'Pep' Guardiola sack watch

I’ve had a feeling for a while now that he’s lost the dressing room, and the MNF analysis only served to make me more confident of this. They’ve got players not shifting across, not tracking their men, and most unworryingly (:)), not even running. You don’t just stop following your manager’s instructions and putting in effort for him if you’re still playing for him.

Personally, I think he’s gone stale in the eyes of his players, and it’s his own fault for not foreseeing this and conscientiously updating his squad even through their successful years as Fergie did with us.

It’s beautiful to watch unfold.
 
343 said:
That's exactly the point, but was it not you who presented a hypothetical situation to begin with regarding the brain fart from Nunes? It's all ifs and buts. Fact is United won and deserved to on the balance of play.
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Big difference. The Hojland pen incident was in the 64th min. No guarantee that United go on to win from 1-1 with a third of the game left. The game would still be in the balance.

The Nunes mistake was in the 88th min. The chance of City winning the game just before the Nunes mistake would have been over 95%. I say that because with the game closing out you would have received very short odds if you were betting on City to win. 1/50. Maybe even 1/100 or more.

So i think it is fair to say that on the balance of probability and only minutes left, City would still have won had it not been for the Nunes brain fart.

You said ...

"Had the ref and VAR rightly awarded a penalty for the blatant foul on Hojlund, United would have thrashed City by more goals."

More goals than 2? How many? 3, 4 5?

There is zero evidence of that, nor any logic for that argument based on probability.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
When he is saying things like "I'm not good enough" and "I can't fix this" it feels very clear that he regrets signing the extension and is asking the club for a mercy sacking.
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I think he is trying to take the focus of the players. It it fair to say though he hasn't been in this position before so maybe a little confused about how best to deal with the situation.
 
MalaysianRed7 said:
I’ve had a feeling for a while now that he’s lost the dressing room, and the MNF analysis only served to make me more confident of this. They’ve got players not shifting across, not tracking their men, and most unworryingly (:)), not even running. You don’t just stop following your manager’s instructions and putting in effort for him if you’re still playing for him.

Personally, I think he’s gone stale in the eyes of his players, and it’s his own fault for not foreseeing this and conscientiously updating his squad even through their successful years as Fergie did with us.

It’s beautiful to watch unfold.
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I dont think he has lost the dressing room and i dont think his message has gone stale.

I find it really hard to be believe that a man who all City players seemed to be willing to run though brick wall for only 6 months ago are sick of him.

He spent 200mil last season on players that were intended to replace older ones. Gvardiol in Laporte out. Mahrez out and Doku and Nunes in. The recent window with only Savinho and Gundogan coming in was weird. Is that Pep's fault, or limitations put on the club with the Premier League charges upcoming?

Either way, no sympathy for him. But i dont think its fair for everyone to say now this was coming, because i would love someone to show me the post that predicted City would collapse this season. They were 23 from 27 points in their first 10 games of the season and top of the league. No one predicted this.

I really do think that they could suddenly turn this around. Losing to us in this mannor may be the catalyst, even though it is hard to see what the solution is. They do have some easier games coming up.
 
It feels like the perception of Pep saying he isn’t good enough is that he’s bluffing or being falsely modest. Pep has mostly been known as a neurotic, hyper intense perfectionist as a manager. If that is indeed the case, then his standards for himself and what he deems success/failure will be mostly incomprehensible as what he deems success or failing will look like unrealistic expectations and ambition to many.

For a perfectionist who has mostly defeated himself with overly elaborate schemes in the CL, who has won so many league titles with absurd points tallies, this kind of collapse and capitulation could well be reaffirming that he is below the standards he sets for himself; serial winners remember defeats and failings with almost eidetic memory (go watch a Ferguson, Jordan and the like talk about defeats and you see they are still haunted by blots on the legacy, they recount as if it happened yesterday) and a fear of losing/failure often acts as the biggest driver; the win pacifies, but defeats really get under their skin.

To go with the above, Pep clearly wrestles with his ego and the feeling of not being regarded as he should be for his feats with City - wins are not regarded or celebrated as they should be, but defeats and calamity bring more attention and excitement to the masses. The [obscene] amount of money he’ll have been paid at City may assuage and offset, to a degree, but you can clearly see that this man cares about regard and his image, which is why he has been so careful in curation. To see the schadenfreude his supposed demise engenders seems to come as a genuine shock to him.

