Oh how the tide changes.
A few shit games and now he's no longer going to be a great player.
Get a fecking grip.
A few shit games and now he's no longer going to be a great player.
Get a fecking grip.
Phil Jones
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It's just one idiot, to be fair.
He's a good player, but as I've stated in the past technically he's not good enough to play in midfield at the very highest level. His touch isn't sharp or crisp enough. Granted, he does go on these runs which can distort the shape of opposition teams but he's much more suited to being a fullback imo. He has decent pace and can whip a ball in well.
The same was said about Jonny Evans last season, now every single gimp is raving about him after having a run of games in the first team. Young players all go through a phase good and bad. Jones has started very well, got injured and has since come back into the team in and out playing in a variey of positions. You can't get consistency this way. As long as he's playing, he learns and will get better as a result of it
To be fair most people went way overboard earlier in the season. The 'new Duncan Edwards' talk was laughable. People are just desperate for a new hero and thats why this stuff happens.
i simply made the point that at the start of this thread that people's expectations (not mine) where beyond rediculous of what jones is and was going to be. My post was in response to somebody saying he had exceded those expectations. In my opinion he has not.
Tom Cleverley when played has exceeded expectations.
Last season Javier Hernandez exceeded expectations.
With all the hype (not the lads fault) and the price tag (also not the lads fault), then based on quite a few of his performances he has not exceeded expectaions. He's done ok at times but he's very much a work in progress with alot to learn.
my point about his inferior positional and technical ability is a vaild one. Both smalling and evens are far superior in these departments something im certain the stats will back up as does fergies / pearce's / capello's reluctance to play him at centre half prove. If you add up the goals conceded when he's played centre back i would hazard a guess it acounts for the majority of goals the team has conceded. Then in each of those games look at the goals scored and for the majority jones will be involved in poor defending.
That my friends is not opinion based on potential, expectations, media portrayal but fact!!
to back up my point look at the thread "our best young player" the majority of people here said Jones at the start of the season. The majority have now changed there minds to rafa, de gea or smalling. Therefore, he clearly has not lived up to expectation (again....not mine but others) that was the point of my post.
Personally i think jones will be invaluable. in the same way sheasy was. he'll always give everthing and will always get 30 plus games in. But i honestly do not see him as a future capatain for first choice in any particular position.
Tom Cleverley when played has exceeded expectations.
Last season Javier Hernandez exceeded expectations.
With all the hype (not the lads fault) and the price tag (also not the lads fault), then based on quite a few of his performances he has not exceeded expectaions. He's done ok at times but he's very much a work in progress with alot to learn.
my point about his inferior positional and technical ability is a vaild one. Both smalling and evens are far superior in these departments something im certain the stats will back up as does fergies / pearce's / capello's reluctance to play him at centre half prove. If you add up the goals conceded when he's played centre back i would hazard a guess it acounts for the majority of goals the team has conceded. Then in each of those games look at the goals scored and for the majority jones will be involved in poor defending.
That my friends is not opinion based on potential, expectations, media portrayal but fact!!
to back up my point look at the thread "our best young player" the majority of people here said Jones at the start of the season. The majority have now changed there minds to rafa, de gea or smalling. Therefore, he clearly has not lived up to expectation (again....not mine but others) that was the point of my post.
Personally i think jones will be invaluable. in the same way sheasy was. he'll always give everthing and will always get 30 plus games in. But i honestly do not see him as a future capatain for first choice in any particular position.
What would your expectations for a 19 year old in his debut season at Manchester United be?
he's proberbly lived up to my expectations.
I expected him to be a blood and thunder type player who will be a bit rash at times, make some great blocks, be brave etc but also drop some clangers. l
ike i say, he's lived up to my expectations but he certainly hasnt "exceeded the expectaions" of others. i once again point you to the "who is our best young player" thread.
I think ben foster is being overly harsh and I completely disagree with some of his points (feck knows how Jones is to blame for the penalty conceded against Arsenal) but I agree with the general point that Jones hasn't exceeded expectations.
I don't think every 19 year old arrives at the same club with the same burden of expectation for starters. Jones cost a lot of money, was highly sought after and talked up massively by, amongst others, Sam Allardyce (who compared him to Essien) and Gary Neville (said he was nailed on as a future England captain)
Personally, I expected someone who would be a solid, resolute defender but who wouldn't add much to our attacking football. I've been impressed by how good he is going forwards but generally a bit underwhelmed by his defensive displays. I certainly think, for example, that Jonny Evans was a better centre-half when he was the same age that Jones is now.
Has he surpassed my expectations? Not really. He's a talented young footballer who is a work in progress, as expected.
I agree with most of what you said. But think that Jones will be far more valuable and a far better player than O'Shea. He looked a far better player at Blackburn than he has this year with us. I'd like to think this year is a bedding in period and that he'll come into his own at Centre Back. I'm sure with the right training he will.
