Really bad for Jones to get injured again, but I think we should be sorted decently in defence even without him. As Eyepopper said, this might actually give Rafael an extended run at RB. Something that is about time imo, the RB position has been rotated way too much since O'Shea left.
Phil Jones
- Thread starter Baby Faced Assassin
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
Whens he back?
Half of November, from what I remember.
"Phil Jones has been training all week. We will take him to Turkey [to play Galatasaray in the Champions League] with us. He’ll get part of it there, which is a good start for him."
Fantastic news 
That solves who'll start at RB in midweek then.
Great news!
But this reopens the question as to what his ideal position is. Right fullback? Centerback? Holding mid?
I have no idea and I suspect Fergie doesn't either. Smalling and Evans are the long term answer (though I have my doubts about Evans) at CB. Rafael is a sensation at RB. But does Phil has the right stuff to be a midfielder?
But this reopens the question as to what his ideal position is. Right fullback? Centerback? Holding mid?
I have no idea and I suspect Fergie doesn't either. Smalling and Evans are the long term answer (though I have my doubts about Evans) at CB. Rafael is a sensation at RB. But does Phil has the right stuff to be a midfielder?
Holding mid or centre back until he matures imo
He's a CB. He definitely does have the talent to play there, and doesn't have the skill-set to play anywhere else as a serious option. Evans and Smalling are ahead of him but it's really not a problem, we should always have at least three top CBs in the team what with our injury record in that area. Much the same way we have Ferdinand, Vidic and Evans at the moment.
In 2-3 years he and Smalling will be first choice centre half pairing for United and England.
He'll end up in centre mid, think he'll be a revelation there with a few more years experience. His technical skills need to improve but he's only 20 so has plenty of time. The facets of his game that make make him such a great prospect are a liability in defence.
But he barely shows any of the skills required to play there? It's like claiming that Rafael will end up as a striker because he can shoot fairly well.
How is it anything like that? Did you not understand what I wrote? He currently isn't suited to playing centre back, he is a liability when he plays there. Positionally he's awful, he gets attracted to the ball and can't keep a line. I'm a huge Jones fan, but he's one of the least natural centre back I've ever seen.
It's like claiming he'll be a centre back because he can tackle.
He has shown attributes suited to play in midfield. His mentality, aggression, work rate, tackling are all perfectly suited to being a ball winner in midfield. He's also shown he can get forward and affect the game offensively.
Our David Luiz. Good footballer, but a bit of a nutter that can't be trusted at centreback yet.
2nd choice right back or centre midfield when we need a physical presence in there until he matures a little, in my opinion.
2nd choice right back or centre midfield when we need a physical presence in there until he matures a little, in my opinion.
I disagree. I think Evans will be a monster by then. He's only 24 now and has been playing at a high level for 5 years learning from two of the best centrebacks to play the game.
Jones is a huge talent but we either need to accept him as a jack of all trades or he needs to master one and get past some quality players at the same time.
Rafael is developing into a world class right back.
Smalling and Evans are well ahead of him and will only get better.
Anderson and Cleverley are light years ahead of him.
He's got the talent but he's got it all to do.
That's true but they are older. When Clev was Jones' age he was at Watford, whereas Jones has just come off a debut season in which he played over 40 games for United. Also they are obviously very different players.
Did you not understand what I wrote? He currently isn't suited to playing centre back, he is a liability when he plays there. Positionally he's awful, he gets attracted to the ball and can't keep a line. I'm a huge Jones fan, but he's one of the least natural centre back I've ever seen.
It's like claiming he'll be a centre back because he can tackle.
He has shown attributes suited to play in midfield. His mentality, aggression, work rate, tackling are all perfectly suited to being a ball winner in midfield. He's also shown he can get forward and affect the game offensively.
I'd agree with this, at the moment anyway. And it's puzzling because he doesn't hesitate to tell everyone else what to do and where to go despite his own errors. Hopefully he'll learn.
Aside from that I think you need just as much a footballing brain in midfield as central defence, so I'm not sure why you think he's suited to one, but not the other.
I disagree. The way he can drive through the opposition team is something that would go to waste at CB.
I'm also concerned at how he's gonna improve his marking enough there without throwing him into it and potentially putting the team at a disadvantage. As a midfielder he'll have a bit of leeway to develop his skills but I personally think he's best at RB.
There was one piece of defending against Norwich last year where his positioning was bang on in a 2 on 1 situation. He has the raw tools but suffers from the over-eagerness that a lot of Young Defenders suffer from.
He's a CB. Good leap, strong, quick, comfortable on the ball and he's not as positionally inept as some make out.
I don't think he lacks a footballing brain, he's just exuberant.
He wants to close down and win the ball back. His workrate is faultless and as you hinted at he's displayed leadership qualities. I don't see the need to curtail that, and his attacking instincts, in order to shoehorn him into a position he doesn't look comfortable in.
There are clear differences between the two positions. His defensive discipline is a liability in defence, but far less in midfield. Some of the best midfielders have utilised the constant closing down that Jones shows. I'm not saying he doesn't need to reign it in a bit, but you saying that there is no difference between the requirements for CB and CM isn't true. Look at players like Gattuso, De Rossi, Cambiasso... They don't show the same level of discipline required off a top centre back.