This is the first time in his career where he isn’t in control and can’t keep the baying wolves at the door. It doesn’t look like he has a handle on how to actually cope with that, so we’re seeing a lot of things we shouldn’t. I’ve long held the belief that given equally able squads, Fergie would have Pep break mentally within a few campaigns and seeing how Pep is handling this crisis compounds that belief. Someone like Fergie would tap into what makes Pep tick and then turn that screw in a way that would make a molehill a mountain soon enough.
 
Fortitude said:
It feels like the perception of Pep saying he isn’t good enough is that he’s bluffing or being falsely modest. Pep has mostly been known as a neurotic, hyper intense perfectionist as a manager. If that is indeed the case, then his standards for himself and what he deems success/failure will be mostly incomprehensible as what he deems success or failing will look like unrealistic expectations and ambition to many.

For a perfectionist who has mostly defeated himself with overly elaborate schemes in the CL, who has won so many league titles with absurd points tallies, this kind of collapse and capitulation could well be reaffirming that he is below the standards he sets for himself; serial winners remember defeats and failings with almost eidetic memory (go watch a Ferguson, Jordan and the like talk about defeats and you see they are still haunted by blots on the legacy, they recount as if it happened yesterday) and a fear of losing/failure often acts as the biggest driver; the win pacifies, but defeats really get under their skin.

To go with the above, Pep clearly wrestles with his ego and the feeling of not being regarded as he should be for his feats with City - wins are not regarded or celebrated as they should be, but defeats and calamity bring more attention and excitement to the masses. The [obscene] amount of money he’ll have been paid at City may assuage and offset, to a degree, but you can clearly see that this man cares about regard and his image, which is why he has been so careful in curation. To see the schadenfreude his supposed demise engenders seems to come as a genuine shock to him.

This is the first time in his career where he isn’t in control and can’t keep the baying wolves at the door. It doesn’t look like he has a handle on how to actually cope with that, so we’re seeing a lot of things we shouldn’t. I’ve long held the belief that given equally able squads, Fergie would have Pep break mentally within a few campaigns and seeing how Pep is handling this crisis compounds that belief. Someone like Fergie would tap into what makes Pep tick and then turn that screw in a way that would make a molehill a mountain soon enough.
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Agree 100% with all of the above - especially the highlighted part.

He has always struck me as someone who was teetering on the brink of insanity, and the only reason he had never completely lost the plot until now was because everything had gone perfectly for him. All it's taken is a few losses in a row to have him clawing at his face like a madman. To quote the Joker in The Dark Knight - "Madness is like gravity. All it takes is a little push".

As far as I'm concerned, this episode of bad results (and most importantly, his reaction to it) settles the GOAT debate once and for all. You'd never see Fergie clawing at his own face, cutting his nose, saying that he wants to harm himself and saying that he's not good enough.

I remember Pep's press conferences at Barcelona where he was so obviously rattled at Jose winding him up. There's no way he'd ever cope with Fergie in his prime. He'd be going full Keegan in just a few seasons.
 
It is a bit mental that he’s let so many key players get into their 30’s without bedding in any replacements. Bringing back Gundogan is even more crazy, Kovacic was opportunistic but a short term decision.

Liverpool have done an annoyingly good job of dismantling Klopp’s team. I don’t think they’ve really replaced the quality of Mane like for like, but they’ve got lots of good options for those positions.

He’s got to stick it out and fix this to be compared to Fergie, who built three top sides, early 90s, 99 team, and 2008. He was the master at getting rid of top ageing players, up until the last team where he left us with a lot of work to do - which makes me think Pep has done the same thing and isn’t planning on sticking around.
 
Dan_F said:
It is a bit mental that he’s let so many key players get into their 30’s without bedding in any replacements. Bringing back Gundogan is even more crazy, Kovacic was opportunistic but a short term decision.

Liverpool have done an annoyingly good job of dismantling Klopp’s team. I don’t think they’ve really replaced the quality of Mane like for like, but they’ve got lots of good options for those positions.

