Peterson, Harris, etc....

I don't want to get into the labels, especially classical liberal since I'm not sure what that means.*

About the Koch brothers (Charles and David): they are oil billionaires who do a LOT of political activities. They are among the biggest Republican donors, and are involved with Ted Cruz and Mike Pence very heavily. Their main cause is less government - so they fund poiticians and campaigns against universal healthcare (they spent a lot against Obamacare too), for privatising education, and cutting or eliminating environmental regulations. In their home state, they funded Sam Brownback, who pretty much brought income taxes near-zero, but it didn't work out too well.

They also put a lot of money into universities and their own think-tanks, including big funding for global warming denial. Many economics departments in universities are heavily funded by them, and they have a program that helps put economics students who love the free market on the path to professorship. Apart from pouring billions into actual elections, they are even pouring money into college election races, to get fewer left-wing people in college student leadership!

To be fair to them, they fund a lot of other stuff too, random research positions in universities, some museums, etc. Unlike some other Republican donors (Sheldon Adelson) war is not their thing, and unlike others (Mercers) they don't seem to be xenophobic.

I don't like them, and Bernie doesn't either, he has a short link with a summary of their worst positions.
If you have a *long* time to read, this is the article that first made them famous.

As I said, I don't like that label (classical liberal) in particular since it's so confusing, but IMO the Koch brothers are right-wing, and they fund Rubin and hire most of his guests for him so the show probably would reflect that.


*I think I've Peterson use it, and he's not really a liberal, he is quite conservative/traditionalist in his views about women. Sam Harris OTOH does have more liberal views for sure. I think it's a convenient label that helps you keep everyone happy.
Thank you, brilliant post with sources to back it up.
I've skimmed through some of the articles & read your post. Seems like the kind of people on the opposite end of what I'd like to see around the top of a society. And I'd agree, they seem more right-wing than what I'd see as liberal. Very educational, thanks again for the effort. :)
 
I'm going to guess you're referring to this one.



No, that's very mild for Deepak. Look at the below exchange. Mind you, Dawkins himself can be obtuse at times but I share his frustration. When I hear Deepak speak I feel like punching him in the nuts. He really fecking annoys me.

 
No, that's very mild for Deepak. Look at the below exchange. Mind you, Dawkins himself can be obtuse at times but I share his frustration. When I hear Deepak speak I feel like punching him in the nuts. He really fecking annoys me.



:lol:
 
Big Sam Harris fan myself. Been listening to him for years. I find that he has a very coherent and succinct way of making his points. He's great to listen to and has that rare gift of making you feel smarter. Although, as one poster already said in this thread, he kinda loses me when he gets into spirituality/meditation side of things. Over my head that stuff.

I think it's unfortunate that he has been lumped in with people like Peterson or Dave Rubin. He's much more left leaning than those two for a start, and way more intellectually honest. Particularly more so than Rubin, who's basically a hack who parrots the same shite in order to continue making the money; incredibly disingenuous guy. And as for Peterson? Well, the guy is just an obscurantist. He speaks in riddles and prevaricates often when he's properly challenged on his views. In fact, the one criticism i have of Harris is the fact that he had the guy on his podcast twice. The first time was a fecking car crash and he should have left it there.

Harris was great around the time he was feuding with Reza Aslan. The two genuinely hated one another at the time.
 
Harris was great around the time he was feuding with Reza Aslan. The two genuinely hated one another at the time.

Oh god yeah. Still hate each other to this day. I think Harris actually calls him a sociopath. Aslan is a supremely dishonest individual, tbf. Even worse, he's actually aware of his dishonesty as opposed to being genuinely ignorant, but plows forward anyway. Similar to Glenn Greenwald actually.
 
Oh god yeah. Still hate each other to this day. I think Harris actually calls him a sociopath. Aslan is a supremely dishonest individual, tbf. Even worse, he's actually aware of his dishonesty as opposed to being genuinely ignorant, but plows forward anyway. Similar to Glenn Greenwald actually.

Just watched a Rubin appearance on Rogan's podcast where he's complaining about Cenk being obsessed with going toe to toe with Harris during the entire Aslan saga. Hilarious stuff.

 
Just watched a Rubin appearance on Rogan's podcast where he's complaining about Cenk being obsessed with going toe to toe with Harris during the entire Aslan saga. Hilarious stuff.