Regardless, even if they were equally important skills to both positions, if a mistake is made at centre back then there is a good chance you are going to conceed, in centre mid there is far greater leeway.
This.
Yeah you've already said that.
Are we selling Jonny Evans then?
He's overly aggressive in attacking the ball and he costs goals through this rashness.
Once he learns when to take risks and when to play it cool, he can be a good centreback until that time he needs to mature elsewhere on the pitch.
I agree. He will be a star for us in my opinion. Think he's already brilliant and can't wait to watch his development this season.
I think that's bang on !!!
Didn't we see the exact same thing with Rafael early on as in the rashness of tackle, being slightly over eager? Maybe that's why we see Jones at RB more often than CB. I think in time, once he works on that part of his game he will be fine. The positioning will come with time not everyone is blessed with a reading of the game at a young age like Maldini etc. He's done extremely well so far.
But I do think he will end up a CB, he may come in handy at being cover as a defensive midfielder but long term he's definitely a centre half.
You can make a strong case for any of the three positions we've talked about. There was a 2-3 month stretch last season when Jones was our top performer -- at such a ridiculously young age. I can easily see him edging out Evans for first choice to partner with Smalling but then again I also saw him very good attacking ability as well.
Could it be that Fergie is holding off on buying a holding mid because he sees in Phil Jones a potential box to box midfielder? Maybe.
Could it be that Fergie is holding off on buying a holding mid because he sees in Phil Jones a potential box to box midfielder? Maybe.
Theres a reason why pretty much every top side in the country wanted to sign Jones and why United were willing to spend 17 million to sign him as a 19 year old when we already had 4 top class centre halfs.
A myth has developed at some point that he hasn't a clue how to play the position, that he's rash, and terrible positionally. What many i think are forgetting is what he had to go through last season. Having moved to a new team at a young age for a big money transfer he found himself in a back four that was regularly decimated by injury and a keeper that for the first few months was regularly chopped and changed. He was also constantly played in different positions which meant he never got a proper run of games in his preferred position, it turned out he was the best option we had available at the time to play at right back. He had a couple of horror shows in the Champions League and Europa but our manager himself has admitted that he took the competition lightly and no player can hold their hands up and say their performance in any games were up to scratch. In the league the only poor spell he had at centre half was in december when we had our worst injury crisis, when losing to Blackburn with Rafael and Park infront of him, and Carrick alongside him, followed by Newcastle away when no-one was at the races.
Basically, its far too early to judge his appearances there for us but having seen his displays with Blackburn and the Under 21s, and considering how highly Ferguson, Wenger, Dalglish and co obviously rate him, i think theres a fair chance he's going to devolop into a fantastic player.
It was only because he was the best option we had at the time. Rafael suffered with injuries and loss of form a bit last season, and having sold O'Shea and Brown we had no-one else to play there.
No doubt about that. I think he'll be an absolutely incredible player, just not at centre back. He probably could learn to play there, such is the extent of his talent, but IMO he's more naturally suited to central midfield.
It is not a myth. He cost England in the Euro u21s championship before last season by getting a rush of blood to the head and rampaging up the pitch and he cost us in Europe last season when he played CB.
He's got all the attributes to play there except maybe being a couple of inches shorter than ideal but until he matures he should play a position with less responsibility.
Almost stopped reading at the Under 21 bit as he was undeniably Englands best player in that tournament, while playing at centre half. He was poor in Europe as i alluded to but give me one player that wasn't.
This Positioning thing seems to be a caf obsession, i never hear it mentioned anywhere near as frequently as i do on this site. Rafael, Evra, Buttner, Jones, Evans, Anderson, Cleverley, Giggs etc all apparently suffer from it. Never seen as many positioning experts. While i'm sure in Jones case being a young centre half there'll be room for improvement, i'm sure its nowhere near as big an epidemic within the club as some of you make you make out. The more he plays there the quicker he'll learn.
He did well in general at the u21s (albeit in a very defensive minded team with a lot of support) but his rashness cost the team at the vital moment of the match where they went out. Simply pointing it out. It's arguable that Smalling was the better centre back at the tournament though.
My take is that Jones can and will excel at either CB, RB or DCM. But none of us really have any idea which it's going to be. Maybe we will later this season, but not today.
The best I've seen of Jones has been centre mid by far
agree. Thats where I would like to see him end up. Evans Smalling will be pretty darn good CB pairing.
He has never looked comfortable as a centre mid to me. When has he shown he can pick out a pass in midfield? I don't believe he has ever been enough of a wingback for United's style of play to be used at RB except as cover.
He is still only 20. I think the positional sense as a centre back will improve as he gets more matches. His size, power, and leap make him a centre back. Remember when he caught up with Gareth Bale to make the tackle? That pace and power are invaluable in a centre back.
I think Smalling and Jones are the future with Evans as cover when they are injured.
He is still only 20. I think the positional sense as a centre back will improve as he gets more matches. His size, power, and leap make him a centre back. Remember when he caught up with Gareth Bale to make the tackle? That pace and power are invaluable in a centre back.
I think Smalling and Jones are the future with Evans as cover when they are injured.
He looked brutally off the pace after his initial impact had died down last season. Looks great storming about for the first few months but then was a complete liability and bambi on ice at times defending. Still proper young so can't expect too much but he didn't fill me with confidence last season.
His positional sense will improve but his passing won't?