He’s got to stick it out and fix this to be compared to Fergie, who built three top sides, early 90s, 99 team, and 2008. He was the master at getting rid top ageing players, up until the last team where he left us with a lot of work to do - which makes me think Pep has done the same thing and isn’t planning on sticking around.
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We all know he's not going to do that. He's basically begging for the sack already.

He'll never be compared to Fergie.
 
DarkLord1984 said:
We all know he's not going to do that. He's basically begging for the sack already.

He'll never be compared to Fergie.
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Plenty of non-utd fans do though, mainly younger ones who probably never lived through the 90/2000s in fairness.
 
Dan_F said:
Liverpool have done an annoyingly good job of dismantling Klopp’s team. I don’t think they’ve really replaced the quality of Mane like for like, but they’ve got lots of good options for those positions.
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Have they? This season they are massively reliant on Salah. I have no idea why people are fawning over Slot and Liverpool in general when Salah is single handedly dragging them towards the title.

In the league Salah has 13 goals and 9 assists so he has been directly responsible for 22 goals. Many of those have been put on an absolute plate for the attackers as well. Perfect balls onto the players head/foot in the 6 yard box. Hes changed so many games for them.

Liverpool have scored 31 goals in the league, 22 of them have been via Salah. Thats 71% of all their league goals coming through him. Without Salah this Liverpool side isn't half as good. If they don't get him tied down to a bumper new deal and he leaves at the end of the season I can see it all falling apart. Its easy to run through walls for the team when you are on top. Its much harder when things aren't going so well. As City are finding this season...
 
gaffs said:
Big difference. The Hojland pen incident was in the 64th min. No guarantee that United go on to win from 1-1 with a third of the game left. The game would still be in the balance.

The Nunes mistake was in the 88th min. The chance of City winning the game just before the Nunes mistake would have been over 95%. I say that because with the game closing out you would have received very short odds if you were betting on City to win. 1/50. Maybe even 1/100 or more.

So i think it is fair to say that on the balance of probability and only minutes left, City would still have won had it not been for the Nunes brain fart.

You said ...

"Had the ref and VAR rightly awarded a penalty for the blatant foul on Hojlund, United would have thrashed City by more goals."

More goals than 2? How many? 3, 4 5?

There is zero evidence of that, nor any logic for that argument based on probability.
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You really miss the point. I was putting up hypotheticals in the same way you were, not asserting that those things would come true. Your original argument was based on 'Had Nunes not had a massive brain fart' - a hypothetical. I countered by saying that there were many other hypotheticals possible in this game.
 
343 said:
You really miss the point. I was putting up hypotheticals in the same way you were, not asserting that those things would come true. Your original argument was based on 'Had Nunes not had a massive brain fart' - a hypothetical. I countered by saying that there were many other hypotheticals possible in this game.
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Your hypothetical of "United would have thrashed City by more goals" had they been given the 65th min pen, is way more of a stretch than City managing to hold on for another 6 mins had Nunes not fecked up.

Any live betting odds would have have shown you that.
 
MalaysianRed7 said:
I’ve had a feeling for a while now that he’s lost the dressing room, and the MNF analysis only served to make me more confident of this. They’ve got players not shifting across, not tracking their men, and most unworryingly (:)), not even running. You don’t just stop following your manager’s instructions and putting in effort for him if you’re still playing for him.

Personally, I think he’s gone stale in the eyes of his players, and it’s his own fault for not foreseeing this and conscientiously updating his squad even through their successful years as Fergie did with us.

It’s beautiful to watch unfold.
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You don't think pep would spend 150 mil a season if he could? Id imagine the purse strings were tightened by the higher ups
 
I have some city fan mates who are genuinely complaining that they haven’t got any depth as they haven’t been to spend.
Madness really since they were continuously spending for 10 years up until 2 windows ago
 
SuperiorXI said:
Can you imagine these rabid fans if you teleported them to the 90s?
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To credit this particular bunch, they were fans in the 90s and had to endure being shit. I regard them as pretty level headed. But even still shows that people are completely blind when it comes to their own club
 
How would you try and fix City this season so?
You'd think they'd have a few academy players who could come in and bring a bit of energy to team.
 
Dan_F said:
It is a bit mental that he’s let so many key players get into their 30’s without bedding in any replacements. Bringing back Gundogan is even more crazy, Kovacic was opportunistic but a short term decision.

