'Pep' Guardiola sack watch

[Oranges038]

He tries to be too clever in these matches and it fecks him over again and again.

Loved it last night, just like last year in the CL final when his team ran out of ideas and patience on the ball, went rogue and started going route one with nobody in there to even compete for a high ball. All that money and all his great ideas and they end up resorting to the oldest tactic in the book.

 

[Dancfc]

He's done an amazing job on the league level, extraordinary i would say.
With bayern it was different, they would win the league anyway so it made sense to sack him if he failed in Europe but thats not really the case in prem, pool could easily sweep up all the league titles if they get rid so kinda risky.

Not nesseserily. They have sacked two managers since because they were looking very likely to blow it. In a lot of ways it's harder to take over teams who have won it all, imagine having to convince players who have just won the treble without you to buy into your ideas? As we saw with Rafa at Inter it's not as 'easy' as made out.

I would take the "he's had it easy" line more seriously if people were actually saying (paraphrasing) "it's okay he has inherited the best team ever" in 2008 when he was appointed at Barca or weren't for years claiming he'd get found out in the PL by the likes of Stoke and Pulis.

 

[Tavern in the town]

This hasn't been true for a long time. The elite of European football regularly reach multiple Cl finals in short periods of time. Peps sides don't do this and its down to the manager. There is no other variable.

That’s my point though, the elite teams generally do not let chaos affect them. Liverpool the other day got absolutely schooled in the first half, and blew a comfortable lead. City in that situation would have crumbled, they don’t react well to setbacks at all. They’re far too reliant on Pep’s mechanisms, they’ve had any sort of individualism coached out of them. De Bruyne is the only player who tries to drag them through games when shit hits the fan, the rest are fragile.

 

[horsechoker]

Interesting that in the 11 times Pep’s been knocked out of the CL, 8 of those times were due to a flurry of goals that came at the result of a collapse.

Systems will only take you so far, you need characters to take control of the game when things start to fall apart

It speaks to how football at the very top in the highest stakes games becomes more psychological and less skill based as footballers at that stage are generally equal in talent.

 

[adexkola]

Fergie literally couldn’t field his best team for most of the 90s.

In the 2000s, sure you can argue that between 99 and 03, we underperformed, but I’d counter that while we had a great team, it was not anywhere near the current super squads in the game, so there are always other European giants capable of beating us. The only real blemish is that semi final loss against Leverkusen, then we entered a few years of rebuild and once it finished we had a run of minimum semi/final or losing to eventual winner/finalist for 7 years until the group stage exit in 2012, when cracks were showing.

It was a massively different football landscape, if anything, the constraints he operated under handicapped Fergie for years in Europe, not the other way around.

You see this lovely nuance as applied to Fergie? Sounds much better than "2 CLs with the sides he had, what a fraud".

 

[mu4c_20le]

You see this lovely nuance as applied to Fergie? Sounds much better than "2 CLs with the sides he had, what a fraud".

You think city and united are the same?

 

[kaiser1]

This is a really interesting situation.
Sure City have won 4/5 last PL titles if they win this year.
But when he was at Bayern they did the same? Barca also.

The question is, would those clubs or Madrid or PSG allow that from their mangers
I’m sceptical, I think at most top European clubs he would be sacked.

When he left Bayern his tenure was considered a failure, they won the league each year which is a given but the real hard stick was the CL, because it is expected with the resources and squad that they will win Bundesliga, City with infinitely more resource and a better squad you would imagine that they would expect one CL in the years he has been there.

the year after he left, they won the treble.

im sorry but the cult of Pep can not ignore the hard facts, no amount of inverted fullbacks will stop that.

Klopp is an infinitely better coach.

After Pep left Bayern, We had Carlo Ancelotti, Jupp Heynckes return and Robert Kovac before winning a treble with Flick

 

[kaiser1]

He's done an amazing job on the league level, extraordinary i would say.
With bayern it was different, they would win the league anyway so it made sense to sack him if he failed in Europe but thats not really the case in prem, pool could easily sweep up all the league titles if they get rid so kinda risky.

Bayern didnt sack him, We actually begged him for an extension till the very last minute and he declined

 

[adexkola]

You think city and united are the same?