I remember watching the 3 hour debate between Harris and Cenk on youtube. It was awful. Cenk just completely misconstrued everything Harris said and straw manned him at every opportunity. It's so bloody infuriating to watch. If you have a problem with some of Sam's views, then address it in an honest way. People like Cenk and others of his ilk are just incapable of doing so.

One thing i admire about Sam is his ability to remain calm throughout most of the debate. All the years of meditation really paid off for him
 
Live debating is largely just a dick waving contest.

An ability for quick witted retorts doesn't make you more likely to offer worthwhile contributions to serious topics.
 
I remember watching the 3 hour debate between Harris and Cenk on youtube. It was awful. Cenk just completely misconstrued everything Harris said and straw manned him at every opportunity. It's so bloody infuriating to watch. If you have a problem with some of Sam's views, then address it in an honest way. People like Cenk and others of his ilk are just incapable of doing so.

One thing i admire about Sam is his ability to remain calm throughout most of the debate. All the years of meditation really paid off for him

It's good to know Sam Harris's meditation has improved his audiences appreciation of him condoning the genocide and mass murder of Muslim's around the world.

Mods Note - this was sarcasm, I was previously banned for making generalisations about certain Muslims. But Sam Harris makes a living off far worse generalisations that I'd never dream of making while justifying horrific acts against them.

Harris who said when Trump won 'oh we shouldn't have given a voice to black lives matter'. Sam Harris thinks black people shouldn't protest when they're friends and family are murdered in case white people vote for someone he doesn't want.
 
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It's good to know Sam Harris's meditation has improved his audiences appreciation of him condoning the genocide and mass murder of Muslim's around the world.

Mods Note - this was sarcasm, I was previously banned for making generalisations about certain Muslims. But Sam Harris makes a living off far worse generalisations that I'd never dream of making while justifying horrific acts against them.

Harris who said when Trump won 'oh we shouldn't have given a voice to black lives matter'. Sam Harris thinks black people shouldn't protest when they're friends and family are murdered in case white people vote for someone he doesn't want.

Not entire sure what your point is here ?
 
Not entire sure what your point is here ?

It's more of a query of which of those bigoted positions that Sam takes appeals to his supporters the most. Are they more bigoted against one group over the other? Or is it equal?
 
It's good to know Sam Harris's meditation has improved his audiences appreciation of him condoning the genocide and mass murder of Muslim's around the world.

Mods Note - this was sarcasm, I was previously banned for making generalisations about certain Muslims. But Sam Harris makes a living off far worse generalisations that I'd never dream of making while justifying horrific acts against them.

Harris who said when Trump won 'oh we shouldn't have given a voice to black lives matter'. Sam Harris thinks black people shouldn't protest when they're friends and family are murdered in case white people vote for someone he doesn't want.

Ok mate...
 
It's more of a query of which of those bigoted positions that Sam takes appeals to his supporters the most. Are they more bigoted against one group over the other? Or is it equal?

What bigoted positions ? He seems mostly interested in taking on bad ideas, like religion and all.
 
What bigoted positions ? He seems mostly interested in taking on bad ideas, like religion and all.