Liverpool have done an annoyingly good job of dismantling Klopp’s team. I don’t think they’ve really replaced the quality of Mane like for like, but they’ve got lots of good options for those positions.

He’s got to stick it out and fix this to be compared to Fergie, who built three top sides, early 90s, 99 team, and 2008. He was the master at getting rid of top ageing players, up until the last team where he left us with a lot of work to do - which makes me think Pep has done the same thing and isn’t planning on sticking around.
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City's biggest failure's in recent years have been the sale of their elite young talents while sticking with the old guard. Palmer, Lavia, Rogers are all ideal replacements in the current City squad, yet they binned them off for PSR and then didn't buy well in the next couple of windows to offset it.
Now they are stuck with a squad that's rapidly declining physically, and a team that isn't setup to play the slick stuff the City teams of years ago played to offset the leakage of goals.
 
MiceOnMeth said:
You don't think pep would spend 150 mil a season if he could? Id imagine the purse strings were tightened by the higher ups
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He easily could’ve done so without too much of a net transfer outflow. As far as I’m aware, keeping the likes of Ederson, Walker, Dias, Silva etc was his call.
 
Dan_F said:
Plenty of non-utd fans do though, mainly younger ones who probably never lived through the 90/2000s in fairness.
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im kinda the opposite. No matter what Pep does from now on (even if he relegates Man City) he will always be the GOAT. If Ancelotti can win 1 more CL then he will be in the conversation.

My reason being, there have been many managers in the history who won a lot of titles. Of course Ferguson won more than any of them, but in the end I dont see how that sets him apart from the likes of Capello or Lippi. What Pep did is that he revolutionized the way teams play football. Cruff started all of that tiki taka, but it was Pep who made it perfect. There are also a lot of his lesser known inventions, like inverted full back.

To make a comparison, its like Von Neumann vs Einstein. Ferguson is like Von Neumann, lots of contributions, but none of his contribution is as deep as Einstein’s. Basically the whole modern physics was created by him.
 
Roger Myerson said:
im kinda the opposite. No matter what Pep does from now on (even if he relegates Man City) he will always be the GOAT. If Ancelotti can win 1 more CL then he will be in the conversation.

My reason being, there have been many managers in the history who won a lot of titles. Of course Ferguson won more than any of them, but in the end I dont see how that sets him apart from the likes of Capello or Lippi. What Pep did is that he revolutionized the way teams play football. Cruff started all of that tiki taka, but it was Pep who made it perfect. There are also a lot of his lesser known inventions, like inverted full back.

To make a comparison, its like Von Neumann vs Einstein. Ferguson is like Von Neumann, lots of contributions, but none of his contribution is as deep as Einstein’s. Basically the whole modern physics was created by him.
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You mean he ruined it surely.
 
Roger Myerson said:
im kinda the opposite. No matter what Pep does from now on (even if he relegates Man City) he will always be the GOAT. If Ancelotti can win 1 more CL then he will be in the conversation.

My reason being, there have been many managers in the history who won a lot of titles. Of course Ferguson won more than any of them, but in the end I dont see how that sets him apart from the likes of Capello or Lippi. What Pep did is that he revolutionized the way teams play football. Cruff started all of that tiki taka, but it was Pep who made it perfect. There are also a lot of his lesser known inventions, like inverted full back.

To make a comparison, it’s like Von Neumann vs Einstein. Ferguson is like Von Neumann, lots of contributions, but none of his contribution is as deep as Einstein’s. Basically the whole modern physics was created by him.
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Do you know how ridiculous it sounds to compare a manager who won 16 league titles to some that won 5 and 7, then say I don’t see what sets him apart. Connect the dots.

I guess it’s an interesting argument to be made about Pep tactically. I’d say tactics are only one part of being a good manager so to call him the best tactical manager of all time makes sense. I’d argue he’s made football way less entertaining more recently. His Man City tactics have been built on physical traits far more than his Barcelona team. It’s no surprise to me that their get of jail free card in Walker has lost some pace, the most physically dominating centre mid gets injured, and all of a sudden it’s gone to shit. Such a great tactician should be able to find answers.
 
Roger Myerson said:
im kinda the opposite. No matter what Pep does from now on (even if he relegates Man City) he will always be the GOAT. If Ancelotti can win 1 more CL then he will be in the conversation.

