[RexHamilton]

Jones has technically "been here" but he's been injured so much he might as well not have been. He just needs three more appearances and he'll already have played more football than in 4 of his 6 previous seasons at the club. And it just so happens that him playing in the vast majority of our games this season has coincided with us conceding the joint lowest amount of goals in the league. And this is without having any chance to build up a settled central defensive partnership. All things considered, he's been pretty fecking good this season and the abuse he's getting after arguably his one and only poor performance this season is mental.

I'm not saying the reaction here after last night hasn't been over the top. It has. But the ability to stay fit and build a central defensive partnership is just as important as actually building it. He's managed to stay, relatively, injury free this year and yes, he has been our best defender. He's still atrocious on the ball though. I do think Bailly is far better, but he's been the one injured this year.

Our defensive record has been good this year but having watched the majority of our games, we have rarely looked solid once we come under pressure. In fact we've looked very suspect. Take the Arsenal game for example (and I know it's only one game, but it tells a tale). We won 3-1 away. Conceding 1 away to a top 6 club in a 3-1 win is acceptable. We got 8 shots away, 4 on target. They had 33 with 16 on target. We only conceded 1 goal, but allowing a team 16 shots on target is absolutely criminal.

Bottom line for me is, he's been at the club a long time now and isn't a top class central defender. He wouldn't be in any other of the top 6's first 11 bar Liverpool and I reckon I'd start for them.

I like him, I like his passion. But I think we need to move on. That's not knee jerk.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'm not saying the reaction here after last night hasn't been over the top. It has. But the ability to stay fit and build a central defensive partnership is just as important as actually building it. He's managed to stay, relatively, injury free this year and yes, he has been our best defender. He's still atrocious on the ball though. I do think Bailly is far better, but he's been the one injured this year.

Our defensive record has been good this year but having watched the majority of our games, we have rarely looked solid once we come under pressure. In fact we've looked very suspect. Take the Arsenal game for example (and I know it's only one game, but it tells a tale). We won 3-1 away. Conceding 1 away to a top 6 club in a 3-1 win is acceptable. We got 8 shots away, 4 on target. They had 33 with 16 on target. We only conceded 1 goal, but allowing a team 16 shots on target is absolutely criminal.

Bottom line for me is, he's been at the club a long time now and isn't a top class central defender. He wouldn't be in any other of the top 6's first 11 bar Liverpool and I reckon I'd start for them.

I like him, I like his passion. But I think we need to move on. That's not knee jerk.

I think you're being harsh. There's obviously huge question marks over his ability to stay fit but his performances this season have been consistently very good. Last night was massively out of character from what we've seen. The biggest problem this season has been the lack of a consistent partner for him. You can't keep chopping and changing central defenders and expect us to defend well as a unit.

I do agree that we've let far too many shots at our goal this season. I've posted stats in another thread which show that De Gea has made the second highest number of saves of any PL keeper. By contrast, the keepers at the other top clubs are all bunched at the other end of the "save table". I put this down to a combination of our midfield not functioning well enough and the lack of a settled back four. Individually, Jones has been top class all season long. Right up until last night.

 

[RexHamilton]

I think you're being harsh. There's obviously huge question marks over his ability to stay fit but his performances this season have been consistently very good. Last night was massively out of character from what we've seen. The biggest problem this season has been the lack of a consistent partner for him. You can't keep chopping and changing central defenders and expect us to defend well as a unit.

I do agree that we've let far too many shots at our goal this season. I've posted stats in another thread which show that De Gea has made the second highest number of saves of any PL keeper. By contrast, the keepers at the other top clubs are all bunched at the other end of the "save table". I put this down to a combination of our midfield not functioning well enough and the lack of a settled back four. Individually, Jones has been top class all season long. Right up until last night.

I suppose I just don't see it. I think he's good. I don't think he's top class by any means. A good squad player for me. Not to quote the threads of the day but I don't think we'd win the league with Jones as a first choice centre half.

 

[Isotope]

The top banner says it all. In 20 games he has played, we have kept 13 cleansheets. That's superb record.

1 bad game and now he is back to shit again.

He was bad against Chelsea as well. Then out of the three CB, he was subbed because, as many in here thought, he's a red card waiting to happen.

Somehow, people seems to forget about that Stoke game also. And that Leicester Vardy's

Then this Spurs game.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

I've never been convinced by him and I'm not really a fan of him to be honest but he's been good this season overall.

Absolutely shocking last night though.

 

[17 Van der Gouw]

This. Chris Smalling and Phil Jones wouldn't be in the starting line-up for City, Tottenham or Chelsea. Both of them are average English central defenders that should be playing for mediocre sides such as Crystal Palace, West Ham, Watford etc.

I'm sorry that's simply not true.

Jones especially would start at almost any top club; he's been consistently better than John Stones has at City all season.