He has repeatedly made clear that he thinks Islam is uniquely threatening: "While the other major world religions have been fertile sources of intolerance, it is clear that the doctrine of Islam poses unique problems for the emergence of a global civilization." He has insisted that there are unique dangers from Muslims possessing nuclear weapons, as opposed to nice western Christians (the only ones to ever use them) or those kind Israeli Jews: "It should be of particular concern to us that the beliefs of devout Muslims pose a special problem for nuclear deterrence." In his 2005 "End of Faith", he claimed that "Islam, more than any other religion human beings have devised, has all the makings of a thoroughgoing cult of death."
...
This is not a critique of religion generally; it is a relentless effort to depict Islam as the supreme threat. Based on that view, Harris, while depicting the Iraq war as a humanitarian endeavor, has proclaimed that "we are not at war with terrorism. We are at war with Islam." He has also decreed that "this is not to say that we are at war with all Muslims, but we are absolutely at war with millions more than have any direct affiliation with Al Qaeda." "We" - the civilized peoples of the west - are at war with "millions" of Muslims, he says. Indeed, he repeatedly posits a dichotomy between "civilized" people and Muslims: "All civilized nations must unite in condemnation of a theology that now threatens to destabilize much of the earth."
...
Harris has used his views about Islam to justify a wide range of vile policies aimed primarily if not exclusively at Muslims, from torture ("there are extreme circumstances in which I believe that practices like 'water-boarding' may not only be ethically justifiable, but ethically necessary"); to steadfast support for Israel, which he considers morally superior to its Muslim adversaries ("In their analyses of US and Israeli foreign policy, liberals can be relied on to overlook the most basic moral distinctions. For instance, they ignore the fact that Muslims intentionally murder noncombatants, while we and the Israelis (as a rule) seek to avoid doing so. . . . there is no question that the Israelis now hold the moral high ground in their conflict with Hamas and Hezbollah"); to anti-Muslim profiling ("We should profile Muslims, or anyone who looks like he or she could conceivably be Muslim, and we should be honest about it"); to state violence ("On questions of national security, I am now as wary of my fellow liberals as I am of the religious demagogues on the Christian right. This may seem like frank acquiescence to the charge that 'liberals are soft on terrorism.' It is, and they are").
...
I find extremely suspect the behavior of westerners like Harris (and Hitchens and Dawkins) who spend the bulk of their time condemning the sins of other, distant peoples rather than the bulk of their time working against the sins of their own country. That's particularly true of Americans, whose government has brought more violence, aggression, suffering, misery, and degradation to the world over the last decade than any other.
...
Tellingly, Harris wrote in 2004 that "we are now mired in a religious war in Iraq and elsewhere." But by this, he did not mean that the US and the west have waged an aggressive attack based at least in part on religious convictions. He meant that only Them - those Muslims over there, whose country we invaded and destroyed - were engaged in a vicious and primitive religious war. As usual, so obsessed is he with the supposed sins of Muslims that he is blinded to the far worse sins from his own government and himself: the attack on Iraq and its accompanying expressions of torture, slaughter, and the most horrific abuses imaginable.
...
Indeed, continually depicting Muslims as the supreme evil - even when compared to the west's worst monsters - is par for Harris' course, as when he inveighed:

Unless liberals realize that there are tens of millions of people in the Muslim world who are far scarier than Dick Cheney, they will be unable to protect civilization from its genuine enemies."


Just ponder that. To Harris, there are "tens of millions" of Muslims "far scarier" then the US political leader who aggressively invaded and destroyed a nation of 26 million people, constructed a worldwide regime of torture, oversaw a network of secret prisons beyond the reach of human rights groups, and generally imposed on the world his "Dark Side". That is the Harris worldview: obsessed with bad acts of foreign Muslims, almost entirely blind to - if not supportive of - the far worse acts of westerners like himself.

Or consider this disgusting passage:

"The outrage that Muslims feel over US and British foreign policy is primarily the product of theological concerns. Devout Muslims consider it a sacrilege for infidels to depose a Muslim tyrant and occupy Muslim lands — no matter how well intentioned the infidels or malevolent the tyrant. Because of what they believe about God and the afterlife and the divine provenance of the Koran, devout Muslims tend to reflexively side with other Muslims, no matter how sociopathic their behavior."

Right: can you believe those primitive, irrational Muslims get angry when their countries are invaded, bombed and occupied and have dictators imposed on them rather than exuding gratitude toward the superior civilized people who do all that - all because of their weird, inscrutable religion that makes them dislike things such as foreign invasions, bombing campaigns and externally-imposed tyrants? And did you know that only Muslims - but not rational westerners like Harris - "reflexively side" with their own kind? This, from the same person who hails the Iraq war as something that should produce gratitude from the invaded population toward the "civilized human beings" - people like him - who invaded and destroyed their country.
...
Perhaps the most repellent claim Harris made to me was that Islamophobia is fictitious and non-existent, "a term of propaganda designed to protect Islam from the forces of secularism by conflating all criticism of it with racism and xenophobia". How anyone can observe post-9/11 political discourse in the west and believe this is truly mystifying. The meaning of "Islamophobia" is every bit as clear as "anti-semitism" or "racism" or "sexism" and all sorts of familiar, related concepts. It signifies (1) irrational condemnations of all members of a group or the group itself based on the bad acts of specific individuals in that group; (2) a disproportionate fixation on that group for sins committed at least to an equal extent by many other groups, especially one's own; and/or (3) sweeping claims about the members of that group unjustified by their actual individual acts and beliefs. I believe all of those definitions fit Harris quite well, as evinced by this absurd and noxious overgeneralization from Harris:

The only future devout Muslims can envisage — as Muslims — is one in which all infidels have been converted to Islam, politically subjugated, or killed."

