'Pep' Guardiola sack watch

MUW4Eva said:
It might be a different era, it doesn't or shouldn't mean that what Sir Alex achieved should be in any way dismissed, diminished or anything like that.

Sir Alex achieved more in his time at Aberdeen, then Pep has in his whole managerial career (Barcelona, Bayern and City).

Then add in Sir Alex's spell with us, and we'll, he really is untouchable, no one comes even remotely close.
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As great as SAF was, he didn't do well enough in Europe and is unproven outside the UK.

No other coach than Guardiola has the ability to create such dominant teams with entertaining football in 3 major leagues. I doubt SAF would be that successful at Barca or Bayern, different language/mentality/culture..
 
SoCross said:
City play beautiful football though. The man is a world class coach. I was in awe yesterday of some of the football, haven't really watched them before. Much better football than Liverpool aka the greatest team in PL history.

Having Haaland in the middle is going to make them a terrifying prospect.
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Yeah, for me they're most exciting team to watch in England by a mile. They do lack a bit of cutting edge at times but that's a personnel issue. Drop a goalscoring wide player / Aguero into this team and even that is resolved. But leaving aside money (it's a big thing to leave aside), purely in terms of football, they play lovely stuff. In fact between them and City, the gap in points doesn't reflect the gap in performances this season for me. Liverpool have a won tons of games when they've not played very well whereas City have often dropped points despite great performances. The table is what it is of course, but I disagree with the whole boring football thing. They're not really Spain 2010 where they just keep passing it endlessly. It's high quality possession.

But it has to help having such strength in depth. I mean their 4th choice CB is a 50 million pound one. Not comparing them to us because we are poorly run and they aren't but that's some luxury to have.
 
genardk said:
As great as SAF was, he didn't do well enough in Europe and is unproven outside the UK.

No other coach than Guardiola has the ability to create such dominant teams with entertaining football in 3 major leagues. I doubt SAF would be that successful at Barca or Bayern, different language/mentality/culture..
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That's a reach. It's like saying Messi couldn't dream of jumping from league to league winning titles like Zlatan. I mean, Messi could, obviously, but he chose to spend his 15 years of his career at the club he loved.

No point discussing Bayern anyway as everybody wins league titles there so SAF would have won that with his hands tied behind his back.
 
genardk said:
As great as SAF was, he didn't do well enough in Europe and is unproven outside the UK.

No other coach than Guardiola has the ability to create such dominant teams with entertaining football in 3 major leagues. I doubt SAF would be that successful at Barca or Bayern, different language/mentality/culture..
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Guardiola has done that with very ideal circumstances at Bayern and City though. Those clubs were already made to succeed. SAF took a club in the wilderness and built them from the ground up. He also rebuilt his teams and evolved them to deal with new opposition and eras.

I don’t think Guardiola will ever go into a club like where Liverpool were when Klopp came in and try to build up like that. He needs the foundations to be there already so that he can succeed.
 
@genardk

Love your appeal for managers proving at different leagues in different countries but don’t feel the same about players:D
 
genardk said:
As great as SAF was, he didn't do well enough in Europe and is unproven outside the UK.

No other coach than Guardiola has the ability to create such dominant teams with entertaining football in 3 major leagues. I doubt SAF would be that successful at Barca or Bayern, different language/mentality/culture..
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That's a contender for the one of the dumbest posts I've seen on the forum. Considering SAF managed players from so many countries without any issues with culture or mentality, what makes you think if he takes over these absolute powerhouses in these 1-team or 2-team leagues he wouldn't just walk the league every year?

But you did get people to bite. So well done on that I guess?
 
Real Name said:
Of course he's a great but the fact you need to mock Fergie's time at Aberdeen and don't understand (or dont want to) the magnitude of his success there says a lot.
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This is it, I guess there are a lot of people born after his success at Aberdeen, they cannot fathom quite how gargantuan an achievement what he did there is still to this very day.

Pep can win as many league titles as he wants, spending countless billions or trillions there doing so, and he will still not get close to the achievements that Sir Alex did with Aberdeen.

He has had it easy in his time as a manager in comparison to Sir Alex, he was gifted the Barcelona job, yes they were underperformed by their standards, but it was still the Barcelona job, it wasn't Cadiz, he didn't take Cadiz to European glory, or a small team like that did he?

That is why until he does, he will forever be behind Sir Alex, and what Sir Alex has done.

