Player’s You Don’t Rate As Highly As Others

[MadDogg]

So Luis Figo used to get hyped as an world class legend on an worldwide level but I used to question whether he was really much better or even better at all than our players at the time (Beckham, Scholes and Giggs)

I'd say he was better than Beckham overall, but Becks had a couple of seasons where he was better. They were definitely up there as the top two in their position though. Comparing him to Giggs is difficult as I'd say Figo was probably better for the middle 5-6 seasons of their careers, but Giggs was better before that and again after that.

Yeah way better is maybe saying it too far cause they are both great players. I think carrick was a better player in most ways though and often critical for our sucess. It is really only under Moyes Carrick looked poor. Of course they had different roles and might funny enough made a great pair or a great trio if you add Scholes.

I thought that about Carrick and Pogba too, but at that age for Carrick he could not do the same work anymore. Still I liked Carrick-Pogba-Herrera midfield as an idea and we got it with Matic instead of Carrick eventually.

From reading your other posts I get the feeling you are rating Keane purely on his last few years here, after his hip operation. If you were to say that Carrick was better than that version of Keane you might be able to win that argument. But Keane pre-injury was a force of nature, probably the best midfielder in the PL era. The fact that even after the injury he was still going toe to toe with the likes of Vieira and Gerrard and coming out on top says it all.

 

[Ali Dia]

XI: Casilias, Ramos, Terry, Puyol, Kompany, Busquets, Keane, Lampard, Kaka, Henry, Eto'o.

Bench: Van Der Sar, Van Dijk, Carrick, Nedved, Ronaldinho, Bergkamp, Van Nistelrooy.

I'm gobsmacked.

hahaha would seriously be a decent shout for the best team of the last 30 years.

Jordan Henderson

So fortunate to be with the perfect manager for his skillset - running.

Big time. Massively overrated.

 

[snk123]

Big time. Massively overrated.

Is Jordan Henderson really rated by many? I always thought everyone knows he's an average player playing behind great players.

 

[carvajal]

Fernando Redondo - he was all the rave when I was in school because he skinned Henning Berg once. People also only ever reference that one moment when talking about him.

This thread has gone too far. I was about to faint after reading this

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

I'd say he was better than Beckham overall, but Becks had a couple of seasons where he was better. They were definitely up there as the top two in their position though. Comparing him to Giggs is difficult as I'd say Figo was probably better for the middle 5-6 seasons of their careers, but Giggs was better before that and again after that.


From reading your other posts I get the feeling you are rating Keane purely on his last few years here, after his hip operation. If you were to say that Carrick was better than that version of Keane you might be able to win that argument. But Keane pre-injury was a force of nature, probably the best midfielder in the PL era.

Well true I started watching us in my young years in the middle of his era and Scholes almost always impressed me way more.
Although his passion and leadership is something that you might have to experience live to really feel and me in my young year might not have looked for those qualities when watching so much.. I like his type of player to be fair these days. Similar to Fletcher, Mctominay etc and players like Gortezka, Henderson etc from other clubs.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Reading this again - it is such an awful, awful post. So contradictory.

- Martial's bottom level is because of his laziness - not because of his technique. Lukaku's bottom level is because of his technique.
- Martial is almost exactly like Berbatov in the sense that he has amazing technique but not the mentality and aggression.
- Tevez was a workhorse - even on his worst days, he ran like a headless chicken and gave his all.

So you've combined three extremely different players together and separated Berbatov. It just doesn't make any sense.

You've just proved that work rate causes extreme bias and overrating of him. Martial is probably having the worst season of his career and is still only one goal shy of his second season with us. The numbers don't lie, I don't care about style because a striker's job is to score goals. Berbatov just happens to have both.

 

[GatoLoco]

XI: Casilias, Ramos, Terry, Puyol, Kompany, Busquets, Keane, Lampard, Kaka, Henry, Eto'o.

Bench: Van Der Sar, Van Dijk, Carrick, Nedved, Ronaldinho, Bergkamp, Van Nistelrooy.

I'm gobsmacked.

 

[Rozay]

I’ll add another - Roberto Carlos.

Career defined by one special moment, one fluked one, and a lifetime of trying to recreate it.

