I did watch the games and it would appear to be more of a mental collapse for me.
We'll have to agree to disagree here as I'm not having that he needs 8 more WC players to win the CL. He had good enough squads to do it at both of his last two clubs.
'Pep' Guardiola sack watch
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
- Start date
I did watch the games and it would appear to be more of a mental collapse for me.
We'll have to agree to disagree here as I'm not having that he needs 8 more WC players to win the CL. He had good enough squads to do it at both of his last two clubs.
I'd agree with most of that. I do think there's something in the mentality he instills that when the system fails and the opposition scores, especially in one-off games at the highest level, they have a period where they could let in any amount of goals.
There was always the old thing about Barca as well that they weren't great at the back but good luck getting the ball off them often enough to test them.
On the Fergie thing I do feel he was hamstrung by the board at times. If you look at what happened with the Ronaldo money, for example.
This stuff about great chess battles of tactical geniuses in glorious cup ties is just cheap mythology. Guardiola indeed seems to have problem in those kind of matches, but it's due to thinking too much about tactics, not being "outsmarted". All these people are sport coaches, and not great thinkers of our time. Psychology and momentum are more important in elite knockout ties. Overthinking and too much planning are often a wrong choice there. And there's also the sheer randomness of cup football, the fact that is routinely disregarded.
So barring Zidane Ancelotti and now Klopp who isn’t a mediocre cup manager?
Most managers are indeed mediocre outside of the three aforementioned. It's a niche most teams and managers barely play cup games, there is probably a few names in lower leagues that I know nothing about but at the top most managers are just average in that format.
There are quite a few more managers that are great cup managers. Heynckes, Simeone (despite not having won the CL yet) in the last few years would be some of those that got their teams playing consistently well or even above their normal levels in the CL. I wouldn't even classify winning the CL as mandatory either, since Chelsea under Martinez for instance pretty much won it by sheer luck and not being well-coached at all. Actually the last round against Madrid was the first time I recall seeing a Pep team not convincingly and deservingly losing against some other team of similar calibre. We'll see how well they are doing in the next rounds when facing someone like us or Atl. Madrid/Barca/PSG, I'm honestly curious.
I think in the last 2 CL campaigns two key things happened, I'm not sure about the fatigue but in the first leg against liverpool not getting a stonewall pen on Sane and then in the home leg for the goal to be disallowed bang on half time to get it back to 2-0 played a big part, (though I do think 'pool would have got an away goal anyway so that's moot)
Against spurs Aguero missing the pen after 10 mins in the first leg and they didn't recover in that game at all, I don't think either game had anything to do with Guardiola being outcoached, sometimes players don't perform, I also think someone missed a pen at a key stage in one of the Semi's when he was at Bayern, as a coach you can't account for that and just have to hope the players can react positively.
I'm just going to put it here.
Last season Liverpool went for both the CL and The EPL and nearly won them both. They got record breaking points. This season they were doing well in the CL but were denied by goalkeeping and a resilient Athletico. The season before last they simply were not good enough to win the EPL
Ok, I will set out my opinion one more time, because you seem to be confusing everything I have said. It’s a very simple take and it’s my own personal opinion.
1. I take exception to the press/coverage lauding his time in England. That is true. I’m not going to cry about it, just take a casual exception on a football forum. No crusade. He is a quality coach.
2. He had access to world class players when he arrived (Aguero, Kompany, KdB, Silva etc...). More were added (Sané, Sterling etc...). I am NOT arguing that work didn’t need to be done. I am arguing that he had a strong base and spent a fortune. That’s all.
3. I NEVER suggested Stones and Mangala were world class, so stop distorting what I said. They are very expensive mistakes which he was allowed to make with no consequences. He didn’t pick the right player like Klopp did when he finally spent big money. He got it wrong, several times. Walker, while not world class, was the best RB in the league at the time and went for a record fee. Another position where he had the best on offer.
4. I am fully aware that those players were at the club at different times, but the squad was constantly added to with very expensive talents until he had far and away the best eleven and best bench in the league. The expectation, for any manager, would have been to win in the seasons he did, which he did. He won when he was expected to win.
5. Silva was one of the best players in the league when he arrived. He was a world class talent and already a legend of the PL.