 

[17 Van der Gouw]

Before last night, he was our 2nd highest rated outfield player (behind Pogba) in the 'Caf player ratings table.

...because of his one bad performance, he's now joint 3rd. I really don't care for kneejerking, so I'll say it again - he had a bad game, all players do now and again, he is still one of best defenders at United.

 

[redflair]

Jones has done well for us - but once you start shouting at others, it's best not to put the ball in your own net.

That mini-tantrum, I believe, led to the second goal because he 'lost it for a while'.

But our defence, over the last few seasons, has been prety good so you can't go overboard against a motivated Spurs side, who wanted the result more than us.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I'm sorry that's simply not true.

Jones especially would start at almost any top club; he's been consistently better than John Stones has at City all season.

Phil Jones would not start for City as he wants a ball player there, that is why he bought John Stones and now Aymeric Laporte. Otamendi is his defending CB. Now being Otamendi's replacement maybe. You picked the wrong example.

 

[Acole9]

Before last night, he was our 2nd highest rated outfield player (behind Pogba) in the 'Caf player ratings table.

...because of his one bad performance, he's now joint 3rd. I really don't care for kneejerking, so I'll say it again - he had a bad game, all players do now and again, he is still one of best defenders at United.

Definitely he's had a good season for us. He still has brain farts in matches (We saw that last night) but he does them far less often than he used to and still looks a lot more composed than the majority of our defenders.

 

[AP88]

What does that even mean? That top class professional footballers don't ever make hideous mistakes like Jones did last night? They do. It happens all the time. They're still top class professional footballers.

It means the positioning of his feet and general body shape when facing that cross were atrocious, and that’s the single biggest factor in the conceded goal; it means if he’s willing to work on it to the point of eradication, it can be forgiven. It wasn’t just an error, it was the exposure of a flaw that needs to be ironed out of his game if he’s going to sustain a starting place at a top club and establish himself as a reliable defender.

You can tell he was a quick, powerful kid - he’s clearly neglected the development of positional play due to the capacity to rectify his errors in reading of the game with raw physicality. The likes of Vidic and Terry neutralised their lack of raw pace with an awareness that Jones currently lacks - he’s definitely improved it under Mourinho, but he still needs to mature a lot ‘intellectually’.

To be fair though, this is probably only his third season as a default central defender, so naturally he’s going to learn on the job - although he’s still relatively young, he’s a baby in terms of his actual role; Rio made mistakes in his early years at United, despite having a few hundred senior games as a center back at West Ham, Leeds and with England before his arrival.

I want him to succeed, I really do, but he has to learn to isolate himself within the defensive zone (goals for Chelsea and Leicester have featured Jones going AWOL) and how to defend that territory properly.

 

[roonster09]

He was bad against Chelsea as well. Then out of the three CB, he was subbed because, as many in here thought, he's a red card waiting to happen.

Somehow, people seems to forget about that Stoke game also. And that Leicester Vardy's

Then this Spurs game.

IIRC he was playing with injury, Jose said it in interview. Then Jones took injections to play friendly game.

 

[flappyjay]

Phil Jones would not start for City as he wants a ball player there, that is why he bought John Stones and now Aymeric Laporte. Otamendi is his defending CB. Now being Otamendi's replacement maybe. You picked the wrong example.

He would stroll into the Chelsea defense, simply because he is way better than Cahill who has been awful, he is also better than Matip and Van Dijk

 

[Raees]

He's basically a defensive Lukaku., I think he's good to have against weaker sides but not good enough for the highest level, if lindelof hadn't been so undercooked we would have had two top CBS and he'd be a backup. Looking at it from that perspective he's done well for a backup this season.

 

[Jinn]

He's not good enough to lead the defence. All he needs is Bailly to play next to him.
We should think about getting a very experienced/leader/more talented defender next season.

 

[Jaybomb]

I'm sorry that's simply not true.

Jones especially would start at almost any top club; he's been consistently better than John Stones has at City all season.

He’d probably start for Liverpool but there’s no fecking way he’s getting into City, Chelsea or Spurs squads. He’d fit right in a team like Everton or Stoke. He’s never United quality, don’t care what anyone says.

Then again, I remember getting into arguments like this a few seasons ago when I said the same thing about Welbeck and Cleverley and now look where they are. Some people on here are just drawn to these bang average English players it seems.

 

[17 Van der Gouw]

He’d probably start for Liverpool but there’s no fecking way he’s getting into City, Chelsea or Spurs squads. He’d fit right in a team like Everton or Stoke. He’s never United quality, don’t care what anyone says.

Then again, I remember getting into arguments like this a few seasons ago when I said the same thing about Welbeck and Cleverley and now look where they are. Some people on here are just drawn to these bang average English players it seems.