 

[Jeppers7]

The thing with Carrick is that he is, as you do here, normally compared to deep-lying playmakers. But almost every other DLP out there needs to play next to another defensive midfielder. He was good enough to play as the main defensive midfielder himself against most opposition, allowing us to play two DLP's together with him and Scholes. As such he really should be compared to the main DM in other teams, in which case he provided more on the ball than almost any. Busquets is really the only other one who was able to do that same job.


But then this is going way too far the other way. Keane was the most important and arguably the best player in his team, and perhaps the league. Carrick, as good as he was, certainly wasn't at that level.

No worries, to simplify it...in my opinion whatever he was, he wasnt a great player.

 

[giorno]

I gotta say I saw you say Eto and almost deleted my account.

Understandable reaction to be fair

 

[Grylte]

Going to be a very unpopular opinion, but i can't decide who i was more happy we sold of Nani and Fellaini.
Nani is the single most frustrating player we've had in my lifetime, and those glimpses of magic he produced once in a while, was overshadowed by tons of wrong choices in every match, and is why Rooney was always yelling at him.

So i definitely don't rate him as highly as most on here.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

No worries, to simplify it...in my opinion whatever he was, he wasnt a great player.

Yeah different opinions though. I think you can win with many styles, tactics and player types.
Which one is most effective depend on the manager and how well you perform as a team.

Most team players get different rated due to different views on how to build a team and what is needed.

 

[Steve Bruce]

Coutinho

 

[giorno]

Fernando Redondo - he was all the rave when I was in school because he skinned Henning Berg once. People also only ever reference that one moment when talking about him.

I’ll add another - Roberto Carlos.

Career defined by one special moment, one fluked one, and a lifetime of trying to recreate it.

Shut this thread down

 

[Sayros]

You've just proved that work rate causes extreme bias and overrating of him. Martial is probably having the worst season of his career and is still only one goal shy of his second season with us. The numbers don't lie, I don't care about style because a striker's job is to score goals. Berbatov just happens to have both.

His second season was terrible though.

 

[mu4c_20le]

His second season was terrible though.

I meant Tevez's, which was atrocious, yes. He suddenly looked clueless in front of goal. He scored 5 goals in the league, and most of them came near the end of the season. If one were to be cynical, they could suggest that he was playing for a contract then.

 

[GatoLoco]

Fernando Redondo - he was all the rave when I was in school because he skinned Henning Berg once. People also only ever reference that one moment when talking about him.

Oh, bad choice there. You should have made friends with those other people collecting his Argentinos Juniors games in videotapes. You would be way cooler now.

 

[Rozay]

Shut this thread down

Carlos was just a Brazilian Kyle Walker. In a Panini sticker era where most people saw less week to week performances, players are often summarised into a highlights package.

For a ‘defender’ - Carlos was flashy. Eye-catching. He was incredibly fast, and kicked the ball incredibly hard. Often when he kicked it though, it didn’t go anywhere. He spent his career dining out off one goal, repeatedly smashing free-kicks from 40 yards into the wall, row Z or anywhere else. When he went forward, I don’t really remember him doing much at all. He was just busy and noticeable. But not graceful, not a great defender either.

Marcelo was twice the player, as was Dani Alves.

 

[Rossa]

Just casually picking Carrick over Kevin De Bruyne, Toni Kroos etc.

Considering we have Bruno and Pogba in de Bryune’s position, it isn’t that outragous. Kroos is better though, but not quite the same type of perhaps?

 

[Bertie Wooster]

Guti.

Seriously what was he good at?

@carvajal @giorno

Guti was a brilliant passer of the ball and one of the best creative passers that I've ever seen. His vision and passing ability was amazing. Some of his assists are a joy to watch - how he frequently glided the ball along the ground through a group of defenders was a real work of art.

He's one of the most underrated players imo, not overrated. 500+ games for Real Madrid, in various different groups of 'Galacticos', and 3 CL victories, and yet never really gets a mention amongst Real players of that era. It's like people ignoring Scholes and Carrick in United discussions.

 

[GatoLoco]

Carlos was just a Brazilian Kyle Walker. In a Panini sticker era where most people saw less week to week performances, players are often summarised into a highlights package.

For a ‘defender’ - Carlos was flashy. Eye-catching. He was incredibly fast, and kicked the ball incredibly hard. Often when he kicked it though, it didn’t go anywhere. He spent his career dining out off one goal, repeatedly smashing free-kicks from 40 yards into the wall, row Z or anywhere else. When he went forward, I don’t really remember him doing much at all. He was just busy and noticeable. But not graceful, not a great defender either.