My reason being, there have been many managers in the history who won a lot of titles. Of course Ferguson won more than any of them, but in the end I dont see how that sets him apart from the likes of Capello or Lippi. What Pep did is that he revolutionized the way teams play football. Cruff started all of that tiki taka, but it was Pep who made it perfect. There are also a lot of his lesser known inventions, like inverted full back.

To make a comparison, its like Von Neumann vs Einstein. Ferguson is like Von Neumann, lots of contributions, but none of his contribution is as deep as Einstein’s. Basically the whole modern physics was created by him.
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Wait til Pep wins the League with the likes of Cleverley, Anderson, Welbeck, Kagawa, Rafael...etc and we'll talk.
 
Roger Myerson said:
im kinda the opposite. No matter what Pep does from now on (even if he relegates Man City) he will always be the GOAT. If Ancelotti can win 1 more CL then he will be in the conversation.

My reason being, there have been many managers in the history who won a lot of titles. Of course Ferguson won more than any of them, but in the end I dont see how that sets him apart from the likes of Capello or Lippi. What Pep did is that he revolutionized the way teams play football. Cruff started all of that tiki taka, but it was Pep who made it perfect. There are also a lot of his lesser known inventions, like inverted full back.

To make a comparison, its like Von Neumann vs Einstein. Ferguson is like Von Neumann, lots of contributions, but none of his contribution is as deep as Einstein’s. Basically the whole modern physics was created by him.
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A true test of any manager or player is how they deal with adversity. Pep's never been in the shit before and he can't seem to cope.

The players aren't running or pressing as they used to, even at the start of the season. They're easy to play against at the moment which is crazy. If he can come through it and rebuild then he's in the conversation but for me there's always the question mark around him as he seems to need the perfect player in every position for his system to work for him. And since Barcelona his teams have always had a fragile side, in that the ability to collapse in big games was always there.
 
Sir Erik ten Hag said:
Wait til Pep wins the League with the likes of Cleverley, Anderson, Welbeck, Kagawa, Rafael...etc and we'll talk.
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Dan_F said:
It’s no surprise to me that their get of jail free card in Walker has lost some pace, the most physically dominating centre mid gets injured, and all of a sudden it’s gone to shit. Such a great tactician should be able to find answers.
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Jaap Stam was the bedrock of the United team and then got injured for the majority of the 00/01 season. Did we fall apart like City without Rodri? No, we won the league comfortably.
 
Withnail said:
A true test of any manager or player is how they deal with adversity. Pep's never been in the shit before and he can't seem to cope.

The players aren't running or pressing as they used to, even at the start of the season. They're easy to play against at the moment which is crazy. If he can come through it and rebuild then he's in the conversation but for me there's always the question mark around him as he seems to need the perfect player in every position for his system to work for him. And since Barcelona his teams have always had a fragile side, in that the ability to collapse in big games was always there.
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I mean he still has a lot of time to overcome that adversity. Every team can have an "off" season.
I think it's testament to his greatness that only now a team that he manages has that bad of a period. And that is after winning 4 premier league trophies and a treble on top of that.
A more fair criticism for him is that he never coached an underdog team and always had big budget, but then again it's because of his greatness that the big teams choose him.
Lets see if he stays next season how the team will look.
 
TheScriptwriter said:
I mean he still has a lot of time to overcome that adversity. Every team can have an "off" season.
I think it's testament to his greatness that only now a team that he manages has that bad of a period. And that is after winning 4 premier league trophies and a treble on top of that.
A more fair criticism for him is that he never coached an underdog team and always had big budget, but then again it's because of his greatness that the big teams choose him.
Lets see if he stays next season how the team will look.
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They’ll piss the national league north ………
 
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
Jaap Stam was the bedrock of the United team and then got injured for the majority of the 00/01 season. Did we fall apart like City without Rodri? No, we won the league comfortably.
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Pep has won the league comfortably in seasons where KdB was injured
 
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
Jaap Stam was the bedrock of the United team and then got injured for the majority of the 00/01 season. Did we fall apart like City without Rodri? No, we won the league comfortably.
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The overall point stands, but singling out Jaap Stam seems odd when you look at the rest of that team.
 