Bang average - he's been superb all season. Anybody can see that. It's nothing to do with him being English, but evidently his nationality counts against him in your case.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Bang average - he's been superb all season. Anybody can see that. It's nothing to do with him being English, but evidently his nationality counts against him in your case.

I mean that’s your opinion but to me he and Rojo would be the first exits out the door. Jones is a rubbish defender who is just good at recovering his mistakes. He’s a 2nd tiger defender who would struggle to get in most of the top 6 teams.

 

[Ardis]

Every time there is a half-decent British player in the PL English fans hype him up like hell. Truth is, Phil Jones couldn't play for any top European side if it wasn't for Utd. Send him to West Brom already so he can be a brave-heart hero for a kick-and-rush team.

 

[17 Van der Gouw]

Every time there is a half-decent British player in the PL English fans hype him up like hell. Truth is, Phil Jones couldn't play for any top European side if it wasn't for Utd. Send him to West Brom already so he can be a brave-heart hero for a kick-and-rush team.

You've mentioned his nationality three times in this thread, just like you've mentioned he belongs at Watford/West Ham/West Brom three times. Do you have anything of substance to add or are you just here to spew the same xenophobic bullshit over and over?

The caf notoriously does not give English players an easy ride (see Rooney's thread last year, Smalling's this year and Young's pretty much ever) While it is true that the press give the English a free pass, the same certainly does not happen in here.

Most in this thread can see Jones is having a cracking season, spare a few kneejerkers since Wednesday who think an own goal changes everything.

 

[SirAF]

Jones is great, it's Smalling who is the problem in the defence. Every time someone passes him the ball he seems to piss himself with fear and stumble over - it's such a chore to watch him on the ball.

 

[Ardis]

Phil Jones lacks defending vision and thought. He is all will and motivation. That won't hold against Bayern, Barcelona, etc. Hell, I don't know if it will be enough against Sevilla.

Chris Smalling is arguably worse when it comes to mental defending attributes. Those are unfortunately typical British defender traits.

 

[Ardis]

There is Rudiger, Christensen and Azpilicueta. He wouldn't stroll into the Chelsea defense.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Phil Jones lacks defending vision and thought. He is all will and motivation. That won't hold against Bayern, Barcelona, etc. Hell, I don't know if it will be enough against Sevilla.

Chris Smalling is arguably worse when it comes to mental defending attributes. Those are unfortunately typical British defender traits.

What is your issue with English and British footballers?

It's all you ever go on about.

 

[Ardis]

Not really all I ever go no about dear Mister Djemba. However, I do believe there is a big lack of footballing intelligence when it comes to British players in general and you can see it in the case of Phil's decision-making during big important games. He gets overwhelmed and takes wrong decisions.

 

[Jim Beam]

Not really all I ever go no about dear Mister Djemba. However, I do believe there is a big lack of footballing intelligence when it comes to British players in general and you can see it in the case of Phil's decision-making during big important games. He gets overwhelmed and takes wrong decisions.

This is like one of the weirdest sentences put together. Ever.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Not really all I ever go no about dear Mister Djemba. However, I do believe there is a big lack of footballing intelligence when it comes to British players in general and you can see it in the case of Phil's decision-making during big important games. He gets overwhelmed and takes wrong decisions.

Interestingly defensive errors leading to goals in the Premier League this season is dominated by foreign players

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/error_lead_to_goal

Obviously it doesn't tell the whole story but it doesn't chime in with your theory at least.

31 errors from foreign players against 10 from British players.

 

[POF]

One of the most improved players under Mourinho. He has been fantastic this season. Depending on Valencia's longevity and Pogba's progress, I think there is a good chance Jones could be made captain.

 

[Samir Faiad]

I find it very interesting how quick people are to write people off over one bad performance, as they equally are reactive to one good season or game.

Have people forgotten that the great man Ferguson himself said that Jones could be one of United's Greatest ever player? The same guy who said years ago that Lingard would find his feet later in his career, around 24/25 of age.

As someone previously mentioned, before the Tottenham game, Jones was second in the rankings on the Cafe for this season, because he not only has been consistent, but has had a few Man of the Match performances.

So, am I mistaken, we have never seen greats like Vidic, Ferdinand etc make mistakes/have bad performances? I recall Vidic getting bullied by Torres, Ferdinand has six own goals to his name, as examples. Defenders, like a Goal Keeper, appear to get more stick, because their mistakes tend to lead to an opposition goal. The reality is, the first Goal was in fact Young's fault and he definitely played a part in the second, providing little to no cover. Re-watch the highlights and the game and you will see Tottenham actually predominately challenged the right flank, due to seeing Young as a defensive weakness.

In addition, Sergio Ramos is considered in some circles as one of the best Central Defenders around; he also got 'bullied' by Kane. You're talking about the Top Scorer last year, in all of European football. It takes a team to stop players like that, not a single defender.

