accept the fact he shouldn't be in control of our funds moving forward.

Sacking a manager and letting player power in will set us back another decade. The way to stop this trend is to back him, let the shit players be systematically turfed out and changing the culture. That will take years and I don't give a feck how far we fall in the interim.

 

[Judas]

What about with a newly installed recruitment team?

I’d have a bit more hope, he just clearly needs to be reigned in.

 

[Lee565]

Why is there always a section of our fans that think every manager post fergie is the second coming of pep/fergie and that is all the player's fault even though history has clearly shown that none of the managers post fergie that have been sacked have gone on to make us regret sacking them, ole can't find a job, moyes is back to managing mid table sides, mourinho is struggling to even make top 4 with spurs and roma, lvg went back to international football before retiring, honestly I would not be surprised if you don't see any meaningful top European or Premier league side queue up to recruit ten hag if he gets the sack and will likely just go back to the Dutch league

 

[yumtum]

Sacking a manager and letting player power in will set us back another decade. The way to stop this trend is to back him, let the shit players be systematically turfed out and changing the culture. That will take years and I don't give a feck how far we fall in the interim.

Oh I definitely think the players should go too, before the manager, but the manager has got his own duds that need shifting too.

Like I said, I despise 95% of the playing staff, and I wouldn't miss any "first team" player, we just need to buy using detailed scouting reports (of their ability and character).

 

[Loon]

So you think ten hag should leave because the squad is shit and he had too much of a say on transfers?

To me the failure is more down to the DoF than it is on him. Upheaval and structure is on them.

Even Guardiola and Klopp bought duds with the backing of a recruitment team. It happens. They moved them on and kept searching until they found better. We’d love every player to come in anew tear up trees, but there are no guarantees.

I think we are all so desperate to see every new signing instantly work because it is so shit on the pitch at the moment.

 

[M Bison]

I'd accept finishing bottom half if it meant we got to the bottom of and removed all leaks and bad apples from the club. Its a disgrace those players running to their mates in the media to tell tales, we talk about weak mentality, that sums it up for me. Get rid of them all and start again, if 50% of the dressing room has turned on the manager, then they should all leave, they'll turn on the next manager and the one after that so there's no point in them being here to start with. I cant believe those players can sleep at night and call themselves professionals. Jokers, the lot of them.

 

[Born2Lose]

The rot set in when SAF left, and Moyes moronically compounded the vacuum by getting rid of a successful coaching team to bring in his own.

"It's not something to go to the barricades over (the chips). But all the lads were p****d off,” said Ferdinand. “And guess what happened after Moyes left and Ryan Giggs took over?

"Moyes has been gone about 20 minutes, we're on the bikes warming up for the first training session and one of the lads says: 'You know what? We've got to get on to Giggsy. We've got to get him to get us our f*****g chips back.'”

Rio Ferdinand: 'David Moyes p****d off the lads by taking away our chips' claims former Manchester United defender

 

[DJ_21]

This is a massive thing at this club! We’re letting players get their own way… they’re unhappy because they don’t like a managers style of play or training methods! Get over it. If that’s anyone in normal jobs then they’ll get fired for not doing their job properly. We can’t keep letting players rule. We can’t keep sacking managers and then rewarding players with new contracts. It’s ridiculous.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

I don't understand why this happens in Man Utd only, not in any other EPL clubs, not in Real Madrid, Barcelona, or Bayern. The closest example is probably PSG with Mbappe.

 

[stefan92]

I don't understand why this happens in Man Utd only, not in any other EPL clubs, not in Real Madrid, Barcelona, or Bayern. The closest example is probably PSG with Mbappe.

Every manager who benches Thomas Müller has to be very careful to manage that situation or else he is gone. Bayern's players got rid of Ancelotti because they thought he let the standards at the club slip and the smoking fitness coach he had in this staff set a bad example. Player power is absolutely a thing at other clubs as well, the difference is that usually the power is with players who are driven by more success. You don't get that feeling from these players United has.

 

[Beachryan]

Only thing that confuses me is who these 'sources' are leaking to the British press. I simply refuse to believe it's any of ETH's signings, they seem to run through walls for the guy. Plus, other than Mount, none are English.

Maguire's getting lovely press right now, can't imagine he'd be saying anything. McTominay should feel like he won some kind of lottery to be getting the minutes he is. So who is left?

I could 100% see Rashford's 'camp' trying to deflect from the dumpster fire that is his form. Obviously Sancho's 'camp' too, but any journalist using that is pretty f*cking stupid given he's not even at training.

The only outlier in this whole thing for me is Varane. I'd 100% be keeping him key in the dressing room, the man is proven winner, and I don't understand what ETH is doing there.