Phil Jones

His technique is decent, but I think one of his problems may be that it's not as good as he thinks it is. Don't get me wrong, he's good on the ball, and he's certainly better than the majority of defenders out there on the ball, but his charging runs sometimes give you the impression that he thinks he's Messi.

I don't think he's going to make it as a midfielder. His future for us is definitely in the defence. His dominating presence and hard working attitude could be useful in some games, however when we come up against technically gifted teams in the middle like Barca, he'd be exposed and he'd stick out like a sore thumb.
 
I still think Jones may have a future in midfield, it allows him a bit more leeway with his cavalier style than CB does, and I think long term Smalling and Evans may be the first choice CB partnership.
 
Central midfielder no doubt. Has the mentality and physique to impose himself in the middle as he's strong and fast with a good engine, he could close down all game and make tackles, which considering we only play two in the middle is exactly what we need, a static midfield will just get out run. Breaking from midfield and getting forward the way he does could see him score 10-15 goals a season in a few years, he's such a physically imposing player he'd be fantastic to get on the end of Valencia or Nani's crosses.

The lad's only just turned 20 and came from a team where keeping possession and one touch play wasn't exactly a priority, so to have made the transition to our team as well as he has is incredible, and will get better with time. Technical attributes such as passing or first touch can be improved with practice and training, in the same way Hernandez is improving the technical side of his game, Jones will do the same. Once he's been at the club for one or two more seasons, playing in the first team and training everyday, his overall game will have improved hugely and he'll only be 22.
 
Solius said:
What would your expectations for a 19 year old in his debut season at Manchester United be?
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He's young, all too often you see/hear people drawing sweeping generalizations on a player far too quickly...He has a load of potential

Is it true he didn't travel with the team due to the flu?
 
I think could potentially become a good midfielder. It's his positioning and the whole closing the ball down like a headless chicken act that is the main problem at the moment, but that can be worked on.

Still not sold on his first touch and general technique yet. Looking forward to seeing more of him in a United shirt.

BTW, does anyone remember Keane's positional sense was like when he was 20? Surely it's a thing which comes with age and experience.

gooDevil said:
I've noticed something in many sports that happens to young talent like Jones. They start out able to do a few things really well, like Chicharito, when they focus on only doing those few things in a game they look great. But then they begin to broaden their game, their tactical acumen and reading of opportunities, their hold up play, their cross field passes, playing 1-2s, et cetera.

So now, in a situation where Jones would just run with the ball, now he's looking up and trying to find a pass, when that's not why he's been getting attention. Instead of focusing solely on defense he now has to balance his positioning with attacking, I'm sure he's got 100 things he's working on now, and it makes him look less impressive, even though he's improving.

From what I've read the same thing happened to Rooney, until his 30 goal season many people felt he was at his best with Everton when he was single minded and only went for goal, and it's taken him years to get good enough at all the other facets of play to impress people as much as when he was single minded.

At United we want our players to be as versatile as possible, it's just part of the growing pains. Jones hasn't suddenly become a worse players.
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Interesting post.

In regards to Rooney, was it a good thing that he has changed so much as a player. He really was a force to be reckoned with on his first couple of seasons with us. Although Rooney has been molded into a more all round player, I think we miss the style of the old Rooney sometimes in games which aren't quite going our way. It has been a while where he has stood up and taken the game by the scruff of the neck.

Although one thing that has really impressed me with him, is his ability to score, even though he is having a shocker of a game. He has really worked on his clinical(ality?) of finishing!
 
I think we've done the same with Anderson who was an offensive midfielder before he joined us and then started playing a more defensively minded role while at United. It didn't work out in his case though as what we got as a result is a player who can do a lot of things but none of them well enough.
 
I typed this up in another thread, might as well put it here though.

Phil Jones has started six games in midfield this season, as far as I can remember. In two of them he was ranked as our second best player in the match on this forum, and in another he came third. In another game he was widely seen to have played okay, and two others he was poor.

Liverpool A - reasonable performance
Aston Villa A - 2nd best player in the team, scored
Basel A - poor, scored
Wolves H - 3rd best player in the team
QPR A - 3rd best player in the team
Bilbao H - poor

So that's three great games, one good game, and two poor games. Incidentally, he's partnered Carrick three times, Fletcher once, and Giggs twice...

Indeed, Jones has played exactly once in midfield since his fantastic performance against QPR. So why exactly is there now a consensus around these parts that he's crap in midfield, what's the justification for that belief?
 
Decent Soccernet article on Phil Jones. It sums up the situation quite well. At the moment he may be a jack of all trades, and a master of none but that's not such a bad thing for a young player. He's got more appearances in his debut season than any of us imagined he would. He will continue to learn from all these positive and negative experiences and then we can work on his specialisms as a defender.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/column...rd:-phil-jones---a-jack-of-all-trades?cc=5739
 
Chabon said:
I typed this up in another thread, might as well put it here though.

Phil Jones has started six games in midfield this season, as far as I can remember. In two of them he was ranked as our second best player in the match on this forum, and in another he came third. In another game he was widely seen to have played okay, and two others he was poor.