They are literally not the same. Different names.

But besides that, the same way someone comes across as ignorant when calling Ferguson's record in Europe fraudulent...

It is very funny seeing when nuance starts to selectively get introduced into conversations based on the subjects in question

 

[Red the Bear]

Not nesseserily. They have sacked two managers since because they were looking very likely to blow it. In a lot of ways it's harder to take over teams who have won it all, imagine having to convince players who have just won the treble without you to buy into your ideas? As we saw with Rafa at Inter it's not as 'easy' as made out.

I would take the "he's had it easy" line more seriously if people were actually saying (paraphrasing) "it's okay he has inherited the best team ever" in 2008 when he was appointed at Barca or weren't for years claiming he'd get found out in the PL by the likes of Stoke and Pulis.

Nowhere did I say he got it easy, in fact i praised his League record calling it extraordinary (or are you pointing that to other people? ).

In bayern I think it was apparent that players downed tools in those 2 cases specifically to get the manager sacked, the upper management had no other choice and with inter, it was a matter of time before they fell down a hole, that team was already old , mou just extracted the last bit of juice he could out of them.

Pep has only underperformed due to the high expectations set by his barca era success still lingering in minds of the people, his record has been a constant success otherwise.

 

[kaiser1]

Fergie literally couldn’t field his best team for most of the 90s.

In the 2000s, sure you can argue that between 99 and 03, we underperformed, but I’d counter that while we had a great team, it was not anywhere near the current super squads in the game, so there are always other European giants capable of beating us. The only real blemish is that semi final loss against Leverkusen, then we entered a few years of rebuild and once it finished we had a run of minimum semi/final or losing to eventual winner/finalist for 7 years until the group stage exit in 2012, when cracks were showing.

It was a massively different football landscape, if anything, the constraints he operated under handicapped Fergie for years in Europe, not the other way around.

You were massive favourites to win vs Madrid in 2000. That Madrid team was probably the worst ever, but they also beat Bayern and finished 6th in La Liga

 

[Red the Bear]

Bayern didnt sack him, We actually begged him for an extension till the very last minute and he declined

I'm aware, just saying it would have made sense to so in bayern due to your league dominance .

 

[Dancfc]

Nowhere did I say he got it easy, in fact i praised his League record calling it extraordinary (or are you pointing that to other people? ).

In bayern I think it was apparent that players downed tools in those 2 cases specifically to get the manager sacked, the upper management had no other choice and with inter, it was a matter of time before they fell down a hole, that team was already old , mou just extracted the last bit of juice he could out of them.

Pep has only underperformed due to the high expectations set by his barca era success still lingering in minds of the people, his record has been a constant success otherwise.

Yeah that last paragraph was a general statement.

Regarding the bolded bit that's probably true but also puts into light that it isn't easy to keep those core players motivated to keep going when listening to the same voice for a while, something Pep managed to keep up his whole time there.

 

[kaiser1]

That’s my point though, the elite teams generally do not let chaos affect them. Liverpool the other day got absolutely schooled in the first half, and blew a comfortable lead. City in that situation would have crumbled, they don’t react well to setbacks at all. They’re far too reliant on Pep’s mechanisms, they’ve had any sort of individualism coached out of them. De Bruyne is the only player who tries to drag them through games when shit hits the fan, the rest are fragile.

There is a world of difference playing Villareal and playing Madrid. Madrid are European royalty with class players top to bottom who have seen it all. I have lost count of the number of "undeserved" CL titles they have where people would have written them off beginning to half season and by March they turn it on and just win. Bayern has been a victim of this Madrid mentality a few times

 

[poleglass red]

This is a really interesting situation.
Sure City have won 4/5 last PL titles if they win this year.
But when he was at Bayern they did the same? Barca also.

The question is, would those clubs or Madrid or PSG allow that from their mangers
I’m sceptical, I think at most top European clubs he would be sacked.

When he left Bayern his tenure was considered a failure, they won the league each year which is a given but the real hard stick was the CL, because it is expected with the resources and squad that they will win Bundesliga, City with infinitely more resource and a better squad you would imagine that they would expect one CL in the years he has been there.

the year after he left, they won the treble.

im sorry but the cult of Pep can not ignore the hard facts, no amount of inverted fullbacks will stop that.