The midfield didn't not provide any cover for the defence. There is a reason why Ferguson used to pick Park & Fletcher over Carrick (the better midfielder), in big games. This mistake appears to continue; with no thought process associated with Midfield. Many games are won and lost from the middle of the park. What happened to a Midfield three, to combat the energy and counter play of teams, like Tottenham and City. What happened to the back three, which we had fantastic performances with, allowing us to provide more energy and challenge in the middle of the park and also allow for counter-play, making our pathetic hoofing of the ball, a bit more useful.

Do you not recall how Ferguson used to play Jones as a DM against big teams? Forgotten how he had a peak Ronaldo in his pocket?

The reality is a top class defender also requires a consistent partner, as well as a complimentary one, along with a consistent style of play; it is in part and parcel why Ferdinand and Vidic did so well together (consistent partner, that complimented each other, in a team with a consistent style of play).

No one has realised that also Matic seems so bloody tired and not providing the same protection he was earlier in the Season. All the top teams in recent years have relied upon an energetic DM; in fact before Real Madrid winning both Champions Leagues, they hadn't a DM; Casemiro played an integral part in Madrid being a powerhouse in them two years.

Manchester City have had the best defensive record this season, but let in four against Liverpool. Otamendi, who has been one of the most consistent defenders this season, was not made out to be shit, because of one bad game; sometimes the team needs to take stick, not one player.

In my humble opinion, Jones is extremely under-rated and has been one of our most consistent and dedicated player (consistently playing with injury) this season. Not sure where we would be in the League thus far, without his consistent performances throughout.

I think in these big away games, we need to take a leaf from Fergie's books and actually prepare appropriately; with a Midfield Three, or Back Three to allow us to be able to counter play or at least challenge their midfields. In addition, I feel Matic's age is showing later in the Season, where Mourinho has not appropriately changed with Herrera and his Lovefest with Fellani.

I find tactics are more to blame. When is the last time we conceded a goal so early? The attitude is completely wrong from the get go. Animals can smell fear from a mile away and that showed throughout, by panic hoofing 70% of the time. Why is it other teams, even lower down the table teams, play football from the back, yet we're far too scared to or incapable of doing so? That and our inability to win any aerial battles, with one of the tallest average teams in the League. It's really Shambolic.

 

[Jazz]

Phil's been good this season, so I won't hold the Spurs performance against him. I think though that when you pair him with Smalling, they both bring out the worst qualities in each other. They are fine with other partners, but together you're asking for trouble imho.

I hope he redeems himself today.

 

[J_Red 11]

Jones is great, it's Smalling who is the problem in the defence. Every time someone passes him the ball he seems to piss himself with fear and stumble over - it's such a chore to watch him on the ball.

To be honest, Jones isn't any much different than Smalling when he is on the ball. Apart from the Bournemouth game, I never see Jones do something good with the ball to convince me that he's any good on the ball.

 

[Ardis]

Well, it's not like the PL is like the Serie A in the 90s which was dominated by domestic, Italian players. The PL is dominated by foreign players. So obviously one has to look for regular English players in the starting line-up, especially in the top teams. No wonder they commit less errors. They're barely playing, haha. And those who are - like Jones - get overwhelmed against top opposition.

 

[VeevaVee]

Fecking ill
If I'd been injured as much as he has I'd be walking out there ready to shart all over the pitch.

 

[Stobzilla]

To be honest, Jones isn't any much different than Smalling when he is on the ball. Apart from the Bournemouth game, I never see Jones do something good with the ball to convince me that he's any good on the ball.

It's not just "on the ball" (of which btw, Jones is much the better user of the ball and is visually, more comfortable) but also their readiness from a body shape perspective to receive a pass and their availability to receive a pass.

Jones it happens naturally, with Smalling, you can see the cogs turning, usually too slowly as well.

 

[Bojan11]

Him and Smalling just so poor technically.

 

[Dion]

Him and Smalling just so poor technically.

Jones is adequate, Smalling is trying to destroy the concept of recreational sport every time he touches the ball.

 

[Blind]

They were both glacial on the ball yet again but Jones was even slower than Smalling, horrific pairing in games where we have most of the ball.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

I don't rate Jones and haven't for years.

I think pairing him with Smalling makes him look even worse.

 

[Feed Me]

Jones is useless but relative to Smalling he’s like Beckenbauer.

Both of them are absolute garbage on the ball and completely kill any semblance of rhythm in our play.

Wish we’d get rid of both in the summer.

 

[roonster09]

Why didn't he challenge for the header for the goal? That's very poor defending.

Also he is such a brainless player, in the last few mins we got a throw in, he just threw the ball to Valencia and stood outside the field. Valencia then shouted him to get into position to receive the ball and get on with it.

I had high hopes on him, but every week it's going down.