6. My argument is that, while he has done it in some style, he has not done anything that wasn’t expected of him given the players and massive wealth at his disposal. That is my only argument and always has been. His time at City has not been genial for me. It’s been a club with an unfair advantage winning most of their games.
Don’t put words in my mouth and don’t try and distort what is a very simple argument. I wasn’t going to reply again, but trying to make out I was claiming Mangala was world class or that I was focusing on his first season is just lies.
I haven’t moved any goalposts. It’s too simple an argument. I will write it in one short paragraph and then I am done. I don’t care if you take exception to some trivial detail or not...
‘His time in England is lauded as being genial by some. I don’t think it is because of the players available to him and the money spent. I think he has just met the expectations that come through having the advantages that he has had.’
You can debate those advantages and lie about Mangala and Stones all you want, but it’s a perfectly valid opinion to have. The financials (at least the ones we know about) are there in black and white.
How's that a reasonable excuse though? Especially when they actually scored 2 goals that was going to qualify them but then ended up conceeding 4. City against Tottenham didn't even lose the tie but were eliminated on away goal rule after Sterling's goal was disallowed and Aguero missing a penalty.
But somehow your post seems like you're reducing Liverpool's elimination to them not being lucky and City's to them not being good enough, which is weird...
Pep probably has his finger on that resign button depending on the ban.
2 years gone.
0-1 years stays.
2 years gone.
0-1 years stays.
I also find it when people talk about Pep being in a privileged situation. Well he won the treble in the 1st season of his first job in a top club and created what most people consider the best team ever, offcourse he's only going to get hired by top clubs with a lot of resources who want their club to play expansive football after that gig at Barcelona.
I've also noticed that a lot of those in "Pep is a fraud" camp only make their arguments around results and nothing more, when that's not the only reason (though it's essential) why clubs hire Pep.
I've also noticed that a lot of those in "Pep is a fraud" camp only make their arguments around results and nothing more, when that's not the only reason (though it's essential) why clubs hire Pep.
So you should base his success on his results, his failures on the other hand shouldn't be judged by his results. Got that right?
There is a massive difference between “Pep is a fraud” and “Pep did what was expected with incredible, rule breaking resources”
Of course he is a fantastic coach and Barcelona was an incredible job.
I don’t think there are many calling him a fraud
Who said this though?
Let's face it. With regard to City, your post listing the "terrible" players he won titles with was ridiculous.Make a post saying needs 'world class players in each position'
A large list of non world class players produced and that statement gets changed to top players, fees paid...
This place man.
Assume Maguire, AWB, David Luiz, Keita, Fabinho, Lukaku, Kepa, Felix, Pepe etc are all top top players as cost 50m+
Especially combined with the fact that (as people keep telling you) he inherited the core of his current squad. All of his current best players in fact, bar Ederson.
You can claim to be the last bastion of the arts if you like. You are the football equivalent of a teeny pop music fan. Not looking for the detail or the nuance. Only at the results.
Reality is, I answered your question in the post you replied to. You may enjoy constant passing and preventing the opposition from counter attacking with tactical fouls. I find it boring and cynical.
Totally agree mate. Pep fan boys refuse to see the truth. He has them convinced his football is the renaissance.
If you haven't noticed, I have made zero references to number of trophies, net spend, team strength quantification, and other stuff that resembles accounting. I have zero interest for that. It is tedious, pointless, and has nothing to do with football as a game. But it is the main obsession of Guardiola's detractors in this thread, including yourself.
So much for "detail and nuance". In essence, my question was rhetorical. Team that plays objectively brilliant, most prolific and highly technical attacking football in the most competitive league, obviously can't be qualified as exceptionally boring in any sane way. There are less absurd ways to dress one's bias and antipathy. What is certain is only the fact that person espousing those views has zero clue about football and no interest for it as a game.
Last edited:
When has he not inherited the core of his squads?