Liverpool A - reasonable performance
Aston Villa A - 2nd best player in the team, scored
Basel A - poor, scored
Wolves H - 3rd best player in the team
QPR A - 3rd best player in the team
Bilbao H - poor

So that's three great games, one good game, and two poor games. Incidentally, he's partnered Carrick three times, Fletcher once, and Giggs twice...

Indeed, Jones has played exactly once in midfield since his fantastic performance against QPR. So why exactly is there now a consensus around these parts that he's crap in midfield, what's the justification for that belief?
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The fact you rank the Liverpool game as reasonable/good kind of undermines that analysis. He was terrible in that game. Looked completely lost.
 
Raven Blade said:
Decent Soccernet article on Phil Jones. It sums up the situation quite well. At the moment he may be a jack of all trades, and a master of none but that's not such a bad thing for a young player. He's got more appearances in his debut season than any of us imagined he would. He will continue to learn from all these positive and negative experiences and then we can work on his specialisms as a defender.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/column...rd:-phil-jones---a-jack-of-all-trades?cc=5739
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Yeah that's a fair summary of his season so far. Agreed.
 
We will really need full concentration from him, in this final stage of the season.

He's still gaining important experience but I believe, he's ready to take a solid part in winning the title and he will be only better... way better than O'Shea ! :)
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The fact you rank the Liverpool game as reasonable/good kind of undermines that analysis. He was terrible in that game. Looked completely lost.
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Hmm, I went off the general consensus in the post-match thread I looked at. Having watched the match in a bar in Copenhagen absolutely rammed with Scandinavian dippers whilst suffering from the twin shocks of having fecked up my ankle the previous night and having bankrupted myself buying lunch, and also having been in that terrified mental haze that occurs whenever we play them, I can barely remember anything bar Adam's ludicrous dive and Chicho's goal. I can't be the only one chronically incapable of analysing our performances in derbies...
 
Pexbo said:
The new John O'Shea?
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Not the new O'Shea at all in my opinion. O'Shea was a good utility player for us, but probably not too much more than that. He was handy for us because he could slot in and cover a number of different positions, and would occasionally get a run of games in one position if he was playing well. Jones is very different to that.

Contrary to O'Shea, I think he can do a lot more than simply slot in for us in a position. When he reaches his prime, in his best position, which I do feel will be as a centre back, then he'll be able to establish himself as a regular first teamer, as opposed to O'Shea who was a rotational/backup player for a lot of his time here.
 
He's going to have one hell of a job dislodging Evans, and it's looking like Smalling at centre back for years to come is pretty much a given. That's Jones' problem as far as cementing a regular place at centre back is concerned.

I've no idea how it'll pan out, to be honest. He's clearly a quality youngster, but there's a lot of work to be done, and a lot of uncertainty regarding his position in the future. I get the feeling that we'll need to make his future position more certain at the risk of diluting his talent. Like it or not, this is probably what happened with O'Shea.

Still, you can't help but feel he'll make it somewhere in the team.
 
I think hes doing really well.

Still young, still quite inexperienced. His talent is clear though thats for sure.

I think he'll be a great player for Utd in the coming years.
 
cheesy said:
Not the new O'Shea at all in my opinion. O'Shea was a good utility player for us, but probably not too much more than that. He was handy for us because he could slot in and cover a number of different positions, and would occasionally get a run of games in one position if he was playing well. Jones is very different to that.

Contrary to O'Shea, I think he can do a lot more than simply slot in for us in a position. When he reaches his prime, in his best position, which I do feel will be as a centre back, then he'll be able to establish himself as a regular first teamer, as opposed to O'Shea who was a rotational/backup player for a lot of his time here.
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I'd argue O'Shea had a better first season than Jones has had and showed as much promise.
 
One player he reminds me of is Kolo Toure. I remember Wenger using him all over the place including interestingly right back and midfield before settling him in central defense. There's also a similarity in playing style and physique that strikes me.

If he does as well as Kolo's done (while staying away from whatever drug problems he's had), I guess i'll be happy enough. If he evolves into something more, excellent.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Exactly.

Makes no sense that "the next O'Shea" is getting interpreted as a criticism.
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Well I think some people have seen enough promise to expect Jones to become a world class player in time - so it would be a step down if ended up being just a squad player

Due to OShea a lot of United fans seem to think that versatility means you cant excel at any one position - but that is simply not true.
 
No. As proven by O'Shea, who excelled in at least two different positions.

As for being a "squad player", he averaged 40 appearances a season for 10 years as a United player. His most appearances in a single season (54) came in 08/09 when we broke defensive records, domestically and in Europe.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
No. As proven by O'Shea, who excelled in at least two different positions.
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I thought it was more than people thought if O'shea focused on one position only he would have become world class rather than a good squad player that did a job in multiple positions? Perhaps I'm wide of the mark here but just trying to remember old debates about JOS.
 
