Peterson, Harris, etc....

[Eboue]

But have you ever questioned why that is?

I would say it's more down to poor choices than the colour of someones skin. According to the National Centre for Policy Analysis, there's 2 things people have to do to avoid poverty in America: Graduate college, and don't have kids out of wedlock. Only 6% of those who do are on the poverty line.

So when you apply that to black and white families, you start to see why. 72% of black households are headed by a single mother, whereas only 25% of white households are. As for graduating college, 31% of black students dropout of college, whereas whites are just 14%. Is it any wonder that whites earn more on average? Again, I think it's to do with choice instead of your skin colour. For instance, 17% of Nigerian Americans have masters degrees, and are the top earning black group in the US. They're doing alright.

With that said, is it any wonder fewer whites are in poverty? It comes down to the choices you make. If you make bad ones, it's going to affect you negatively.

oh man. how easy do you think it is to go to college and graduate when you are poor

 

[villain]

But have you ever questioned why that is?

I would say it's more down to poor choices than the colour of someones skin. According to the National Centre for Policy Analysis, there's 2 things people have to do to avoid poverty in America: Graduate college, and don't have kids out of wedlock. Only 6% of those who do are on the poverty line.

So when you apply that to black and white families, you start to see why. 72% of black households are headed by a single mother, whereas only 25% of white households are. As for graduating college, 31% of black students dropout of college, whereas whites are just 14%. Is it any wonder that whites earn more on average? Again, I think it's to do with choice instead of your skin colour. For instance, 17% of Nigerian Americans have masters degrees, and are the top earning black group in the US. They're doing alright.

With that said, is it any wonder fewer whites are in poverty? It comes down to the choices you make. If you make bad ones, it's going to affect you negatively.

Nixon, Reagan & Clinton eras in the 80s & early 90s changed their drug policy to specifically target drugs used within black communities, even though most drug users (At the time - possibly still now) were white. These policies specifically targeted black males, especially in the aftermath of FBI's COINTELPRO program, and were specifically engineered to break up the black family home.

It's not that black people are designed to want to live in single parent homes, and just choose not to be able to afford to go to college.

You've got to look at what contributes these statistics, not just spout them as if they are the singlular reason to form an opinion - then make ridiculous claims such as 'its down to poor choices'.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

But have you ever questioned why that is?

I would say it's more down to poor choices than the colour of someones skin. According to the National Centre for Policy Analysis, there's 2 things people have to do to avoid poverty in America: Graduate college, and don't have kids out of wedlock. Only 6% of those who do are on the poverty line.

So when you apply that to black and white families, you start to see why. 72% of black households are headed by a single mother, whereas only 25% of white households are. This is nothing to do with skin colour, it's within their control. Let's look at graduating college. 31% of black students dropout of college, whereas whites are just 14%. Again, I think it's to do with choice instead of your skin colour. For instance, 17% of Nigerian Americans have masters degrees, and are the top earning black group in the US. They're doing alright.

With that said, is it any wonder fewer whites are in poverty? It comes down to the choices you make. If you make bad ones, it's going to affect you negatively.

I believe it is for a number of reasons, the personal responsibility rules you are referencing (also includes remaining in full time employment) that Shapiro happens to love are definitely important. These ignore inherited hardships though, if a kid is born in a bad area today with a single mother attaining those three keys is harder than it is otherwise. The schools in your area might be terrible, you might have stress at home which affects your mental health, self esteem and focus. If you manage to overcome that and do well at school then you are faced with finding more money than you have ever seen in your life for each year of your proposed degree.

Edit: As for the inherited hardships I mention V1ilian touched on some of them.

Also the simple answer as to why these kids are born in these places is that is where there parents live!

 

[2 man midfield]

Firstly, the idea that those things are indicative of white people.

You know what I mean. Think Dave Chappelle doing his 'white' accent. That guy. Black people have to prove their worth in civilised society, or else they aren't treated on a par with those who do.

Secondly, the idea that ebonics and baggy trousers is a 'problem' and indicative of black people.

When did I say they were a problem?

Thirdly, the idea that those things are mutually exclusive and the way a person acts, talks, or dresses gives society the right to treat them differently - is literal discrimination.

Nope, don't remember saying that either.

I can wear what I want, speak how I want and should still be given the same treatment as everybody else.

That was exactly the point of my first post, in case it wasn't clear.

I think that non-white people experience generalisations that influence how they are perceived in the first encounter between strangers, or in the formative years that can seriously affect their career trajectory (either positively or negatively).