Klopp is an infinitely better coach.

Pep getting stick and rightly so for his lack of success in Europe, but it's the same for Klopp re the league, he's won one league with Liverpool

 

[Tavern in the town]

There is a world of difference playing Villareal and playing Madrid. Madrid are European royalty with class players top to bottom who have seen it all. I have lost count of the number of "undeserved" CL titles they have where people would have written them off beginning to half season and by March they turn it on and just win

Yes of course, but we have tonnes of prior evidence of City collapses that weren’t against Real. They’ve had collapses against Monaco, Lyon and even Spurs. I’m quite certain they wouldn’t have recovered if Villarreal had them on the ropes.

 

[Red the Bear]

Fergie literally couldn’t field his best team for most of the 90s.

In the 2000s, sure you can argue that between 99 and 03, we underperformed, but I’d counter that while we had a great team, it was not anywhere near the current super squads in the game, so there are always other European giants capable of beating us. The only real blemish is that semi final loss against Leverkusen, then we entered a few years of rebuild and once it finished we had a run of minimum semi/final or losing to eventual winner/finalist for 7 years until the group stage exit in 2012, when cracks were showing.

It was a massively different football landscape, if anything, the constraints he operated under handicapped Fergie for years in Europe, not the other way around.

You said it yourself, we underperformed massively from 1997 to 2003, not necessarily his fault but how could you call we going out to bvb (an infuriating game i must say ) and bayern leverkusen any less disappointing than vity going out to real when they had much less of a European pedigree .
I'm not holding the early 90s against him obviously bossman fecked us (always found Irish and Scottish player being considered foreign in football terms damaging to English teams in that era).

There are other cases as well like Porto, going out on infuriating terms against bayern 9/10 and Madrid 12/13 also we were the favorites in the 8/9 final.

Pep hasn't done much worse to be honest (his lyon and Monaco exits were the most embarrassing but the lyon one was under extenuating circumstances).

 

[mu4c_20le]

They are literally not the same. Different names.

But besides that, the same way someone comes across as ignorant when calling Ferguson's record in Europe fraudulent...

It is very funny seeing when nuance starts to selectively get introduced into conversations based on the subjects in question

Pretty sure most people using that word are tongue in cheek, he's a great manager. But expectations are a bit different when you're bankrolled by a state.

 

[Red the Bear]

Yeah that last paragraph was a general statement.

Regarding the bolded bit that's probably true but also puts into light that it isn't easy to keep those core players motivated to keep going when listening to the same voice for a while, something Pep managed to keep up his whole time there.

I agree wholeheartedly, though i find players downing tools to be one of the more reprehensible things done in football.

 

[Red the Bear]

You were massive favourites to win vs Madrid in 2000. That Madrid team was probably the worst ever, but they also beat Bayern and finished 6th in La Liga

Madrid had the tendency to go full on cl mode when it became apparent that the league was lost, did the same when they won it against juve and to a certain extent in 17/18.
Kinda like what milan did under ancelloti.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

You were massive favourites to win vs Madrid in 2000. That Madrid team was probably the worst ever, but they also beat Bayern and finished 6th in La Liga

We also lost to you the year after, that’s why I said between 99-03 we probably underperformed, should’ve made another final at least, regardless, tactical naïveté aside, we operated under a budget constraint and instead of being able to add to a winning team, we made some rather baffling balancing the book decisions during those years, and continued to operate with the same core of 15 ish players until some of them left or form dropped, necessitating a rebuild.

Personally, I think the ‘Fraudiola’ stuff is mostly sour grape, and he deserved full credits for that Barcelona side instead of the old, tired ‘anyone could win with that squad’. However, any comparison with Fergie ignores the gulf between the resources they could utilize and the general football landscape, and on that count, making only 1 final since he left Barcelona 10 years ago must be seen as an underachievement, to some degrees.

 

[Ole'sattheWheel]

Got speaking to a city fan last night after the match and he was saying he wants Pep gone now. Ridiculous

 

[Dancfc]

I agree wholeheartedly, though i find players downing tools to be one of the more reprehensible things done in football.

I'm a little bit more fluid when it comes to that score.

As someone who's worked under toxic bosses I know how hard it can get to do your job to your very best even if you want too.

Ofcourse there are some cases of players genuinely jacking it in because they can but there will also be cases of managers making players lives a misery aswell.

 

[MUFC OK]

Adding Haaland might be enough for him to win it. Have a feeling that Klopp could do something mad like the 3 peat.

 

[kaiser1]

Madrid had the tendency to go full on cl mode when it became apparent that the league was lost, did the same when they won it against juve and to a certain extent in 17/18.
Kinda like what milan did under ancelloti.

That Madrid of 2000 was just horrible, Bayern beat them home and away in the groups 8-3. They struggled to qualify from the groups needing a last matchday 1-0 win vs Rosenburg
They had an average team of Anelka McManaman, Campo, Karanka and a 19yr old Casillas still won the CL

 

[Red the Bear]

I'm a little bit more fluid when it comes to that score.

As someone who's worked under toxic bosses I know how hard it can get to do your job to your very best even if you want too.

Ofcourse there are some cases of players genuinely jacking it in because they can but there will also be cases of managers making players lives a misery aswell.

That's a fair enough point but I find really hard to extrapolate that to multi millionaire athletes throwing a hissy fit when they're egos get hurt.

Every manager has the right to be given at least a chance to implement his ideals and have complete control over his players any termination of contract should be due to lack of success on the pitch
My position is probably too idealistic but die to Fergie I'm subscriber to the cult of the manager I'll imagine you having a different perspective due to being a fan of Chelsea.

 

[Red the Bear]

That Madrid of 2000 was just horrible, Bayern beat them home and away in the groups 8-3. They struggled to qualify from the groups needing a last matchday 1-0 win vs Rosenburg
They had an average team of Anelka McManaman, Campo, Karanka and a 19yr old Casillas still won the CL

Yeah we shat the bed in that game, very frustrating but that is life.

Madrid just have that extra something when it gets to europe, they've had it since 98.

 

[MUFC OK]

That Madrid of 2000 was just horrible, Bayern beat them home and away in the groups 8-3. They struggled to qualify from the groups needing a last matchday 1-0 win vs Rosenburg
They had an average team of Anelka McManaman, Campo, Karanka and a 19yr old Casillas still won the CL

Yeah we shat the bed in that game, very frustrating but that is life.

Madrid just have that extra something when it gets to europe, they've had it since 98.

People seem to forget how badly they wanted the decima and how it continually evaded them for years - 12 in fact and they needed prime Ronaldo before they managed to do break the drought.

The biggest take away from CL successes/woes is how important it is to play the game, not the occasion.

 

[Dancfc]

That's a fair enough point but I find really hard to extrapolate that to multi millionaire athletes throwing a hissy fit when they're egos get hurt.

Every manager has the right to be given at least a chance to implement his ideals and have complete control over his players any termination of contract should be due to lack of success on the pitch
My position is probably too idealistic but die to Fergie I'm subscriber to the cult of the manager I'll imagine you having a different perspective due to being a fan of Chelsea.

It's a case by case basis for me. For example I'd side with Tuchel if he had a battle with Lukaku but I was sympathetic with Willian when he went up against Conte because all reliable sources were saying that the latter's behaviour that season was unbearable. If I haven't got enough information I tend to take an open mind both ways.

Generally speaking though Roman's methods actually swing Chelsea fans more to the give time to the manager. This time it's the right thing to do but it was the general consensus even with AVB.

 

[Red the Bear]

It's a case by case basis for me. For example I'd side with Tuchel if he had a battle with Lukaku but I was sympathetic with Willian when he went up against Conte because all reliable sources were saying that the latter's behaviour that season was unbearable.

Generally speaking though Roman's methods actually swing Chelsea fans more to the give time to the manager. This time it's the right thing to do but it was the general consensus even with AVB.

I find it interesting that you say this considering how much success you lot aggregated through his methods.