That is utter garbage: and dangerous garbage at that. It is no more justifiable than saying that the only future which religious Jews - as Jews - can envision is one in which non-Jews live in complete slavery and subjugation: a claim often made by anti-semites based on highly selective passages from the Talmud. It is the same tactic that says Christians - as Christians - can only envisage the extreme subjugation of women and violence against non-believers based not only on the conduct of some Christians but on selective passages from the Bible. Few would have difficultly understanding why such claims about Jews and Christians are intellectually bankrupt and menacing.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/apr/03/sam-harris-muslim-animus
 

Looks like a lot of quote mining from Glenn Greenwald. They famously don't like eachother. Harris is well known for calling out bad ideas so its not a surprise that religion apologists are annoyed over his views.

In any case, Sam has debunked these criticisms here

https://samharris.org/response-to-controversy/

and here where he publishes his emails with Greenwald.

https://samharris.org/dear-fellow-liberal2/
 
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Looks like a lot of quote mining from Glenn Greenwald. They famously don't like eachother. Harris is well known for calling out bad ideas so its not a surprise that religion apologists are a bit butthurt over his views.

I didn't know that quoting someone to explain why his views are bad was a devious tactic. You asked why he's a bigot. The article shows that he supports torture, ignores the hundreds of thousands of Muslims killed by western foreign policy to paint Muslims as unthinking savages when they oppose US intervention, implies that Muslims aren't civilised humans, and that they will kill everyone on the planet.
 
I didn't know that quoting someone to explain why his views are bad was a devious tactic. You asked why he's a bigot. The article shows that he supports torture, ignores the hundreds of thousands of Muslims killed by western foreign policy to paint Muslims as unthinking savages when they oppose US intervention, implies that Muslims aren't civilised humans, and that they will kill everyone on the planet.

Selectively quoting someone out of context can be very misleading, even more so when one is attempting spin a narrative of racism against someone.
 
Selectively quoting someone out of context can be very misleading, even more so when one is attempting spin a narrative of racism against someone.

That said, what I did say in my emails with Harris - and what I unequivocally affirm again now - is not that Harris is a "racist", but rather that he and others like him spout and promote Islamophobia under the guise of rational atheism. I've long believed this to be true and am glad it is finally being dragged out into open debate. These specific atheism advocates have come to acquire significant influence, often for the good. But it is past time that the darker aspects of their worldview receive attention.

Whether Islamophobia is a form of "racism" is a semantic issue in which I'm not interested for purposes of this discussion. The vast majority of Muslims are non-white; as a result, when a white westerner becomes fixated on attacking their religion and advocating violence and aggression against them, as Harris has done, I understand why some people (such as Hussain) see racism at play: that, for reasons I recently articulated, is a rational view to me. But "racism" is not my claim here about Harris. Irrational anti-Muslim animus is.

Can you explain the context for believing 1.2bn people are uncivilised and incapable of sustaining peaceful civilisation?
 
Yeah, Harris & Hitchens skewed heavily right when it came to real world solutions for their anti-theist outlooks. It's one of the things I always found uncomfortable about their roundtable smugfests (along with Hitch's angry dad misogyny) But then the problem with philosophy in general is that's its all critique and hypothetics posed from a safe distance, and rarely engages in the dirty, grey, ground level business of solutions and their consequences. It's essentially the political version of film criticism. And however witty and insightful you may find Mark Kermode, he's never had to actually make a film...

So while I'm definitely not a fan of Harris's particularly aggressive brand of anti-Islamism, it's more the method and intensity I oppose, rather than the secular ideals behind them. He's right to say Islam poses the greatest threat of the modern Abrahamic faiths. But not because "dems Muslims R all evil, Grrrr", obviously, but simply due to it being the least socially and theistically evolved of the powerful major World religions. Because it was written 600 years after the Bible, as a kind of 5th draft plot fixing fan edit, is unquestionable-by-design as the apparent literal word of God, and is currently responsible for the majority of the modern World's remaining Theocratic regimes. These are all problematic things that shouldn't be taboo to discuss, critique or attack. Particularly for liberals. And that's before we even enter the thorny realm of 21st Century Terrorism.

Sure, the ills of modern Islamism may not have a patch on the long and violent legacy of Christianity, which is definitely the kind of cultural context Harris gleefully ignores. But at the same time, so what? What does this kind of placid Whattaboutism achieve in the battle for a better, smarter, fairer modern world? Should every potential ideology be allowed a crazy, violent period of "difficult adolescence" just because Christianity got one?