Dan_F said:
It is a bit mental that he’s let so many key players get into their 30’s without bedding in any replacements. Bringing back Gundogan is even more crazy, Kovacic was opportunistic but a short term decision.

Liverpool have done an annoyingly good job of dismantling Klopp’s team. I don’t think they’ve really replaced the quality of Mane like for like, but they’ve got lots of good options for those positions.

He’s got to stick it out and fix this to be compared to Fergie, who built three top sides, early 90s, 99 team, and 2008. He was the master at getting rid of top ageing players, up until the last team where he left us with a lot of work to do - which makes me think Pep has done the same thing and isn’t planning on sticking around.
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How has Klopps team been dismantled?
 
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
Jaap Stam was the bedrock of the United team and then got injured for the majority of the 00/01 season. Did we fall apart like City without Rodri? No, we won the league comfortably.
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Even when Keane got injured in the 97/98 season Utd only missed out on the league by 1 point to Arsenal.
 
Roger Myerson said:
im kinda the opposite. No matter what Pep does from now on (even if he relegates Man City) he will always be the GOAT. If Ancelotti can win 1 more CL then he will be in the conversation.

My reason being, there have been many managers in the history who won a lot of titles. Of course Ferguson won more than any of them, but in the end I dont see how that sets him apart from the likes of Capello or Lippi. What Pep did is that he revolutionized the way teams play football. Cruff started all of that tiki taka, but it was Pep who made it perfect. There are also a lot of his lesser known inventions, like inverted full back.

To make a comparison, its like Von Neumann vs Einstein. Ferguson is like Von Neumann, lots of contributions, but none of his contribution is as deep as Einstein’s. Basically the whole modern physics was created by him.
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There's so much to unpack with this opinion.

There's one thing to create new tactical play styles and such, but it's just one part of football. Another part is winning and another part is being able to do more with less as well as win things when you have little to no resources.

Ferguson won European trophies with Aberdeen and won league titles with some pretty meh teams on paper.

Another thing is to be able to reinvent yourself when the world around you changes, which Capello and Lippi were unable to do.

Also your analogy is pretty weird. You're comparing a guy who was an all rounder who is best known for his works in Computer Science and Electronic engineering vs a theoretical physicist whose impact didn't really change the day to day.

All modern computers run off Von Neumann architecture, I'm not really sure how relativity or understanding the space-time conundrum a bit better has really helped the average person day to day.
 
Roger Myerson said:
im kinda the opposite. No matter what Pep does from now on (even if he relegates Man City) he will always be the GOAT. If Ancelotti can win 1 more CL then he will be in the conversation.

My reason being, there have been many managers in the history who won a lot of titles. Of course Ferguson won more than any of them, but in the end I dont see how that sets him apart from the likes of Capello or Lippi. What Pep did is that he revolutionized the way teams play football. Cruff started all of that tiki taka, but it was Pep who made it perfect. There are also a lot of his lesser known inventions, like inverted full back.

To make a comparison, its like Von Neumann vs Einstein. Ferguson is like Von Neumann, lots of contributions, but none of his contribution is as deep as Einstein’s. Basically the whole modern physics was created by him.
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The cheating/bribing issues that have surrounded him at every club he's ever been at since his playing days (except Bayern) remove him entirely from the GOAT conversation as far as I am concerned.
 
NotChatGPT said:
How has Klopps team been dismantled?
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From the title winning team, Mane, Firminho, Henderson, Keita, Wijanldum, Fabinho as well as some squad players have all gone.

I think 5/6 first team players from 19/20 are still at Liverpool, whereas from City they still have 8/9 players from the same year, with most of them being mid 30s. Whereas at Liverpool, they only have Salah and VVD who are at an age where they need immediate replacements.
 
Dan_F said:
From the title winning team, Mane, Firminho, Henderson, Keita, Wijanldum, Fabinho as well as some squad players have all gone.

I think 5/6 first team players from 19/20 are still at Liverpool, whereas from City they still have 8/9 players from the same year, with most of them being mid 30s. Whereas at Liverpool, they only have Salah and VVD who are at an age where they need immediate replacements.
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Keita was never a key player, wasn’t even a good player, and i’m not sure why you’re now suddenly referring to the title winning team after first calling it «Klopps team», which is a completely different argument.
 
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