Same for him being behind Jose, as Jose took Porto from just a Portuguese club, into a European powerhouse, doing what to my knowledge, no one else has done, winning the UEFA Cup, then the following season winning the Champions League, that initial is an extraordinary feat in itself with a money bags club, but Porto, wow, then when Jose was at Chelsea, he had a season where they conceded something unbelievable like 10 league goals all season, on the way to the title, again that was unbelievable.

For me Pep is behind Jose, nevermind being light years behind what Sir Alex has achieved in total.

Pep has been very successful no doubt, but he hasn't truly been tested, as he has always been at the richest club, where he can just buy his way out of things, if there are any issues.

Grealish alone was probably 100 times, if not more what Sir Alex spent in total at Aberdeen.

People should be far more respectful of what Sir Alex achieved with Aberdeen, especially beating Real Madrid, that was just simply an unbelievable feat, probably something we will not see ever again.
Leicester winning the Premier League is the only thing that could even remotely come close.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
That's a reach. It's like saying Messi couldn't dream of jumping from league to league winning titles like Zlatan. I mean, Messi could, obviously, but he chose to spend his 15 years of his career at the club he loved.

No point discussing Bayern anyway as everybody wins league titles there so SAF would have won that with his hands tied behind his back.
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My point was about creating a team that always plays very entertaining and dominant football. I am not just talking about results.

You know, I know, everybody knows that if Guardiola comes to United today, you will certainly be a top CL and PL contender in a couple of years playing amazing, dominant football as you desire despite your current level, and that alone is very powerful & impressive setting Guardiola apart from others..

Messi or other players in a different league is way different from a manager's experience in a new league because a player is not managing all these new people, manager has way more responsibilities than a player, has to coordinate well with the players, staff, top management etc..

Regardless, SAF is easily a top-3 manager of all times for me and can see why many people see him as no. 1, have huge respect for him as any other football fan.. but we do not need to look down on Pep to make SAF shine, he doesn't need that..
 
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I still struggle to see how people find their football exciting to watch. Cutback cutback cutback, strangling the life out of teams with possession. Granted I'm happy it worked yesterday eventually, but I don't enjoy watching their games, and having sat through more than I normally would over the last couple of months hasn't changed that.
 
Next up, hope they wont win 3 in a row.

I see Pep is saying their 4 title in 5 years is amazing achievement and it wont be ever forgotten.

Erm yeah.
 
Klopper76 said:
Guardiola has done that with very ideal circumstances at Bayern and City though. Those clubs were already made to succeed. SAF took a club in the wilderness and built them from the ground up. He also rebuilt his teams and evolved them to deal with new opposition and eras.

I don’t think Guardiola will ever go into a club like where Liverpool were when Klopp came in and try to build up like that. He needs the foundations to be there already so that he can succeed.
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Good post. One of Fergie's best attributes as a manager was his adaptability to newer ideas. Our double-winning season, where we deployed a 4-6-0 on some games, is a testament to this. Unfortunately for us I see a lot of Fergie in Klopp.
 
Real Name said:
Next up, hope they wont win 3 in a row.

I see Pep is saying their 4 title in 5 years is amazing achievement and it wont be ever forgotten.

Erm yeah.
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Well it’s either City to win 3 in a row, or Liverpool to win their 20th title.

Have your pick?
 
genardk said:
answered that above, my friend:cool:
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I tried to read above but I didn’t really get an answer.

I remember watching Thierry Henry going from Arsenal to Barcelona. He played so much different. Couldn’t call him this legend at Barcelona the way he is viewed at Arsenal. Forlans ability for a team like Villarreal vs his performances for a better team like United.

Some people can do it anywhere and any time - no matter the job they are players that adapt their own game to the team they are playing with; against the differences in opposition they are playing with.

Ive seen failures in managers and in players when they move to other clubs in the same league - never mind players or managers that have to move to whole different countries, leagues and styles of play.

Anyway, same story but just a different day! Take care
 
I have a feeling Haaland at City will cost them a premier league title whilst them having a stronger chance of winning the CL.

They need that bully type of tap in player that is useful in knock out games.

Doubt is that Pep didn’t exactly make Lewandowaki successful CL wise so maybe that may just be a Guardiola weakness.

A weakness outside La Masia Barcelona, like some others have shown is possible too.
 
genardk said:
As great as SAF was, he didn't do well enough in Europe and is unproven outside the UK.

No other coach than Guardiola has the ability to create such dominant teams with entertaining football in 3 major leagues. I doubt SAF would be that successful at Barca or Bayern, different language/mentality/culture..
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Statements like that make no sense to me, because Sir Alex chose to dominate British football i.e. chose to manage United for decades rather than hop from team to team.