I would say saying mediocre cup manager is a little harsh tbh, he's won a lot of cup games/titles, while he's at times faced some decent/good opponenets, I mean he's faced some of the same level of oppenonets that he's been KO'ed from the CL in these past 3 years. His CL record is definitely poor, but generally doesn't make him a poor cup manager. He's had a mix bag in his CL runs in the last decade as well, I mean he's made some poor decision in terms of formation, squad selection etc, as Muller said he never really played to his strength in the CL he tried adapting to his opponent ironically one thing he gets criticism, is one of the reason he's failed in that competition, lets also not kid ourselves either even with his Barcelona side he's had luck on his way to CL titles he's won equally he's been unlucky at times, Ineista injuriy to 2010 missed KO stages of CL, Messi missing a PK and Sanchez missing an open header in 2012 that could've seen them advance to the CL final, massive injuries in 2015 while going up against an in form MSN Barcelona, Muller missing a PK in 2016 which may have seen them advance to the final, Aguero missing 2 solid chances against Monaco away, also Aguero missing a PK against Spurs last season and Laporte who was almost flawless that season made two uncharacteristic mistakes leading to 2 goals. It's all part of the package at the end of the day, as you mention form is also a big factor outside of Messi/Ronaldo for most teams/players. So I wouldn't describe him as a mediocre cup managers equally I would say he's an an underwhelming CL campaign post Barca.
How could City have a mental collapse when they knew perfectly well that all they needed to do (to get Liverpool knocked out) was expose their weak defence (1)? The trouble for them was that they where being outplayed by Liverpools midfield (hence why they couldn't score...while Liverpool could expose their weak defence).
Besides even if you are correct, surely replacing Otamendi with VVD and having Neymar & Mbappe on the field (with Sane, Sterling & B.Silva on the bench) would help prevent such a mental collapse, especially when half of those players would be fighting to keep their places in the team.
(1) Remember that it was the same Liverpool side that lost 5-0 at the Etihad and scrapped a 4-3 win at Anfield in the Premier League.
The thing is though:
- Real Madrid & Barcelona both needed a entire Starting XI of World Class Players to win the Champions League during the 2010s, despite both of them boasting one of the two greatest players of this era (Ronaldo & MessI respectively).
- Real Madrid needed a entire Starting XI of World Class Players (Including Ronaldo) AND another Strong Second XI to win the European Double back in 2018.
- Bayern Munich needed a Starting XI containing 10 World Class Players (and had another 2-3 on the Bench) to win the Treble back in 2013.
- Inter Milan needed a Starting XI containing at least 9 World Class Players (and few others on the bench) to win the Treble back in 2010.
- Manchester United needed a Squad with 9-10 World Class Players to win a European Double in 2008 & reach another Champions League Final in 2009.
- Liverpool needed a Starting XI of 9 World Class Players (Plus 1-2 on the Bench) to win the Champions League in 2019.
The Bayern Munich side that Pep took on might have had a very good Starting XI; but once you look past the fact that Dante was a Starting CB (1), there a lack of World Class Strength in Depth outside of the Midfield positions. Something that might have been good enough to dominate the German Club Game, but was most definately not good enough to dominate both in Germany & in Europe. A problem that was never really addressed during Guardiola's time at the club (2).
The funny thing is though; while many criticise Bayern for rading other German Clubs of their best talent (including Dortmund); what they actually needed to do (to assemble a squad that could Dominate Europe as well as Germany) was actually go even further with this policy. For example if Bayern Munich (in Guardiola's first season) signed Weidenfeller, Schmelzer, Piszczek, Hummels, Gündoğan, Reus & Lewandowski (A year earlier than Bayern actually signed him) off Dortmund (3), that would have make a significant difference in securing another Champions League for Bayern in 2014.
(1) Still don't get why Bayern never signed Hummels back in 2013 rather than in 2016, because signing him after Guardiola came would have helped address the biggest weak spot in the Starting XI.
(2) Not helped by the fact Bayern only had a net spend of about £25 Million during Pep's first 2 seasons, while having a net spend of £51 Million during Pep's last season. Figures that where pretty small compared to what the likes of Real Madrid, Barcelona & even Manchester United where spending at the same time, despite the fact Bayern Munich has long been one of the biggest clubs in Europe.
(3) Thus creating a Bayern Squad that not only had a Starting XI with 11 World Class Players, but also had real strength in depth across mutiple areas of the squad.
The thing is; while I do sympathise with City over the Ref's decision's against them (in both the Liverpool game & the Tottenham game), one of the main things I have learnt about the Modern Game is that you cannot rely on the Ref to help you win games (even if it is very frustrating to witness Refs go against your team). Thus the only way you can legally overcome this problem is that you have a strong enough Starting XI & Bench that are actually able to win games despite whatthe Opposition & Ref throw against you.