Marcelo was twice the player, as was Dani Alves.

@giorno is probably having a stroke right now.

 

[Rozay]

Guti.

Seriously what was he good at?

@carvajal @giorno

Guti was a great talent. His final pass was outrageous. As good as Ozil’s.

 

[Bubz27]

Eto'o was an important player in 2 consecutive trebles iirc.

 

[slored1]

MBappe. Rashford has more to his game and would get the same numbers in Ligue 1.

Sterling. Not a natural footballer.

Kompany. Continually made mistakes to his head went in big fixtures. Not saying he wasn't good, he wasn't great. Just not amazing like some people harp on about. Like Vidic really (Torres).

Rashford might be my favourite player ever, but this is lunacy. No way is he on the same level as Mbappe.

 

[tjb]

Cannavaro and Modric for identical reasons. Both won Ballon Doors on thee back of people needing to award team world cup successes despite have players in their positions and on their teams who could be said to have played better or were generally deemed better players prior to those tournaments. For cannavaro, Nesta was better, won the serie a best defender awards almost uncontested for years. Yet some think cannavaro was better off thag world cup.

For modric, he took the credit off a really team oriented creation team, where I thought periodic was their biggest threat. I think kroos was better prior to the tournament and has been better since. Yet post world cup Madrid has been viewed in a better light to him.

 

[led_scholes]

Big fish, small pond. Martial shouldn't be judged on his second or current season either as he's been with us for 6 years, nor is he useless, but definitely not as highly rated.

Tevez also lead Juve to a CL final.

 

[giorno]

@giorno is probably having a stroke right now.

Words fail me

 

[Tomuś]

Always thought his performance against us in the first leg was overrated as hell. I remember people were creaming themselves over the second goal when he did the sombrero skill. I mean its neat but it wasn't even the skill that created the goal, it was the dumb mistake by Evra.

Yeah, I think we lost the tie to a wonderful collective performance from them, not Kaka carrying them.

 

[Sandikan]

From historical players I think Keane and Ruud are the most overrated. The fact we got way better without them says a lot.
They both have great stats, but for the overall team they are not amazing.
For me Carrick is way better than Keane and the results show that as well.
Tevez and Rooney for all the flaws better than Ruud.

I also think Cantona is overhyped, but he did lift the club a bit like Bruno. Thus you can understand he gets overrated.

This has got to be one of the all time maddest posts on redcafe.

Bloody hell

What results show Carrick was better than Keane out of interest?
We haven't come close to replacing Keane since.

 

[Sandikan]

What about Paul Gascoigne always being hyped up as England’s greatest ever talent but I never really saw it, good player that scored some good goals and flicks n’ stuff, but was he really a world class midfielder?

If you watched football around 1990 you wouldn't post this.
If you watched it around 1996 on, I can understand it.

 

[Sandikan]

We got “way better” without Keane? I know this is a thread of opinions but that’s a pretty nonsense one! We won a treble with Keane as our captain and the double twice!

RvN I can go along with. I don’t agree but I can see the argument

I think the guy either didn't watch football back then, or only goes off stats or some weird nonsense.
Maybe fantasy football stats or something, where Keane wouldn't figure well.

 

[Sandikan]

Way better was extreme to say overall, but we struggled the last years before we got Carrick. Keane 99 was strong with the rest and he is a legend.
I think I have always rated Scholes, Fletcher and Carrick more though.
With them and Anderson we really had 4 years being best in the world with only Barca being close once they got Pep.

As for Ruud I liked him, but feel the forwards after him gave us another level particular in Europe.

With Cantona he is before my time, but his stats are not that impressive and he did little at the biggest stage. His highlight though are legendary for good or bad. He got a big personality, but just like with Ibra he lacks the biggest titles to be mentioned with the very best.

How can you declare someone overrated when they were before your time you donut

Stats aren't everything!

 

[Sandikan]

Carrick better than Keane? Yeah Carrick is massively overrated.

Keane was the best player in a brilliant team that won the treble. Captain and leader too. He dictated and decided the tempo of the game and for three seasons he was never less than superb every week. I wouldn’t disagree that it was the right time to let Keane go, his hip operation restricted him massively he couldn’t get around the pitch anymore. That being said we improved because VDS Evra Vidic Rooney Ronaldo Tevez.

Carrick was a fortunate decent player who happened to play in a team full of world class players. Can anyone imagine Keane not being able to get a game for England over Gareth Barry like Carrick?