One of the reasons smart, largely left leaning philosophical polemicists like Harris & Hitchens (who despite his later Hawkishness, was an actual Communist at one point, lets not forget) have been succeeded by infinitely dumber, right leaning Indie film villains like Shapiro and Peterson, is because the old liberal ideals of speaking rational truth to (often Religious) power, and punching up at the great Christian dominancy, have been replaced by the new liberal ideals of protecting minorities - even otherwise powerful and conservative religious ones - from harm at all cost. And in the well meaning crossfire, we've conceded one of our most sacred weapons, and cowed a lot of potential allies in fear of being insensitive.
 
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Sure, the ills of modern Islamism may not have a patch on the long and violent legacy of Christianity, which is definitely the kind of cultural context Harris gleefully ignores.

I honestly don't care about the historical baggage of either religion, what bothers me more is that he ignores the history and current political reality of the Middle East as well. If you're asserting that a certain group of people is uniquely dangerous, and say nothing about another group which has ruled, controlled, and invaded the former for the last 2 centuries, that's a huge gap in analysis. Would al-Qaeda exist if the USSR hadn't invaded Afghanistan? Would al-Qaeda have existed if the CIA didn't finance all the mujahideen groups? More provocatively: would al-Qaeda have got the necessary internal acceptance for 9/11 if US troops weren't in Saudi Arabia? What would Iran look like if the US and UK didn't conspire to remove its popular secular leader? Would ISIS have existed if the US hadn't invaded Iraq? Would Indonesia be different if the US hadn't financed a genocidal army there? Sykes-Picot. The Balfour declaration.

Obviously I can't claim to know the answers to these questions. But Harris focuses on religion as the main reason for animosity between Muslims and the west, while encouraging more of these interventions. Older western actions are ignored and newer ones are rational responses to uncivilised people. It paints a compelling picture - the savage oriental, who cares only for his tribal identity, and is willing to end the world for it. Versus the rational westerner who bombs these people with extreme restraint, only to civilise them.
 
Looks like a lot of quote mining from Glenn Greenwald. They famously don't like eachother. Harris is well known for calling out bad ideas so its not a surprise that religion apologists are annoyed over his views.

In any case, Sam has debunked these criticisms here

https://samharris.org/response-to-controversy/

and here where he publishes his emails with Greenwald.

https://samharris.org/dear-fellow-liberal2/

It's not only that. The retorts on most of his arguments aren't even based on refuting the argument but just make everything he writes seem like it's racist and Islamophobic. How about discussing if he actually has a point or not and not attacking him with snide, sarcastic remarks that assume to much meaning behind his words and don't stay honest to what he actually said.
 
I honestly don't care about the historical baggage of either religion, what bothers me more is that he ignores the history and current political reality of the Middle East as well. If you're asserting that a certain group of people is uniquely dangerous, and say nothing about another group which has ruled, controlled, and invaded the former for the last 2 centuries, that's a huge gap in analysis. Would al-Qaeda exist if the USSR hadn't invaded Afghanistan? Would al-Qaeda have existed if the CIA didn't finance all the mujahideen groups? More provocatively: would al-Qaeda have got the necessary internal acceptance for 9/11 if US troops weren't in Saudi Arabia? What would Iran look like if the US and UK didn't conspire to remove its popular secular leader? Would ISIS have existed if the US hadn't invaded Iraq? Would Indonesia be different if the US hadn't financed a genocidal army there? Sykes-Picot. The Balfour declaration.

Obviously I can't claim to know the answers to these questions. But Harris focuses on religion as the main reason for animosity between Muslims and the west, while encouraging more of these interventions. Older western actions are ignored and newer ones are rational responses to uncivilised people. It paints a compelling picture - the savage oriental, who cares only for his tribal identity, and is willing to end the world for it. Versus the rational westerner who bombs these people with extreme restraint, only to civilise them.

The major flaw in your argument is that Islamic terrorism isn't just confined to western targets. China has suffered attacks up in the north west province where the Uighurs are located. As far as I'm aware China has no recent history of invading, or bombing, any Arab countries, & yet they are seen as a legitimate target. Let's not forget also that most victims of Islamic terrorism are Muslims, most just collateral damage in the ongoing war between Shia & Sunni's. A war that started well before the nasty westerners stuck their noses into middle east affairs.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/01/the-islamic-state-pledged-to-attack-china-next-heres-why/
 
One of the reasons smart, largely left leaning philosophical polemicists like Harris & Hitchens (who despite his later Hawkishness, was an actual Communist at one point, lets not forget) have been succeeded by infinitely dumber, right leaning Indie film villains like Shapiro and Peterson, is because the old liberal ideals of speaking rational truth to (often Religious) power, and punching up at the great Christian dominancy, have been replaced by the new liberal ideals of protecting minorities - even otherwise powerful and conservative religious ones - from harm at all cost. And in the well meaning crossfire, we've conceded one of our most sacred weapons, and cowed a lot of potential allies in fear of being insensitive.