My perception of 'White Privilege' is that we are generally treated as individuals straight away by most people who make decisions that affect us. That said we still get judged by where we are from, the type of school we went to, our accents etc. Being Black will just make getting the step on the ladder more difficult and recovering from set backs really hard because of racial stereotypes, in my opinion.

That's essentially what my first post was saying. I think we agree?

 

[villain]

Black people have to prove their worth in civilised society, or else they aren't treated on a par with those who do.

Okay so you agree black people aren't treated the same as white people then.
Especially if the default is that we have to 'prove our worth'.

 

[2 man midfield]

Okay so you agree black people aren't treated the same as white people then.
Especially if the default is that we have to 'prove our worth'.

Yes! That's what my first post was saying. If you act black as a black person, you're treated far worse than if you act white as a black person. That's a problem, you should be treated the same regardless.

oh man. how easy do you think it is to go to college and graduate when you are poor

But they dropped out. So they must have gotten in to drop out? It's not that they couldn't go, it's that they didn't finish.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

But they dropped out. So they must have gotten in to drop out? It's not that they couldn't go, it's that they didn't finish.

I think I sometimes sound snide over text so I am sorry if it sounds that way. But you know you don't pay for your entire degree up front don't you?

 

[2 man midfield]

I believe it is for a number of reasons, the personal responsibility rules you are referencing (also includes remaining in full time employment) that Shapiro happens to love are definitely important. These ignore inherited hardships though, if a kid is born in a bad area today with a single mother attaining those three keys is harder than it is otherwise. The schools in your area might be terrible, you might have stress at home which affects your mental health, self esteem and focus. If you manage to overcome that and do well at school then you are faced with finding more money than you have ever seen in your life for each year of your proposed degree.

Edit: As for the inherited hardships I mention V1ilian touched on some of them.

Also the simple answer as to why these kids are born in these places is that is where there parents live!

I'm not going to argue there are inherited hardships. 60 years ago black people couldn't even sit down on a bus, you'll never undo all of that in such a short time frame.

 

[villain]

Yes! That's what my first post was saying. If you act black as a black person, you're treated far worse than if you act white as a black person. That's a problem, you should be treated the same regardless.

The notion that you can act white and act black is ridiculous in and of itself.
I also don't see how this means that black people only have one issue facing them in a 'civilised' society, if the society deems them lessor than white people to begin with.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

I'm not going to argue there are inherited hardships. 60 years ago black people couldn't even sit down on a bus, you'll never undo all of that in such a short time frame.

But then I don't really get what you are arguing? How much of an effect they have?

 

[Eboue]

But they dropped out. So they must have gotten in to drop out? It's not that they couldn't go, it's that they didn't finish.

theres so much more to it than money.

 

[2 man midfield]

I think I sometimes sound snide over text so I am sorry if it sounds that way. But you know you don't pay for your entire degree up front don't you?

Only too well, still paying mine off.

The notion that you can act white and act black is ridiculous in and of itself.
I also don't see how this means that black people only have one issue facing them in a 'civilised' society, if the society deems them lessor than white people to begin with.

I'm speaking very broadly here. The stereotype that white people are all in the Illuminati and own yachts, and the stereotype that black people all talk in slang and wear trainers. If you adhere more to the former, you're treated better.

I don't think I said only one, I think I said main issue. I do honestly believe that if you're a black person living in Britain today, you will be treated with far more respect, and your race will be less of an issue in your life, if you do less of the latter. I think it's black culture that people seem to have a problem with.

But then I don't really get what you are arguing? How much of an effect they have?

I think good/bad choices definitely come in to it more than the left is prepared to admit, shall we say. I'm not convinced that in 2017 it's entirely an issue of skin colour. That said, I'm not on the right, and I'm also not black so I'm not going to turn around and say 'so and so isn't an issue'.

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

I’m pleasantly surprised by those on the left politically in this thread who have acknowledged at least some redeeming features in Shapiro and are encouraging constructive debate rather than vitriol and arrogant left wing fundamentalism. Big respect and appreciation as it has renewed some of my faith in this forum.

I don’t agree with Shapiro on several issues but do on most I’d say. He can be a bit smug but I love watching his Q and As where he occasionally has some fantastic debates. I also like Jordan Peterson (but I much prefer his psychology/bible stuff than his political material).

Politics is so tribal at times. I think we can get so lost in the left/right divide that it’s easy to refuse to find merit in anything coming from the other side. I appreciate the likes of Chomsky for their insight and considered approach, for instance. Heard Tony Benn speak in person and he was very good. We had a diversity training day at work last week which was super leftist but the speaker was thoughtful and created an open dialogue. Didn’t agree with everything but he gave me real food for thought rather than putting us on the defensive with how racist we are and how we’re riddled with unconscious contempt for anyone not in our exact demographics.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

I think good/bad choices definitely come in to it more than the left is prepared to admit, shall we say. I'm not convinced that in 2017 it's entirely an issue of skin colour. That said, I'm not on the right, and I'm also not black so I'm not going to turn around and say 'so and so isn't an issue'.