While that was a big factor (perhaps Sterling should have taken that penality instead); an even bigger one has to be when Delph (1) allowed Son to score the winning goal in that tie (although both Laporte & Otamendi should have done far better to prevent that goal). Had David Alaba & VVD been signed by City (and took the place of both Delph & Otamendi in that game), I doubt that goal would have gone in and thus City would have knocked out Spurs even if the same madcap 2nd Leg result still happened.
(1) Whose stupid injuring of Kane during that game pretty much cost England any chance of winning the Nations League later that Summer...
While Guardiola's reluctance to play pragmatic football is a factor, I would agree that player performance is a far better factor in these cases.
Klopp did amazingly well to have that 2018-2019 Liverpool Squad reach 97 Points that season & win a Champions League. But the fact remains that Liverpools lack of World Class Strength in Depth (both in quality & numbers) ended up forcing them to write off the Domestic Cup Competitons, effectively lose the Premier League because Lovern failed to stop a shot by Aguero in that 2-1 Defeat to City, lose to PSG, Napoli & Red Star Belgrade Away from Home in the Champions League, struggle to beat Napoli at Home in said Champions League (1) & almost got knocked out of the CL by Barcelona at the Nou Camp (2).
(1) Despite the fact Arsenal would later beat the same Napoli team both Home & Away in the Europa League Quarter-Final's that season.
(2) It was the teams mentality that enabled them to come back against Barcelona in Anfield.
Again fair play to Klopp, but again they had to pay the price by having to again write off the Domestic Cup Competitions (to the extent that he treated both of them as if they are Youth Tournements) and doing pretty badly in the Champions League.
Besides the fact they did pretty badly against Napoli again & barely got past RB Salzburg in the Group Stages, they got knocked out of the Champions League by one of the worst Atlético Madrid sides in recent years (1). Yes Oblak was on fine form as usual (2), but the fact remains that a Real Madrid reject and Morata of all people (3), managed to score enough goals to end Liverpool's time in the Champions League this season.
(1) Mainly because they lost their best CB, their best Attacker, both their LB's, one of their Wingers and one of their best Midfielders, players that are not easy to replace (although they have done better than I expected on this regard). Likewise their attack has been pretty poor this season (as shown by the fact Morata is their top goalscorer).
(2) The fact that Mane, Firmino, Salah & even Origi all struggled to score any goals in this game shows that Liverpool really need to have another option in their attack. Hence why I believe that they are going to regret not signing Werner.
(3) The same Morata that has no self-confidence in scoring goals & who likely gets bullied by both Costa & Simeone on a regular basis.
I don't really blame them for focusing on the CL to be fair...
The Bayern Munich side that Pep took on had just won the treble.
One of the biggest mistakes any Title Winning Side (Domestically or in Europe) can ever make is by resting on their laurels. Thus Bayern Munich's failure to build upon their Treble Winning success ultimately meant that while they continued to Dominate Domestically, they ended up falling further behind both Real Madrid & Barcelona while Guardiola was at Bayern. Which in turn ultimately explains why they have failed to win another Champions League since 2013, be it under Guardiola or under any of his sucessors.
Last edited:
Of course they did. Even when he had them playing better football than the year before and they had the league wrapped up by March.
Nothing's ever Peps fault.
As I said earlier we'll have to agree to disagree.
I very much agree that their Domestic Dominance continued under Guardiola (right up to this day in fact), my point was that their failure to build upon their Treble Winning Side meant that they fell further behind the likes of Real Madrid & Barcelona (who continued to invest into their squads), hence why the El Classico sides kept winning CLs...while Bayern didn't.
On the Contrary, Pep is to blame for failing to demand significant transfer spending from the Bayern Board of Directors in return for accepting the job. Although to be fair the Bayern Board of Directors themselves failed to see (yet again) that resting on ones laurels is a disastrous stratagy to say the least...as they found out for themselves on the 12th of May 2012 & the 19th of May 2012.
If Pep had lost in the same manner, would this excuse be given?