MST3K said:
I thought it was more than people thought if O'shea focused on one position only he would have become world class rather than a good squad player that did a job in multiple positions? Perhaps I'm wide of the mark here but just trying to remember old debates about JOS.
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Sheasy was a world class squad player ;)
 
We don't have to pay £16m for an O'Shea replacement is why it's a criticism. As much of a good guy O'Shea was, he was never really worth half that, same deal with Phil Neville, who is better than him, but again, you wouldn't never see him going for those prices.
 
Zen said:
We don't have to pay £16m for an O'Shea replacement is why it's a criticism. As much of a good guy O'Shea was, he was never really worth half that, same deal with Phil Neville, who is better than him, but again, you wouldn't never see him going for those prices.
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Transfer prices nowadays aren't comparable with season's past and signing English players has always cost a premium.

Vidic and Evra combined cost 4m less than Jones. Very harsh to judge him on that basis. Look at how much Carroll, Henderson and Downing went for in the same transfer window.
 
Zen said:
We don't have to pay £16m for an O'Shea replacement is why it's a criticism. As much of a good guy O'Shea was, he was never really worth half that, same deal with Phil Neville, who is better than him, but again, you wouldn't never see him going for those prices.
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Don't agree with that at all, O'Shea was a hugely important member of the squad for a long time, he was worth a damn site more than £8m to us over the course of his time at United.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Transfer prices nowadays aren't comparable with season's past and signing English players has always cost a premium.

Vidic and Evra combined cost 4m less than Jones. Very harsh to judge him on that basis. Look at how much Carroll, Henderson and Downing went for in the same transfer window.
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January signing.

R_Kelly said:
Don't agree with that at all, O'Shea was a hugely important member of the squad for a long time, he was worth a damn site more than £8m to us over the course of his time at United.
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I agree, considering his role in the team and the number of appearances he made for us. I'll always remember that goal he scored at Anfield on my birthday.
 
Well Phil Neville was also English, and I don't think he was worth £8m either and he's always been a superior player to John O'Shea, that style of player will never attract wild money is my point....despite how important they can be.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Exactly.

Makes no sense that "the next O'Shea" is getting interpreted as a criticism.
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It's seen as a criticism because while O'Shea was a brilliant utility player for us, Jones has the potential to be so much more. While O'Shea was good, you'd hardly put him in the world class bracket, would you?

Well, Jones is different. Despite his evident flaws at the moment, he's got the potential to go on and become one of the top players in the world in his primary position: at centre back. O'Shea may have been good for us, but the same couldn't be said for him if I'm being honest.
 
I'll be disappointed if Jones ends up having an O'Shea like career. To be fair, looking at O'Shea's first season, I'm disappointed he ended up with his career. Not that he didn't have a good one, but he looked like a truly class player early on. Much like Phil, he became a quality squad player rather than a big first choice. Jones has world class potential. If he doesn't realise it - and I don't he can do that in any of his positions - it'll be a disappointment.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
No. As proven by O'Shea, who excelled in at least two different positions.

As for being a "squad player", he averaged 40 appearances a season for 10 years as a United player. His most appearances in a single season (54) came in 08/09 when we broke defensive records, domestically and in Europe.
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:boring: Im not really interested in discussing OShea in this thread, he was a good squad player for many years but no more than that IMO - I believe that Jones can reach a higher level.
 
Yep, these comments echo what I was saying. It's great to have a solid utility player, but when you're asked to choose between a solid utility player and a potentially world class player, unless your squad is struggling with depth, which isn't the case with us, it's a no brainer which one you're going to choose every time.
 
So where does everyone see Jones' best position?

Now? Future?

I bet we get 10 different answers.
 
peterstorey said:
Simple, he's a CB now and forever.
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Can't see him getting in there ahead of Evans and Smalling. Evans was infinitely better at the same age and is so far ahead of him now. Smalling is also well ahead of him now, better in the air, positionally, much tidier on the ball.

He's got the tools to be a wonderful footballer but we need to settle him in a position soon otherwise he's going to be just like O'Shea, jack of all and master of none.

I'm not knocking either O'Shea or Jones here by the way. O'Shea was fantastic for us and Jones I rate very highly and think he has a lot of potential he just needs to focus it in the right way and also sort his concentration out but that comes with age. Ferdinand was blasted for his concentration until he was about 25.
 
Pexbo said:
So where does everyone see Jones' best position?

Now? Future?

I bet we get 10 different answers.
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he is not a limited player. CB will probably always be his 'main' position. But I would not be surprised to see him as a defensive midfielder. He is quick, can tackle,has excellent ball control and can pass. Heck the kid is only 19 or 20. Just watch him develop into a superb footballer both for us and for England :)
 
Phil said:
So every position except keeper??
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Well, no.... but yes, it was an exaggeration.

1. Centreback Now, Rightback Future.
2. Rightback Now, Centreback Future.
3. Rightback Now, Defensive Mid future.
4. Defensive Mid now, Centreback Future.
5. Centreback now, Defensive Mid Future.
6. Box to Box Mid now, Centreback Future.

You get the idea, any one of those could be accurate.
 
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