Did you genuinely think he'd be such a seemingly permanent fixture in the side when fit though? I didn't, I thought he'd be a work in progress and we'd bring him on slowly. Injuries have helped him play more but even in recent weeks where we have Rafael fit (and who IMO is a better option at RB) we have kept him in the side. Anyway nice to see he's been rested for the Bilbao game. It's very easy to forget just how impressive he was when he first came, I couldn't believe he was 19! He's tailed off but I'm not impressed by the rewriting of what's he done here so far.
fair comment mate. i agree he'l be a better player than sheasy. But as you rightly say.....he looked better and was billed as being better than he has actually showed which was just the point i was making. he has not exceeded expectations.
if people what to suggest that i am "an idiot" and talking shit about his positinal and technical attributes then fair enough. but i am comfortbale with that statement and maintain he needs to seriousley work on these aspects of his game.
People rightly say, he's 19 so times is on his hands. But pogue also rightly says, Johnny Evens at 19 was a far superior centre back in terms of positions, distribution and alround defending. did he go on rampaging 40 yards runs? no, but name a good centre half that ever has
he's played the games he has because of the injuries we have had. no other reason.
Jones is underrated technically, his touch totally belies that of someone who isn't a natural midfielder but he's shown he's very good on the ball as a defender which is where I've always thought he's best suited. I wasn't convinced by the calls of him in midfield but when he's next to Carrick he's not too bad. His positional flaws would remain exposed in the CM so for me he's best suited to the RB area or perhaps as part of a midfield 3. Someone also need to have a word with him when it comes to marking. He still tracks the opposing forwards far too high, needs to learn when to drop off.
He'll learn though and I think a bit of time away from starting could help.
He'll learn though and I think a bit of time away from starting could help.
What about the last few weeks?
yeah opk the "no other reason" comment isnt warrented but its a major reason why he has played so many games. thats and his versatility.
like sheasy playing knocking on 400 games. it wasnt due to him being first choice but more his versatility and injuries.
im not debating jones ability in the slightest. read my posts correctly i clearly say he will become invaluable and perhaps has already proven that. my sole point was that he hasnt exceeded expectations.
like sheasy playing knocking on 400 games. it wasnt due to him being first choice but more his versatility and injuries.
im not debating jones ability in the slightest. read my posts correctly i clearly say he will become invaluable and perhaps has already proven that. my sole point was that he hasnt exceeded expectations.
His 1st half of the season was far more impressive than Vidic's 1st half season.
A big ask for a player so young to come to a club as big as Utd and right away been thrown into massive league and European games. As well as earning England caps.
I think he has handled it all very well. And for the sheer amount of games he has played has far exceeding my expectations
A big ask for a player so young to come to a club as big as Utd and right away been thrown into massive league and European games. As well as earning England caps.
I think he has handled it all very well. And for the sheer amount of games he has played has far exceeding my expectations
lets just say if rio and vidic had been fit all season he would have barley appeared at centre half. he'd have competed with rafa and smalling at right back.
had cleverley, anderson, scholes and fletcher all been avilable for selection he probs would never have played centre mid.
if you think otherwise than it certainly isnt me who is the "idiot"
had cleverley, anderson, scholes and fletcher all been avilable for selection he probs would never have played centre mid.
if you think otherwise than it certainly isnt me who is the "idiot"
He's exceeded mine.
I had my reservations about him at Blackburn (saw him in the middle a couple of times), but nah, he has been great this season (overall).
I wanted to see him a bit more in the midfield, but I'd prefer us to keep him in anywhere along the back line......from what I've seen he doesn't look like a midfielder.
I wanted to see him a bit more in the midfield, but I'd prefer us to keep him in anywhere along the back line......from what I've seen he doesn't look like a midfielder.
Not sure if he's exceeded my expectations, because I had very high hopes for him from the start. I agree with Pogue, he's probably MET them.
I didn't expect him to play so much though, that's for sure.
I didn't expect him to play so much though, that's for sure.
At the start of the season he far exceeded my expectations but, then not sure if due to fatigue or what seemed to tail off. Now it seems like maybe he is trying too hard to be that difference maker. Can't remember which game recently but, it was one where he just focused on being a defender first and foremost and it resulted in a solid game.
If we do use him again as a DM, then I hope it is emphasized to him he needs to really pick and choose his moments to go forward and that his primary job is to provide cover. I think he'd make a formidable DM given his desire to win the ball and drive - just needs more experience.
If we do use him again as a DM, then I hope it is emphasized to him he needs to really pick and choose his moments to go forward and that his primary job is to provide cover. I think he'd make a formidable DM given his desire to win the ball and drive - just needs more experience.
I've noticed something in many sports that happens to young talent like Jones. They start out able to do a few things really well, like Chicharito, when they focus on only doing those few things in a game they look great. But then they begin to broaden their game, their tactical acumen and reading of opportunities, their hold up play, their cross field passes, playing 1-2s, et cetera.