When Pep at Bayern lost to peak MSN Barcelona without his key players, and to Atletico on away goals with Muller missing a penalty in a game Simeone admitted was the toughest he ever played, everyone claimed it was a failure yet this below par Atletico who was 6th in la liga at that time they beat Liverpool home and away is now being made better than they are
Exactly.
The dislike of Pep by some, is really amazing that they'll go to any length to criticize him but yet make excuses for other coaches who failed in the same circumstances or even worse.
Pretty much the first time Liverpool lost a knockout tie while being the favorite, no? Not even adding the fact that their goalkeeper had an insane brainfart AND the opposition's keeper was MOTM by a distance. Criticism occurs when there is repetition, and Pep lost every single time - bar this years tie against (also a below par) Real Madrid - whenever he faced any serious team in the knockout stage. At Bayern -> crushed against Madrid (and almost went out against Juventus in the very last minute by two last-minute equalizers, who got a goal wrongly disallowed btw.), crushed against Barca, lost against Atletico (Müller missed a penalty, but Atletico also missed one, and xG for both games was a tied 2-2 btw.), at City -> lost against Monaco, crushed against Liverpool, lost against Spurs. It's not like his teams got overtly unlucky (actually mostly very easy draws) and that any of those teams they lost against did it under some miraculous circumstances (like Chelsea in 2011 for instance) either. It's just every time his team is not the favorite or even underdogs (like against Barca), you know his team would get smashed with actually insane consistency.
You shouldn't be rating what Simeone is talking when he beats you, btw
. He is pretty well-known to exaggerate and big up his opponents whenever he beats them.Pretty much the first time Liverpool lost a knockout tie while being the favorite, no? Not even adding the fact that their goalkeeper had an insane brainfart AND the opposition's keeper was MOTM by a distance. Criticism occurs when there is repetition, and Pep lost every single time - bar this years tie against (also a below par) Real Madrid - whenever he faced any serious team in the knockout stage. At Bayern -> crushed against Madrid (and almost went out against Juventus in the very last minute by two last-minute equalizers, who got a goal wrongly disallowed btw.), crushed against Barca, lost against Atletico (Müller missed a penalty, but Atletico also missed one, and xG for both games was a tied 2-2 btw.), at City -> lost against Monaco, crushed against Liverpool, lost against Spurs. It's not like his teams got overtly unlucky (actually mostly very easy draws) and that any of those teams they lost against did it under some miraculous circumstances (like Chelsea in 2011 for instance) either. It's just every time his team is not the favorite or even underdogs (like against Barca), you know his team would get smashed with actually insane consistency.
You shouldn't be rating what Simeone is talking when he beats you, btw
So basically when his teams win, the opponents aren't strong, but when they lose no matter the circumstances in which it happened, it's because they finally met a serious opponent (favourite or not) and crumbled?
No point in arguing exaggerations and distortions in your post. Like other "detractors", you'll stick by the narrative, to the point of utter irrationality and obnoxiousness. That has nothing to do with football, so whatever.
But just as I thought that the absurdity had already reached peak level in this thread, there's a new achievement: literally making things up. Anyone who watched those matches knows that Bayern were absolutely dominant, and I distinctly remember there was a significant xG diferrenece between the teams.
For Bayern he consistently changed the line-up/tactics in away knock-out games (especially when the first game was away from home). He usually started with an additional midfielder, stopped pressing high up the pitch and tried to control games. It backfired almost every single time.
Pep's Bayern at its best played gung-ho (e.g. Neuer - Alaba, Badstuber, Boateng, Rafinha - Schweinsteiger - Robben, Ribery, Götze, Müller, Lewandowski started in the home match against Shakhtar) , while accepting some gaps. When you put enough pressure on, the opposition had a hard time exploiting these gaps. He gave all of the attacking threat up for nothing, because the team wasn't any better at defending. Slightly over the top, but to make the point: the team played much closer to what any United fan knows from the time under LvG. Lots of possession with little intent, that allows the opposition to be extremely comfortable without the ball, waiting for a good counter attack.
The games against Porto and Shakhtar are forgotten, because he managed to qualify for the next round. In the second leg, Bayern made both teams look like pub teams and won 7:0/6:1 after messing up the away games badly. Its hard to overstate how different Bayern performed in these games.
He got away with it, when he had much better players, but not against other top teams. You can always lose in cup ties, but he didn't get the best out of the team due to strange tactical decisions (there were other aspects as well).