Fair enough, the very far left I would agree. I think it's actually more accurate to combine the two and point to the fact that if you are black (or Hispanic) you are more likely to be born into a situation that allows for far fewer missteps in your goal for success whilst making them more likely.

 

[2 man midfield]

theres so much more to it than money.

Ok, well if there's a chance I might become enlightened I'm definitely willing to listen. What would you say the reasons are that they make up twice the amount of college dropouts?

 

[villain]

I'm speaking very broadly here. The stereotype that white people are all in the Illuminati and own yachts, and the stereotype that black people all talk in slang and wear trainers. If you adhere more to the former, you're treated better.

I don't think I said only one, I think I said main issue. I do honestly believe that if you're a black person living in Britain today, you will be treated with far more respect, and your race will be less of an issue in your life, if you do less of the latter. I think it's black culture that people seem to have a problem with.

I don't even... know where to begin with this quite frankly.

I actually don't think you're understanding what's wrong with the idea that society will treat you better if you're black provided you act 'white'.

As for having a problem with black culture, again - staggering and ridiculous.
I'm genuinely shocked right now.

 

[2 man midfield]

I don't even... know where to begin with this quite frankly.

I actually don't think you're understanding what's wrong with the idea that society will treat you better if you're black provided you act 'white'.

As for having a problem with black culture, again - staggering and ridiculous.
I'm genuinely shocked right now.

You seem to be taking everything I'm saying and thinking that it's me who I'm talking about - it isn't.

 

[Eboue]

Ok, well if there's a chance I might become enlightened I'm definitely willing to listen. What would you say the reasons are that they make up twice the amount of college dropouts?

lets try this. if the reasons arent systemic, what do you suggest they are for? it basically sounds like you are saying there are inherent differences between blacks and whites that cause blacks to make poor decisions?

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Ok, well if there's a chance I might become enlightened I'm definitely willing to listen. What would you say the reasons are that they make up twice the amount of college dropouts?

As an example, what if you did not grow up in a decent home that allowed your self esteem and belief that you can do well at college to flourish? What if you also went to a terrible school that didn't prepare you well enough academically? What if there were not good teachers who focused on your future and preparing you to decide what you wanted to major in, especially considering there are not a lot of successful people in your area who you can interact with and understand what your "calling" might be.

 

[McUnited]

He's smarter than anyone on this forum and can articulate his views better than anyone on this forum. That's about it.

 

[2 man midfield]

lets try this. if the reasons arent systemic, what do you suggest they are for? it basically sounds like you are saying there are inherent differences between blacks and whites that cause blacks to make poor decisions?

No I just think looking at anything with race in mind from the start is a bad idea. There will probably be a stat that says black people own less iguanas, but I don't think that means that it's an issue of skin colour. Some people are poorer than others. More of those will be young than old, but I don't think society is inherently ageist.

 

[villain]

You seem to be taking everything I'm saying and thinking that it's me who I'm talking about - it isn't.

I do honestly believe that if you're a black person living in Britain today, you will be treated with far more respect, and your race will be less of an issue in your life, if you do less of the latter. I think it's black culture that people seem to have a problem with.

If you didn't say this, then who did?

You also introduced black culture as something people have an issue with, for no reason at all - why? If it's not you who thinks this, why would you just randomly bring this into discussion?

 

[Eboue]

No I just think looking at anything with race in mind from the start is a bad idea. There will probably be a stat that says black people own less iguanas, but I don't think that means that it's an issue of skin colour. Some people are poorer than others. More of those will be young than old, but I don't think society is inherently ageist.

you dont think american society is inherently racist?

 

[2 man midfield]

As an example, what if you did not grow up in a decent home that allowed your self esteem and belief that you can do well at college to flourish? What if you also went to a terrible school that didn't prepare you well enough academically? What if there were not good teachers who focused on your future and preparing you to decide what you wanted to major in, especially considering there are not a lot of successful people in your area who you can interact with and understand what your "calling" might be.

I'd say a few of those also applied to me. I'm not denying that some have it harder than others, I just don't see skin colour as being the dividing line.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

He's smarter than anyone on this forum and can articulate his views better than anyone on this forum. That's about it.

To be fair you could probably quote that verbatim in the Wayne Rooney thread.