Brilliantly put. Exactly how I feel but could never have expressed the same in such a concise manner.
 
Yeah, Harris & Hitchens skewed heavily right when it came to real world solutions for their anti-theist outlooks. It's one of the things I always found uncomfortable about their roundtable smugfests (along with Hitch's angry dad misogyny) But then the problem with philosophy in general is that's its all critique and hypothetics posed from a safe distance, and rarely engages in the dirty, grey, ground level business of solutions and their consequences. It's essentially the political version of film criticism. And however witty and insightful you may find Mark Kermode, he's never had to actually make a film...

So while I'm definitely not a fan of Harris's particularly aggressive brand of anti-Islamism, it's more the method and intensity I oppose, rather than the secular ideals behind them. He's right to say Islam poses the greatest threat of the modern Abrahamic faiths. But not because "dems Muslims R all evil, Grrrr", obviously, but simply due to it being the least socially and theistically evolved of the powerful major World religions. Because it was written 600 years after the Bible, as a kind of 5th draft plot fixing fan edit, is unquestionable-by-design as the apparent literal word of God, and is currently responsible for the majority of the modern World's remaining Theocratic regimes. These are all problematic things that shouldn't be taboo to discuss, critique or attack. Particularly for liberals. And that's before we even enter the thorny realm of 21st Century Terrorism.

Sure, the ills of modern Islamism may not have a patch on the long and violent legacy of Christianity, which is definitely the kind of cultural context Harris gleefully ignores. But at the same time, so what? What does this kind of placid Whattaboutism achieve in the battle for a better, smarter, fairer modern world? Should every potential ideology be allowed a crazy, violent period of "difficult adolescence" just because Christianity got one?

One of the reasons smart, largely left leaning philosophical polemicists like Harris & Hitchens (who despite his later Hawkishness, was an actual Communist at one point, lets not forget) have been succeeded by infinitely dumber, right leaning Indie film villains like Shapiro and Peterson, is because the old liberal ideals of speaking rational truth to (often Religious) power, and punching up at the great Christian dominancy, have been replaced by the new liberal ideals of protecting minorities - even otherwise powerful and conservative religious ones - from harm at all cost. And in the well meaning crossfire, we've conceded one of our most sacred weapons, and cowed a lot of potential allies in fear of being insensitive.

That's a very good post. I've a lot of time for Sam Harris but - like anyone who is forced to repeatedly defend their ideas - he's got a little too entrenched in some of his views. Nonetheless, his argument is essentially sound and the accusations of being a racist are well over the top. As usual, I want to blame social media for the way he's now seen as an enemy of left-leaning liberals. Constant online bickering removes all nuance and everyone has to take a side. Which leaves no room for the centre. It's Greenwald or Shapiro, take your pick. A shitty state of affairs, if you ask me.
 
That's a very good post. I've a lot of time for Sam Harris but - like anyone who is forced to repeatedly defend their ideas - he's got a little too entrenched in some of his views. Nonetheless, his argument is essentially sound and the accusations of being a racist are well over the top. As usual, I want to blame social media for the way he's now seen as an enemy of left-leaning liberals. Constant online bickering removes all nuance and everyone has to take a side. Which leaves no room for the centre. It's Greenwald or Shapiro, take your pick. A shitty state of affairs, if you ask me.
If you think Greenwald and Shapiro are the same then you might need a re think.
 
I mean the same as in - Greenwald is just the left wing version(Greenwald is more of a liberal) of someone like Shapiro or vice versa.

My point was in the context of the the discussion about Islamophobia that preceded it. I'd say that their opinions on this issue represent the two (most popular) extremes fairly well.
 
My point was in the context of the the discussion about Islamophobia that preceded it. I'd say that their opinions on this issue represent the two (most popular) extremes fairly well.
Shapiro view on foreign are actually far closer to Mr Logic(Harris)





and Greenwald views are hardly extreme.




And none of this opinions are extreme anyway, Shapiro views are literally the history of Western foreign policy and Greenwald views are historical pretty standard liberal/left(The only reason I would ague to why Greenwald views seems extreme is because the ''centre'' has been dragged so far to the right).
 
Meh. To me they're both exactly the same in that they don't allow any room for nuance, or middle ground when this issue is being discussed. The problem is either 100% down to Western foreign policy or 100% down to the flaws of an inflexible and inherently violent religion. Neither of them would concede that the other makes any reasonable points when, in reality, they both do (irrespective of your opinion on their broader views in general; I think Shapiro is a prat fwiw)
 
That's a very good post. I've a lot of time for Sam Harris but - like anyone who is forced to repeatedly defend their ideas - he's got a little too entrenched in some of his views. Nonetheless, his argument is essentially sound and the accusations of being a racist are well over the top. As usual, I want to blame social media for the way he's now seen as an enemy of left-leaning liberals. Constant online bickering removes all nuance and everyone has to take a side. Which leaves no room for the centre. It's Greenwald or Shapiro, take your pick. A shitty state of affairs, if you ask me.

Big fan of Harris myself, but i would agree with that. I tend to listen to most of his podcasts, but there's only so many times i can listen to the same arguments being regurgitated before i actually get tired of it myself. It's something that he has addressed on a few podcasts in the past. May have been in one of the Q&A's where i think someone asked him the question does he ever get tired of bringing up the same points over and over again regarding islam/islamism, etc. He basically goes onto say that he would like to move on to other things, but as long as there are people like Greenwald or Reza Aslan out there continually misquoting him or taking everything he says (purposefully) out of context, then he's always going to be defending himself and reiterating the same arguments and ideas that he's already made previously.

As you said, the most important thing is that his arguments are mostly sound and i think he's coming at it from an intellectually honest point of view. Even though people may accuse him of being a little strident in how he expresses those views.
 
Big fan of Harris myself, but i would agree with that. I tend to listen to most of his podcasts, but there's only so many times i can listen to the same arguments being regurgitated before i actually get tired of it myself. It's something that he has addressed on a few podcasts in the past. May have been in one of the Q&A's where i think someone asked him the question does he ever get tired of bringing up the same points over and over again regarding islam/islamism, etc. He basically goes onto say that he would like to move on to other things, but as long as there are people like Greenwald or Reza Aslan out there continually misquoting him or taking everything he says (purposefully) out of context, then he's always going to be defending himself and reiterating the same arguments and ideas that he's already made previously.

As you said, the most important thing is that his arguments are mostly sound and i think he's coming at it from an intellectually honest point of view. Even though people may accuse him of being a little strident in how he expresses those views.

He also made the point (I think to Russel Brand?) that he actually devotes only a tiny proportion of his day to day life worrying about the jihadist threat. It just happens to be one of his more controversial and topical opinions, so he spends a disproportionate amount of time discussing it on public fora. The whole discussion is actually kind of tiresome at this point. The exact same points and rebuttals on both sides. I sometimes get the impression that he's as bored of talking about the topic as we are listening to it!

Someone else who gets pigeon-holed that I'm less fond of is Jordan Peterson. I've no time for his misogyny but some of his stuff on self authoring is very solid, evidence-based and potentially of great help to anyone who tries it out. But that's more or less irrelevant now as he's the go to man to say something controversial about anything to do with gender. Another cartoonish one dimensional character, to be either demonised or worshipped depending on your politics.
 
He also made the point (I think to Russel Brand?) that he actually devotes only a tiny proportion of his day to day life worrying about the jihadist threat. It just happens to be one of his more controversial and topical opinions, so he spends a disproportionate amount of time discussing it on public fora. The whole discussion is actually kind of tiresome at this point. The exact same points and rebuttals on both sides. I sometimes get the impression that he's as bored of talking about the topic as we are listening to it!

Someone else who gets pigeon-holed that I'm less fond of is Jordan Peterson. I've no time for his misogyny but some of his stuff on self authoring is very solid, evidence-based and potentially of great help to anyone who tries it out. But that's more or less irrelevant now as he's the go to man to say something controversial about anything to do with gender. Another cartoonish one dimensional character, to be either demonised or worshipped depending on your politics.

I think that is absolutely the case. It's a shame that he has to defend himself against these halfwits, because i think Sam is at his best when he is challenged in a honest and smart way about his ideas. His best podcast, imo, was the one with Dan Carlin. I'm a fan of Carlin so was pleased to learn that he would be a guest on the podcast, and it didn't disappoint. I thought Dan done a fantastic job of providing pushback on some of Sam's views in and honest and cordial way, while also being forceful in doing so. I think it's something that Sam appreciated and i know i certainly did as a listener.