I haven't paid equal attention to City's away games in the CL, but I know that he used Gündogan as additional midfielder against Pool. I think overall his lineup changes for City were less extreme, but the general theme was the same. Maybe some City fan can comment on that.
Pep's Bayern at its best played gung-ho (e.g. Neuer - Alaba, Badstuber, Boateng, Rafinha - Schweinsteiger - Robben, Ribery, Götze, Müller, Lewandowski started in the home match against Shakhtar) , while accepting some gaps. When you put enough pressure on, the opposition had a hard time exploiting these gaps. He gave all of the attacking threat up for nothing, because the team wasn't any better at defending. Slightly over the top, but to make the point: the team played much closer to what any United fan knows from the time under LvG. Lots of possession with little intent, that allows the opposition to be extremely comfortable without the ball, waiting for a good counter attack.
The games against Porto and Shakhtar are forgotten, because he managed to qualify for the next round. In the second leg, Bayern made both teams look like pub teams and won 7:0/6:1 after messing up the away games badly. Its hard to overstate how different Bayern performed in these games.
He got away with it, when he had much better players, but not against other top teams. You can always lose in cup ties, but he didn't get the best out of the team due to strange tactical decisions (there were other aspects as well).
I haven't paid equal attention to City's away games in the CL, but I know that he used Gündogan as additional midfielder against Pool. I think overall his lineup changes for City were less extreme, but the general theme was the same. Maybe some City fan can comment on that.
Are you talking about Liverpool here? I would be surprised if most neutrals think Liverpool's constant crossing style of play is better to watch than City's possession. Definitely more effective this season, but the football they play is quite functional.
Err, no, I actually said that this season's Madrid was the first team of the same quality of Pep's team that he beat in the knockouts for a very long time. Can you name just one single team that his team wasn't heavily favored against that he beat in an important match since he left Barca? I'm not even talking about results necessarily, just a match where they were objectively BETTER than they were expected to be.
I was actually in the stadium. But well, you are a guy that thinks there is objectively "good" taste in arts and music and also football styles, so nvm
.Then that's even more ridiculous since they basically dominated almost every game his teams lost.Err, no, I actually said that this season's Madrid was the first team of the same quality of Pep's team that he beat in the knockouts for a very long time. Can you name just one single team that his team wasn't heavily favored against that he beat in an important match since he left Barca? I'm not even talking about results necessarily, just a match where they were objectively BETTER than they were expected to be.
I was actually in the stadium. But well, you are a guy that thinks there is objectively "good" taste in arts and music and also football styles, so nvm
The general theme with his teams is that they conceed from the few errors they commit and don't convert even half the occasions they create (this has been more obvious with his City team).
And what does the fact that you were actually in the stadium have to do with anything? We all saw the same game.
Well, maybe you weren't watching the game. Either way, you literally made that stat up. There are some expected goals graphs of that game, and all show that Bayern's overwhelming advantage in created chances. Anyway, I'll not participate anymore in this ridiculous discussion.
First time I've heard that we "dominated" Madrid and Barca when they bashed us, and also that City "dominated" Liverpool and Monaco honestly.
The other guy was saying that I've not watched the game, to what I replied to that I did. What's wrong with that? I wasn't talking about the home game which we dominated obviously btw, but the whole leg.
One thing I've always been asking myself is why so many of Pep's "admirers" would always get so insanely defensive, almost feeling personally attacked, when there are people having different opinions than them. While Pep had his teams play an insanely high level league football and would consistently crush minor teams like very few did, there just had been undeniable consistency in failing every time his team plays a formidable opponent in the CL, hasn't it? What's wrong saying he has been underachieving with the squads he had in the CL, you do not necessarily have to agree albeit that's definitely not too farfetched, isn't it?
I'm out of this thread too, apparently it is blasphemy when daring to say anything against him, look at those responses
. Guess I do not possess the superior intellectual capacities to discuss with a fine arts, politics and sports connoisseur such as @Stocar, yikes!At least have that bit of decency to admit that you made that 2-2 overall xG stat up. It is easy for anyone to look up. Just when you'd think that the level of stupidity reached by the haters crew couldn't possibly be surpassed, there again emerges something so petty and dumb that one simply can't believe what he's reading.
Last edited: