Paul Pogba / turned down United offer of 300k as “nothing”

Just to be clear I wasn't picking you or any individual out. It was more making the point that we don't maybe see it as such if it's someone we dislike
Brilliant point to be fair to you. As you stated, some of the language used against Mino definatley has tones of racism to it, but untill you brought it up, how many on here have actually been pulled up by a mod or other users, myself included as I have seen such instances. The proof is in the pudding really, we have a long way to go in understanding and excluding all forms of racism and I don't think someone should be attacked for opening up a very valid discussion about whether negatives of Pogba has undertones of racism.

Running away from such dialogue or trying to sweep it under the rug as an "clearly not" racism with little evidence is the true disservice.
 
Your second para answers your first. On red cafe people have to be more subtle with it. This doesn't mean that people should go around accusing posters of racism, but to me, it means that assuming that nobody is racist due to seeing no overt examples is either naïve or wishful thinking. But listen, that's what I think. You'll think what you want but when I see posters go after another poster because he had the nerve to bring it up? I'ma pipe up...

Okay, I get you now. Well, although I'm not naive enough to believe no racists are lurking amongst us, it's impossible to prove without evidence. If they are out there, then be consoled in the knowledge that the opinion of a racist is absolutely worthless, particularly one that is too cowardly to make their ignorance known. That said, it's probably unfair to accuse people of racism without evidence to support the claim.

In any case, United fans will openly rip into any player they see fit regardless of their skin colour or nationality. We tend to hate indiscriminatley, to our credit :)
 
Okay, I get you now. Well, although I'm not naive enough to believe no racists are lurking amongst us, it's impossible to prove without evidence. If they are out there, then be consoled in the knowledge that the opinion of a racist is absolutely worthless, particularly one that is too cowardly to make their ignorance known. That said, it's probably unfair to accuse people of racism without evidence to support the claim.

In any case, United fans will openly rip into any player they see fit regardless of their skin colour or nationality. We tend to hate indiscriminatley, to our credit :)
Don't even get me started on this one its another of my pet peeves going back to O'Shea and beyond. I think it's just a human thing but it does feel like United fans go overboard with it.
 
I give up with all these Pogba threads, its tiring and pointless debating, no one will move an inch either way. Will try to contribute to more positive threads. Thanks for those who did try to debate sensibly.
 
You said an opinion that aligns with the club will always be more valid than those 'armchair pundits'.

Or does this statement only apply to certain situations that you personally agree with?
I said in this case the manager and club obviously agree with the fact we need him and haven’t gotten the best from him.

How is that relevant to feckin Sanchez ffs. Every transfer/player situation is different, the difference here is we are trying to keep the player. We couldn’t wait to get rid of Sanchez
 
The only circus will be on this forum.


If he stays (which I have always said will happen) he will play a massive role for the club next season and will enjoy himself like every other player. There is a weird segment of the fan base that continuously attack him, even during an international competition and over a summer where he hasn't said that much, or enough to get the pitchforks out.
Remember cristiano's comment about being a slave? Look how much he is idolised and had been since the summer of 09.

Raiola is a cnut I will give you that but Pogba is one of our own. He has spent alot of his time in the North west and loves the club.
Fat boy only says what his client allows him to, therefore, its Pogba saying it through him. Stop defending the indefensible.
 
Imagine being shocked that some of the criticism in here could be down to racism and stereotypes. With all that's been going on in the last few years...
Imagine calling posters racist without any evidence. There's been a lot of that going on for the last few years.
 
Don't even get me started on this one its another of my pet peeves going back to O'Shea and beyond. I think it's just a human thing but it does feel like United fans go overboard with it.

Maguire (slab head), Rashford (Rashford), Shaw (rotund boy), Mctominay (Mcshit), Martial (I don't think he has a name?), Ole (take your fecking pick).

Ole is a good example of unwarranted hate. The poor guy arrived at the club as a young (relatively speaking) fresh baby faced assassin. Look at him now; he's receding, gone grey and shrunk in size. Yes, shrunk.

Crazy stuff.
 
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I said in this case the manager and club obviously agree with the fact we need him and haven’t gotten the best from him.

How is that relevant to feckin Sanchez ffs. Every transfer/player situation is different, the difference here is we are trying to keep the player. We couldn’t wait to get rid of Sanchez

Do I need to remind you exactly what you said?

I disagree if the club decides to keep Pogba by giving him 400k a week contract, however you jumped in and said that your opinion is more valid than those armchair pundits purely for the fact that it aligns with the club's decision.

I’m not more qualified, but my opinion is the one also shared by the entire football industry and more importantly our own club (considering we are trying to keep him.)
 
The last two pages are an absolute sea of drivel.
Mods need to tell a few people to bore off for a bit methinks.
 
Is he the new Rafael Van Der Vart? Plays 60 min and you take him off if he’s not in form? It”s a legitimate question.
Legitimate answer, I would only play him from the bench if really needed, I don't trust him fully not to cock up or just swan about lazily doing nothing.
 
“It’s not racist if it’s true” is the favorite slogan of every great racist I know

to be fair if you actually go back and read the comments leading into it and after it....it wasn't racist in tone or approval.
 
Slabhead is literally a nickname he got by the England squad isn't it? :lol: saying its negative and comparing it to the other clearly nasty nicknames seems a bit mental.
 
The last two pages are an absolute sea of drivel.
Mods need to tell a few people to bore off for a bit methinks.
Very true. I thought there must be some actual news the way the posts were racking up.
 