Just as all-time greats like Messi, Pele chose to stay in one team for most of their careers.

Sir Alex has proven that he's in the goat tier of European football with his accomplishments at United alone. He didnt need to go elsewhere to "prove himself" to online critics.

When it's all said and done, Ferguson has been listed top 3-5 in almost every top managers list that we've had. Ahead of Ancelotti (that may change when this man is done), Mourinho, Capello and all of these hoppers.

Pep is obviously seminal because of the revolution he catalyzed, so he's normally top 3 not because he's 'proven it' in multiple leagues, but because of his impact.
 
Bebestation said:
I have a feeling Haaland at City will cost them a premier league title whilst them having a stronger chance of winning the CL.

They need that bully type of tap in player that is useful in knock out games.

Doubt is that Pep didn’t exactly make Lewandowaki successful CL wise so maybe that may just be a Guardiola weakness.

A weakness outside La Masia Barcelona, like some others have shown is possible too.
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Pep can't handle strong ego's, he likes players to be subservient to him, look at the issues he had with Ibra at Barcelona.

If a player is too strong minded, then he doesn't know what to do with them.
 
Without even getting to Fergie (definitely the greatest ever manager IMO), there are definitely strong arguments that Mourinho’s managerial career has been better than Pep’s especially due to those back to back, underdog European trophies with Porto. And especially if you factor in spending on wages and transfer fees and what they inherited when they took over, there are also definitely strong arguments that Klopp’s work at Liverpool has been better than his at City.

But in terms of an overall footballing career, it goes without saying that a hugely successful and trophy laden playing career followed by a hugely successful and trophy laden managerial career, clearly beats winning no major trophies at all as a player followed by a hugely successful and trophy laden managerial career. Effectively 'mastering' the sport and getting to the pinnacle (well at least at club level), as both a player and then a manager, with Ancelotti also in that bracket, must be incredibly special indeed.

It's probably completely the wrong way to look at things, but given that his managerial record has often been compared against that of people (Klopp and Mourinho) including who either won no major trophies as a player or had no professional playing career in the first place, I can’t help but have that at the back of my mind.
 
GuybrushThreepwood said:
Without even getting to Fergie (definitely the greatest ever manager IMO), there are definitely strong arguments that Mourinho’s managerial career has been better than Pep’s especially due to those back to back, underdog European trophies with Porto. And especially if you factor in spending on wages and transfer fees and what they inherited when they took over, there are also definitely strong arguments that Klopp’s work at Liverpool has been better than his at City.

But in terms of an overall footballing career, it goes without saying that a hugely successful and trophy laden playing career followed by a hugely successful and trophy laden managerial career, clearly beats winning no major trophies at all as a player followed by a hugely successful and trophy laden managerial career. Effectively 'mastering' the sport and getting to the pinnacle (well at least at club level), as both a player and then a manager, with Ancelotti also in that bracket, must be incredibly special indeed.

It's probably completely the wrong way to look at things, but given that his managerial record has often been compared against that of people (Klopp and Mourinho) including who either won no major trophies as a player or had no professional playing career in the first place, I can’t help but have that at the back of my mind.
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If Ancelotti beats Liverpool in the final coming up (and I think we ALL want that to happen) he will definitely be ahead of Pep, in terms of a managerial career, and I would say his playing career as well.

Don Carlo, has already won league titles as a manager in Spain, Italy, Germany and England, with also having won the Champions League as a manager as well.
His is a career as a manager that deserves soooo much respect.
 
genardk said:
As great as SAF was, he didn't do well enough in Europe and is unproven outside the UK.

No other coach than Guardiola has the ability to create such dominant teams with entertaining football in 3 major leagues. I doubt SAF would be that successful at Barca or Bayern, different language/mentality/culture..
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You're really trying to say that fergie didn't do well enough in Europe as an argument for Pep?
 
Judas said:
I still struggle to see how people find their football exciting to watch. Cutback cutback cutback, strangling the life out of teams with possession. Granted I'm happy it worked yesterday eventually, but I don't enjoy watching their games, and having sat through more than I normally would over the last couple of months hasn't changed that.
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Agreed. It’s like playing a game of PES years ago when triple tapping circle would provide a low cross that the AI couldn’t handle. They just spam that all game
 
adexkola said:
If it's a valid stick for Pep it's a valid stick for SAF.
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It really isn't a valid stick for Sir Alex, as Sir Alex has won more European trophies than Pep, and with a significantly lower cost to do so.
 