 

[villain]

"people seem to have a problem with black culture - however, if you don't wear trainers or speak in slang they'll treat you well and your race wont be an issue"

my god.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

I'd say a few of those also applied to me. I'm not denying that some have it harder than others, I just don't see skin colour as being the dividing line.

Statistically how much more likely are those to apply to a black person? That is the issue.

 

[Eboue]

criticizing people for speaking their dialect is really sad

 

[2 man midfield]

If you didn't say this, then who did?


You also introduced black culture as something people have an issue with, for no reason at all - why? If it's not you who thinks this, why would you just randomly bring this into discussion?

I know what I said, and I stand by it. What you're not doing is posting the bit where I said it's a massive problem that this is the case.

I said black culture because if black people acting 'white' are treated with more respect as I believe to be the case, then the natural conclusion you arrive at is that black culture is the thing blocking that, so to speak. I don't think this is all that difficult to be fair.

you dont think american society is inherently racist?

I think there's a lot of individual racists, perhaps more so in America than in Britain. That's the problem as I see it. I would hesitate to say that the actual system is against them in 2017, though.

 

[Eboue]

wow

 

[2 man midfield]

Statistically how much more likely are those to apply to a black person? That is the issue.

But this brings me back to my point earlier. These are people born into single parent families most of the time. White families with two parents are surely going to provide a more fertile environment for an education, no?

 

[Eboue]

every facet of american society is white sepremacy

 

[2 man midfield]

"people seem to have a problem with black culture - however, if you don't wear trainers or speak in slang they'll treat you well and your race wont be an issue"

my god.

I really believe this is true. I'm not saying it's fair, quite the opposite.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

But this brings me back to my point earlier. These are people born into single parent families most of the time. White families with two parents are surely going to provide a more fertile environment for an education, no?

For the most part any 2 parent family are better placed to provide stability etc. Yeah.

I'm getting a sandwich, this thread depresses me and I like sandwiches.

 

[2 man midfield]

criticizing people for speaking their dialect is really sad

I agree. The bastards.

 

[villain]

criticizing people for speaking their dialect is really sad

Yes, but you get to be treated like a human being in return.

I know what I said, and I stand by it. What you're not doing is posting the bit where I said it's a massive problem that this is the case.

I said black culture because if black people acting 'white' are treated with more respect as I believe to be the case, then the natural conclusion you arrive at is that black culture is the thing blocking that, so to speak. I don't think this is all that difficult to be fair.

Yes because it sounds ridiculous - and you're making assumptions, which to me sounds like you're projecting your own views about it.

I don't have the time or energy to break down exactly what's so wrong with your statements, plus there's countless studies and research into this topic.

What I will say is, that you've admitted that black people get treated differently because of their skin colour and perceived stereotypes which are rooted in racism and lack of individual identity.

I find it strange that you can then say, black people face little or no problems in western society.

 

[2 man midfield]

Yes because it sounds ridiculous - and you're making assumptions, which to me sounds like you're projecting your own views about it.

I don't have the time or energy to break down exactly what's so wrong with your statements, plus there's countless studies and research into this topic.

What I will say is, that you've admitted that black people get treated differently because of their skin colour and perceived stereotypes which are rooted in racism and lack of individual identity.

I find it strange that you can then say, black people face little or no problems in western society.

I said they face little to no problems if they act white. Those who fit the stereotype I posted earlier have a rough time of it. And before you act all shocked, that isn't me saying it's good. It's a bad thing. I'm literally posting my interpretation of what I see, and you're acting like I hold those views. I don't.

 

[2 man midfield]

I dont think you can really call the trousers down round the thighs, “i aint aksin bruv” lingo black culture any more than you could call skinhead shell suited scallies white culture. Obviously if i were an employer i wouldnt touch either group with a barge pole.

You see the former more than the latter, I don't see why it's apparently blasphemy to bring this up? We all know those are the guys that get the roughest treatment.

 

[Eboue]

its all coming out now

 

[villain]

I said they face little to no problems if they act white. Those who fit the stereotype I posted earlier have a rough time of it. And before you act all shocked, that isn't me saying it's good. It's a bad thing. I'm literally posting my interpretation of what I see, and you're acting like I hold those views. I don't.

The point is - that means that black people are treated differently, the moment you add a 'if' or 'but' doesn't take away from that fact.
This also applies for black people who 'act white', because that simply implies that they are being tolerated, not accepted - and they have to change themselves in order to be treated better.

So once again - it goes back to the main point.
Racism is still a big deal in the UK, obviously not as bad as the US, but still not some holy grail of racial equality either.

Whether or not you hold these views is irrelevant, because it sounds like you're trying to make a claim that black people don't face racial issues.