Yeah but Keane's stats weren't as good

 

[::sonny::]

Benzema

 

[Sandikan]

If anyone thinks Carrick was better than Keane then they're either massively overrating Carrick or massively underrating Keane.

Would agree with the VDS shout, to an extent. He was generally an excellent keeper and is rightly seen as such. However, you sometimes see posters say things like "he never made mistakes and was always so assured", which just isn't true. He made his share of mistakes for us but they get forgotten when you're in an excellent side that can bail you out when they do happen. He also could/should have done better for goals in all three CL finals he played for us and made another high-profile error in the 1996 CL final with Ajax. Add in a slew of other errors that saw him depart Juve for Fulham (including a crucial error against Lazio that ultimately cost Juve the title). All of which is sometimes ignored by United fans when assessing him as a goalkeeper.

No-one who watched both could possibly do so.
Having seen the poster declare Cantona overrated, yet "before" his time, I can only imagine it's similar for Keane.
Or he works off a weird sort of stats based analysis.

The sort of stats that probably made Jenas look the best in the world.

 

[Lay]

You've just proved that work rate causes extreme bias and overrating of him. Martial is probably having the worst season of his career and is still only one goal shy of his second season with us. The numbers don't lie, I don't care about style because a striker's job is to score goals. Berbatov just happens to have both.

I don’t think Berbatov was that good here. He was too slow for us despite moments of brilliance. Not a flop, but underwhelming

 

[Zen]

Carlos was just a Brazilian Kyle Walker. In a Panini sticker era where most people saw less week to week performances, players are often summarised into a highlights package.

For a ‘defender’ - Carlos was flashy. Eye-catching. He was incredibly fast, and kicked the ball incredibly hard. Often when he kicked it though, it didn’t go anywhere. He spent his career dining out off one goal, repeatedly smashing free-kicks from 40 yards into the wall, row Z or anywhere else. When he went forward, I don’t really remember him doing much at all. He was just busy and noticeable. But not graceful, not a great defender either.

Marcelo was twice the player, as was Dani Alves.

At this point, I kind wish Carlos didn't do that free kick. I'm not advocating for or against him, but it defines him so much to the point where people forget what he did bring to the table, and in systems, that mostly didn't have the defensive structure to protect him.... when teams randomly reverted to a flat 4 at the back, or just wanted to shoehorn attacking talent in, it handcuffed not only, but Cafu... Cafu happened to play most of his club career in better defensive units.

I mean look what's happened to Liverpool's fullbacks without the stability from the middle that was there last year.

 

[FeedTheGoat]

Sergio Aguero.

Blasphemy

Phillipe Coutinho at Liverpool is the one that sticks out. Most people had him down as some world-beater and a world-class attacking midfielder. Always argued with Liverpool supporting mates that thought he was better than Silva which was ridiculous. All I saw Coutinho as was a relatively neat and tidy, very ineffective playmaker that spent most of his minutes on a pitch trying to score from outside the box. Succeeding maybe 5 or 6 times a season. Been a nothing player since, and most have come around to him not being anything special after his failed move but we should not forget how hyped he was.

Mata was another one that at Chelsea got the "better than Silva" treatment, but at least he was very effective for a season or 2.

Controversial opinion might be Zidane. Obviously a fantastic player and an artist in every sense of the word but think he has been outperformed by countless players in similiar positions both before and after his time

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Reading this again - it is such an awful, awful post. So contradictory.

- Martial's bottom level is because of his laziness - not because of his technique. Lukaku's bottom level is because of his technique.
- Martial is almost exactly like Berbatov in the sense that he has amazing technique but not the mentality and aggression.
- Tevez was a workhorse - even on his worst days, he ran like a headless chicken and gave his all.

So you've combined three extremely different players together and separated Berbatov. It just doesn't make any sense.

Martial doesn’t have amazing technique. He had potential aged 18/19 - but I’ve seen nothing to suggest he has anywhere near the technique of Berbatov - the man could do anything with a football, Martial cannot. That doesn’t mean Martial is a bad player because of this, but in no way does he have “amazing technique”.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I think the guy either didn't watch football back then, or only goes off stats or some weird nonsense.
Maybe fantasy football stats or something, where Keane wouldn't figure well.

prob watched Keane at Celtic or something.

would to know how stats can measure leadership and influence.