MUW4Eva said:
It really isn't a valid stick for Sir Alex, as Sir Alex has won more European trophies than Pep, and with a significantly lower cost to do so.
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It absolutely is. Unless you're telling me 2 CLs is an acceptable haul for United over the course of SAF's tenure, with the quality teams we had? Yes, even taking the 3 foreigner rule into account?

Before you reply with a bunch of nuanced arguments, that nuance seems to go out the window when we are talking about Pep, so save it
 
MUW4Eva said:
If Ancelotti beats Liverpool in the final coming up (and I think we ALL want that to happen) he will definitely be ahead of Pep, in terms of a managerial career, and I would say his playing career as well.

Don Carlo, has already won league titles as a manager in Spain, Italy, Germany and England, with also having won the Champions League as a manager as well.
His is a career as a manager that deserves soooo much respect.
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If Real win in Paris, Ancelotti will have won the European Cup / Champions League twice as a player (back to back including scoring a stunning goal in Milan's 1989 semi-final win), and then a record 4 times as a manager. That would be immense (well his record as a player / manager is already amazing as it is).
 
adexkola said:
It absolutely is. Unless you're telling me 2 CLs is an acceptable haul for United over the course of SAF's tenure, with the quality teams we had? Yes, even taking the 3 foreigner rule into account?

Before you reply with a bunch of nuanced arguments, that nuance seems to go out the window when we are talking about Pep, so save it
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Why are you seemingly ignoring the European trophy that Sir Alex won with Aberdeen??
Why downplay that gargantuan achievement??

What is going out of the door with Pep, yes he has done very well on a domestic level wherever he has managed (although not close to Don Carlo there), but we are talking about what it takes ti be the very best.

For me Sir Alex is wayyy ahead of everyone else, then ot is between Don Carlo and Jose for second and third place, with Pep after them, and Carlos Bianchi after him.
 
GuybrushThreepwood said:
If Real win in Paris, Ancelotti will have won the European Cup / Champions League twice as a player (back to back including scoring a stunning goal in Milan's 1989 semi-final win), and then a record 4 times as a manager. That would be immense (well his record as a player / manager is already amazing as it is).
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Exactly, his achievements as both player and manager are amazing, and somehow go under the radar when talking about the best top level managers.

One could also have a quick word about Zidane as a player and manager, his achievements have also been pushed to one side.
 
MUW4Eva said:
Why are you seemingly ignoring the European trophy that Sir Alex won with Aberdeen??
Why downplay that gargantuan achievement??

What is going out of the door with Pep, yes he has done very well on a domestic level wherever he has managed (although not close to Don Carlo there), but we are talking about what it takes ti be the very best.

For me Sir Alex is wayyy ahead of everyone else, then ot is between Don Carlo and Jose for second and third place, with Pep after them, and Carlos Bianchi after him.
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Who said I'm downplaying it? I'm speaking about SAF's European accomplishments at United. He underachieved. Some would say significantly. His accomplishments at Aberdeen (amazing) have nothing to do with his tenure at United.
 
adexkola said:
Who said I'm downplaying it? I'm speaking about SAF's European accomplishments at United. He underachieved. Some would say significantly. His accomplishments at Aberdeen (amazing) have nothing to do with his tenure at United.
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They have everything to do with speaking about his career as a whole, just as presumably we are speaking as a whole with regards to Pep, unless we just stick to his time at one particular club?

Career v career as a whole, Sir Alex is just on a whole different higher level than Pep.
 
adexkola said:
It absolutely is. Unless you're telling me 2 CLs is an acceptable haul for United over the course of SAF's tenure, with the quality teams we had? Yes, even taking the 3 foreigner rule into account?

Before you reply with a bunch of nuanced arguments, that nuance seems to go out the window when we are talking about Pep, so save it
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We definitely should have won more.

As should Pep with the teams he's had. It's criminal he hasn't won with Bayern or city
 
I think we were about 15 mins away from Pep leaving and Liverpool winning the next 3 titles unopposed.
 
The idea that you have to win at a club like Aberdeen or Porto in order to truly prove yourself is ridiculous. If you're good enough to skip that step, then you have done good. Pep is clearly ahead of Jose now, there's not doubt about it - yes, Jose had great acheivements in Porto and Inter but overall Pep is ahead now. And that gap will likely get wider in the next few years.