As for Peterson, i'm not really a fan either. I don't profess to know a great deal about the man, or about the stuff that you mentioned above that you say has some merit to it. Funny enough, i actually liked him the first time i became aware of him. It was to do with the gender pronoun debate on campus- which is the point where i think 90% of his audience first became aware of him. I found that he was clearly very smart and erudite and would run rings around those who debated him on the subject. But as time went on, i just found him to be a bit of an obscurantist. He would often mask some of his more bat shit crazy ideas in language that was so verbose and meandering i just found it extremely dishonest. This circuitous way of debating just really turned me off him. I think this cartoonish figure that he's almost become to people who oppose him has to do with the fact that he's become a bit of a self parody.
I have no doubt that there is some validity to what he says on certain subjects, and nuance is sometimes lost on those who dislike him, be he shrouds it in such bullshit and impenetrable language that i just can't be arsed to give him the time off day!
 
I think that is absolutely the case. It's a shame that he has to defend himself against these halfwits, because i think Sam is at his best when he is challenged in a honest and smart way about his ideas. His best podcast, imo, was the one with Dan Carlin. I'm a fan of Carlin so was pleased to learn that he would be a guest on the podcast, and it didn't disappoint. I thought Dan done a fantastic job of providing pushback on some of Sam's views in and honest and cordial way, while also being forceful in doing so. I think it's something that Sam appreciated and i know i certainly did as a listener.


As for Peterson, i'm not really a fan either. I don't profess to know a great deal about the man, or about the stuff that you mentioned above that you say has some merit to it. Funny enough, i actually liked him the first time i became aware of him. It was to do with the gender pronoun debate on campus- which is the point where i think 90% of his audience first became aware of him. I found that he was clearly very smart and erudite and would run rings around those who debated him on the subject. But as time went on, i just found him to be a bit of an obscurantist. He would often mask some of his more bat shit crazy ideas in language that was so verbose and meandering i just found it extremely dishonest. This circuitous way of debating just really turned me off him. I think this cartoonish figure that he's almost become to people who oppose him has to do with the fact that he's become a bit of a self parody.
I have no doubt that there is some validity to what he says on certain subjects, and nuance is sometimes lost on those who dislike him, be he shrouds it in such bullshit and impenetrable language that i just can't be arsed to give him the time off day!

His "debate" with Harris about the meaning of truth (on the latter's podcast) is a classic of this genre.
 
I honestly don't care about the historical baggage of either religion, what bothers me more is that he ignores the history and current political reality of the Middle East as well. If you're asserting that a certain group of people is uniquely dangerous, and say nothing about another group which has ruled, controlled, and invaded the former for the last 2 centuries, that's a huge gap in analysis. Would al-Qaeda exist if the USSR hadn't invaded Afghanistan? Would al-Qaeda have existed if the CIA didn't finance all the mujahideen groups? More provocatively: would al-Qaeda have got the necessary internal acceptance for 9/11 if US troops weren't in Saudi Arabia? What would Iran look like if the US and UK didn't conspire to remove its popular secular leader? Would ISIS have existed if the US hadn't invaded Iraq? Would Indonesia be different if the US hadn't financed a genocidal army there? Sykes-Picot. The Balfour declaration.

Obviously I can't claim to know the answers to these questions. But Harris focuses on religion as the main reason for animosity between Muslims and the west, while encouraging more of these interventions. Older western actions are ignored and newer ones are rational responses to uncivilised people. It paints a compelling picture - the savage oriental, who cares only for his tribal identity, and is willing to end the world for it. Versus the rational westerner who bombs these people with extreme restraint, only to civilise them.

I don't think that's Harris' line of inquiry. He's simply interested in critiquing the ideas on the merits of whether they are good or bad. Even if a particular religion or region have had a rough time of late, that still doesn't mean the ideas themselves that undergird a doctrine can't be critiqued, especially since he's often criticizing religious texts that predate much of what has happened recently.
 
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His "debate" with Harris about the meaning of truth (on the latter's podcast) is a classic of this genre.

Oh absolutely. That was his nadir for me. He has an event with him coming up. Not sure what to make of it. Interested i guess. I just hope they don't arrive at a similar impasse otherwise it will be a short listen for me.