So now, in a situation where Jones would just run with the ball, now he's looking up and trying to find a pass, when that's not why he's been getting attention. Instead of focusing solely on defense he now has to balance his positioning with attacking, I'm sure he's got 100 things he's working on now, and it makes him look less impressive, even though he's improving.
From what I've read the same thing happened to Rooney, until his 30 goal season many people felt he was at his best with Everton when he was single minded and only went for goal, and it's taken him years to get good enough at all the other facets of play to impress people as much as when he was single minded.
At United we want our players to be as versatile as possible, it's just part of the growing pains. Jones hasn't suddenly become a worse players.
So now, in a situation where Jones would just run with the ball, now he's looking up and trying to find a pass, when that's not why he's been getting attention. Instead of focusing solely on defense he now has to balance his positioning with attacking, I'm sure he's got 100 things he's working on now, and it makes him look less impressive, even though he's improving.
From what I've read the same thing happened to Rooney, until his 30 goal season many people felt he was at his best with Everton when he was single minded and only went for goal, and it's taken him years to get good enough at all the other facets of play to impress people as much as when he was single minded.
At United we want our players to be as versatile as possible, it's just part of the growing pains. Jones hasn't suddenly become a worse players.
He's been fantastic for the first half of the season. Maybe it's the fact he's played too much at a young age, maybe the string of injuries he got, but he's tailed off. Maybe we won't see the best of him again until next season. Whatever, I'm delighted with his first year. He'll be a monster of a player in whatever position we decide will be his regular. But I do hope we make a decision rather rather than turn him into a Phil Neville or an O'Shea.
Said it before and I'll say it again. He will never be a midfielder, in any form.
At the moment, he seem more like a right-back than any of the positions in the team he's covering so far. He won't get ahead of Evans and Smalling at centreback, or Carrick/Scholes/Cleverley/Fletch(when he returns) at central midfield
Tbh No disrespect to O'Shea but he is already at his level and will be way better than him.
May be not as reliable though due to age.
Why are so many so certain that Fletcher will return and become really good again?
Sadly, Fletchers have to be discounted.
If he can't play for a year, there's bigger chance that he won't be able to play again, 1 year of not playing football is too much for a top footballer.
If he can't play for a year, there's bigger chance that he won't be able to play again, 1 year of not playing football is too much for a top footballer.
Technically he's minor potatoes. His touch is wayward in the middle of the park. As a full-back he can use his pace and power to really get down the line and get a ball in..it's looking his best bet now.
You've been watching too much Spanish football mate, by English standards he's good. He's gone on so many marauding runs and then when it comes to the final product I'm expecting him to display his power again but he's shown he has got poise and touch:
Also I want to say that defending in the 2 on 1 vs. Norwich was actually perfect defending, it actually surprised me to watch again.
That's complete bollocks. Technically he's very good, his first touch is 1st class. He might not move like a ballerina but he's a very good footballer for a defender.
It has been awfully weird hasn't it. Nobody seemed to have any idea how aggressive he was. I also thought he'd great cover as a DM, but it turns out he's much more Steven Gerrard than Javier Mascherano. People have become ridiculously negative about his ability there because he couldn't hack it when paired with a 40 year old winger against a three man Spanish midfield, but the only time he's got a run in there was against Villa, Wolves and QPR, alongside Carrick, and he was fecking fantastic. He also acquitted himself well for England a couple of times. And, of course, he mostly played CM for Blackburn. I can only presume the sudden shift against him is due to his minor slump in form, and the fact that everybody on this forum is masturbating themselves comatose over Spanish midfielders.
Great vid AC.
As I've said before I think he's best in RB at least for now. It allows him to make some defensive mistakes potentially not being as costly as CB. But more importantly it allows for him to go on those awesome forward runs. All the while leaving CM for someone who's more the (consistently) complete package in that department. With the way he plays anyway he'll develop the attributes needed for CB and CM if they're there to be developed further. The only 'problem' is we already have a promising youngster in that position.
As I've said before I think he's best in RB at least for now. It allows him to make some defensive mistakes potentially not being as costly as CB. But more importantly it allows for him to go on those awesome forward runs. All the while leaving CM for someone who's more the (consistently) complete package in that department. With the way he plays anyway he'll develop the attributes needed for CB and CM if they're there to be developed further. The only 'problem' is we already have a promising youngster in that position.
I don't think he has any technique issues. What he lacks is experience and the awareness that comes with it.
His technique is ok if he is playing at RB, but for MAnchester United midfielder isn't good enough. It's ok in some games when we are dominating possesion easy, but that's it.
foster's criteria are completely exaggerated, certainly for a fresh-faced 19 year old in either a position that requires a lot of practice to master, or in unfamiliar positions.
He's been tremendous for us, and I don't think he's been over-hyped. The lad's going to be a monster. Dead cert, for me.
He's been tremendous for us, and I don't think he's been over-hyped. The lad's going to be a monster. Dead cert, for me.