I also don't get the need to point out that he has underachieved in Europe, because if he has then certainly "the greatest of all time" Sir Alex did as well (I'm going to disregard Cup Winner's Cup since that hasn't been a tournament for almost 25 years) which I'm sure not many here would argue for. I don't think either has, because Champions League is a difficult tournament to win, it's small margins and both of them could have easily won it more times with a little bit of luck on their side. They have both won it twice which is a great achievement in itself. Sure, Carlo has won it thrice and might win it again this week, but he has managed top European sides for almost two decades and only managed to win something like 5 league titles which is far more an underachievement than antything the other top managers has done.
 
On the subject of Fergie's record in Europe, when he retired only 1 manager in history had won the European Cup / Champions League more often than him at that stage, Bob Paisley.

During the entire span of his 35 years in charge of both Aberdeen and Man Utd from 1978-2013, only one other manager won as many major European trophies (excluding Super Cups) as him during that period, Trapattoni who also won 4.

So I always thought it was a bit harsh to say that he underachieved in Europe. I do think that his 2nd CL win in 2008 was huge for his legacy though.

During his 27 years at Utd, they had a lower net and gross spend on transfer fees than Liverpool, and in Europe while of course there were some disappointing exits, he was often up against big spending Italian and Spanish giants, the likes of Bayern etc.
 
CoopersDream said:
The idea that you have to win at a club like Aberdeen or Porto in order to truly prove yourself is ridiculous. If you're good enough to skip that step, then you have done good. Pep is clearly ahead of Jose now, there's not doubt about it - yes, Jose had great acheivements in Porto and Inter but overall Pep is ahead now. And that gap will likely get wider in the next few years.

I also don't get the need to point out that he has underachieved in Europe, because if he has then certainly "the greatest of all time" Sir Alex did as well (I'm going to disregard Cup Winner's Cup since that hasn't been a tournament for almost 25 years) which I'm sure not many here would argue for. I don't think either has, because Champions League is a difficult tournament to win, it's small margins and both of them could have easily won it more times with a little bit of luck on their side. They have both won it twice which is a great achievement in itself. Sure, Carlo has won it thrice and might win it again this week, but he has managed top European sides for almost two decades and only managed to win something like 5 league titles which is far more an underachievement than antything the other top managers has done.
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Why should the Cup Winners Cup win be disregarded, just because it happened a while ago??
That win was gargantuan in it is size or scale of achievement.
I don't see why it should just be ignored, we are talking about taking a very provincial club in Aberdeen, one that certainly didn't have ANY history, or pedigree of success, and turning them into THE dominant side on Scotland, and then unbelievably, impossibly so, taking them to European glory, by beating Real Madrid!!

Just please let that sink in, look at what Aberdeen have done or achieved since Sir Alex left them,would you or anyone else say that they will be winning ANY European trophy again any time soon, nevermind beating Real Madrid in a European final!

I don't honestly see how this success, can just be tossed to one side, as if it is meaningless, of irrelevant, when it is the total opposite.
It just shows how great of an achievement it is.

People rightly speak of Clough taking Forest to European Cup glories, and that as well was an unbelievable feat, one that really does deserve the upmost respect, but so does what Sir Alex did with Aberdeen.
 
Pep is quite underrated on this website, I find it amazing people think he isn’t miles better than Mourinho. What’s Jose doing at Roma while Pep sweeps league titles every year?
 
Tavern in the town said:
Pep is quite underrated on this website, I find it amazing people think he isn’t miles better than Mourinho. What’s Jose doing at Roma while Pep sweeps league titles every year?
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What was Pep doing whilst Jose was winning the UCL with Porto? Jose has just passed his peak, but peak Jose (especially his insane home record) was a monster.

Both are among the GOAT managers though, don't get me wrong.
 
GuybrushThreepwood said:
On the subject of Fergie's record in Europe, when he retired only 1 manager in history had won the European Cup / Champions League more often than him at that stage, Bob Paisley.

During the entire span of his 35 years in charge of both Aberdeen and Man Utd from 1978-2013, only one other manager won as many major European trophies (excluding Super Cups) as him during that period, Trapattoni who also won 4.

So I always thought it was a bit harsh to say that he underachieved in Europe. I do think that his 2nd CL win in 2008 was huge for his legacy though.

During his 27 years at Utd, they had a lower net and gross spend on transfer fees than Liverpool, and in Europe while of course there were some disappointing exits, he was often up against big spending Italian and Spanish giants, the likes of Bayern etc.
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Our fans are weird. They want to belittle everything SAF does.
 
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