 

[Irwin99]

Also I think Fergie comparisons are fair, while Fergie didn't spend nowhere near what pep has done he still underperformed massively in Europe my only gripe with him in fact, that's just the way things are some managers just do it better in Europe and also sometimes you just get lucky.

the 99 team under-performed after winning the CL without question, but i have to say his 08 side was unlucky to go up against the best club side of all time. His 94 team couldn't field it's best players due to the foreigner restrictions rules which included the Irish players.

 

[Dancfc]

I find it interesting that you say this considering how much success you lot aggregated through his methods.

I think a lot feel that our lack of league consistency is largely down to changing managers which I both agree and disagree with. Agree because if we enticed Pep or Klopp in the mid 10s we'd be a lot better now but disagree because giving it to AVB, Scolari or even Jose post the 2015 collapse would have seen us as far away as we've been since the early 90s. Others do it because they think it's the moral thing to do, an ex poster on the Shed End pulled the no integrity line to anyone who thought replacing Lampard was the right thing.

All about finding the right guy (for a medium/long term stint) which I'm cautiously optimistic we have now.

 

[MUFC OK]

the 99 team under-performed after winning the CL without question, but i have to say his 08 side was unlucky to go up against the best club side of all time. His 94 team couldn't field it's best players due to the foreigner restrictions rules which included the Irish players.

Completely agree, another title in 2009/2011 would have been fair. Pretty depressing knowing that the closest we'll get for a long long time.

 

[GazTheLegend]

Got speaking to a city fan last night after the match and he was saying he wants Pep gone now. Ridiculous

I can't take any city fan who might want Guardiola gone seriously. Replace him with who exactly.

 

[Red the Bear]

the 99 team under-performed after winning the CL without question, but i have to say his 08 side was unlucky to go up against the best club side of all time. His 94 team couldn't field it's best players due to the foreigner restrictions rules which included the Irish players.

I mean I feel were mixing both the 8/9 and the 11/12 Finals to make ourselves feel a tad better and while its true that the gap was humongous in 2011/12 that wasn't really the case in 8/9 as most people had us as the favorites and in fact the possession stats were even though we were deprived of fletcher. (If one of those early chances had gone in the history of club football might have massively changed but alas).
Also in 2009 had we gotten rid of bayern we would have faced inter in the final, a very winnable game for us considering that we had already done so.

My biggest gripe with Fergie was that he never seemed to be able to only concentrate in Europe the way other teams like Madrid and Milan did, the 2004 ucl was easily winnable had we done so (offside goal and all but still).

I'm not holding the early 90s failures against him that team might have been the most perfect 442 team in history but we never could utilize it unfortunately.

 

[Adisa]

He tries to be too clever in these matches and it fecks him over again and again.

Loved it last night, just like last year in the CL final when his team ran out of ideas and patience on the ball, went rogue and started going route one with nobody in there to even compete for a high ball. All that money and all his great ideas and they end up resorting to the oldest tactic in the book.

He put out his best team last night. There was nothing fancy.

 

[Brwned]

That’s incredible

 

[Oranges038]

He put out his best team last night. There was nothing fancy.

Of course not, in his bid to see out the match. He took off Mahrez, Jesus and KDB and brought on the legless Fernandinho, the hopeless Zinchenko and Grealish who again missed another sitter.

He moved his left back to right back and when he brought on Zinchenko. Him and Grealish on the left side just wanted to go forward and not defend. And all 3 goals Madrid goals came down that side.

Could have just brought on someone like Ake, who can actually defend.

 

[giorno]

Feck you bald twat, your only option left now is to retire and go be an hermit in the hymalayas

 

[Suedesi]

That’s my point though, the elite teams generally do not let chaos affect them. Liverpool the other day got absolutely schooled in the first half, and blew a comfortable lead. City in that situation would have crumbled, they don’t react well to setbacks at all. They’re far too reliant on Pep’s mechanisms, they’ve had any sort of individualism coached out of them. De Bruyne is the only player who tries to drag them through games when shit hits the fan, the rest are fragile.

This pretty much sums it up for me. City players don't like it up 'em - they're pugs, when at this level you need wolves.

Technically they're perfect, but at this level of the CL you also need the unquantifiable qualities like leadership, character, spine, hunger, willingness to suffer - which for whatever reason they seem to lack.