Why would you assume I agree with every decision the club makes?

The difference here compared to Sanchez is that the club are attempting to correct a problem and make the most of a signing, we overpaid on wages for Sanchez before he kicked a ball, we’re not doing that here.
No, we're possibly going to overpay for a player who has kicked a ball for us.
 
Slabhead is literally a nickname he got by the England squad isn't it? :lol: saying its negative and comparing it to the other clearly nasty nicknames seems a bit mental.

Back in 2018, Maguire revealed that then Leicester City and England teammate Jamie Vardy had given him the nickname, in reference to the size of his head.

Yeah I will happily continue to call my captain as Slabhead.
 
Slabhead is literally a nickname he got by the England squad isn't it? :lol: saying its negative and comparing it to the other clearly nasty nicknames seems a bit mental.

But why does getting a nickname from your international team mate (Vardy (watch out for the loud music at the end)) determine whether it is a positive or negative? Ultimately it depends on what Maguire thinks about it and to be honest, he is unlikely to ever come out and say "I do not like it" because this will inevitably lead to opposition fans taunting him at all the grounds. So we all make an implicit assumption that he does not mind and it is a "positive".
 
:lol: thank feck for that! Fair enough.

Just trying to lighten the mood a little. Hate that this Pogba situation is affecting the positive vibes around the club after signing two world-class players.

Whether he's staying or leaving, I wish he'd just decide already. The last thing we need heading into a new season, one which many have high hopes for, is Pogba's contract situation up in the air.
 
But why does getting a nickname from your international team mate (Vardy (watch out for the loud music at the end)) determine whether it is a positive or negative? Ultimately it depends on what Maguire thinks about it and to be honest, he is unlikely to ever come out and say "I do not like it" because this will inevitably lead to opposition fans taunting him at all the grounds. So we all make an implicit assumption that he does not mind and it is a "positive".

It could be worse.

Someone could have nicknamed him Dog shagger.
 
Pogba being inconsistent is lazy analysis…

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Well said. He's a special player who makes us better and I hope we re-sign him.
 
So bloody frustrating that any midfield signing seemingly hinges on him leaving when we need that DM anyway
 
Do I need to remind you exactly what you said?

I disagree if the club decides to keep Pogba by giving him 400k a week contract, however you jumped in and said that your opinion is more valid than those armchair pundits purely for the fact that it aligns with the club's decision.
You said renewing his deal for top money would undo the positive window we’ve had, quote yourself why don’t you.

In response I said you need to know what Ole and the club has planned for this team, I didn’t say you needed to listen to my opinion, just that it aligned with the club and that the club are trying to keep him for a reason, that reason being he’s obviously not rubbish like many here make out.

You started bringing up totally irrelevant players and past deals which has nothing to do with the topic in question. Becuase your initial statement was bullsh*t so you’ve created irrelevant conjecture.
 
You said renewing his deal for top money would undo the positive window we’ve had, quote yourself why don’t you.

In response I said you need to know what Ole and the club has planned for this team, I didn’t say you needed to listen to my opinion, just that it aligned with the club and that the club are trying to keep him for a reason, that reason being he’s obviously not rubbish like many here make out.

You started bringing up totally irrelevant players and past deals which has nothing to do with the topic in question. Becuase your initial statement was bullsh*t so you’ve created irrelevant conjecture.

Yes that's exactly what I said and I stand by that statement.

I then brought up the mistakes the club has made with contract renewal of DDG into this discussion is because it apparently strengthens your argument as this aligns with the club's decision comparing to those so called 'armchair pundits' that disagree with them.

So I asked did you think DDG new contract was the right decision by the club, since we are not qualified to question the club decision particularly when it comes from those 'armchair pundits'.
 
We can argue systems, positions, and team results, but for me, even today, if we were signing Pogba for 50 million I'd be thrilled.

There is valid criticism in the way he has never fully committed to staying long term, or the behaviour of his agent (which, in fact, is the reason we have him in the first place) and his brothers (worth noting that for all the criticisms his family gets, it was his mother who told him to come back), but it's not like we have been lighting the world on fire lately.

For me, when Pogba has gotten a run in the team, in his preferred positions, he has consistently performed and we've been better for it. We've never really competed since he arrived but that's been in a forgettable team era, and Pogba has just become the most salient object of fans frustration during this period. Pogba has absolutely dominated for long period since his arrival, and I feel it's a bit unfair to lay his price tag and our expectations at his doorstep. Did Griezmann, Coutinho, Hazard, Neymar, James, or even Mbappe transform their clubs? Hardly.

I respect the perspective of wanting him to go, receiving a transfer fee and not ballooning his salary from a squad management perspective, but "Jogba" on a good day (and we can argue how often that occurs) is, for me, arguably our best player. The forum is up in arms about grealish, but Pogba is only about 3 years older and has proven time and time again that he can consistently perform at at least that level, and is *the* midfielder to consistently create opportunities for our ever increasing and improving attacking options. For me, outside of dreaming of KdB or Kimmich, no midfielder certainly improves us.

I understand the frustration. But we cannot wait any longer, we must compete with City and Liverpool and the European giants now. Pogba gives us the best realistic chance. I've insisted that that will depend on whether we can obtain a consistent CDM, or Fred/Mctominay improve, but we all know what Pogba is capable of even in a two with a competent CDM.

I understand the pride of being a Manchester united fan, and not wanting to be toyed with, but name one club ever that hasn't? It's just unrealistic. We need to compete, and I salivate at the prospect of a motivated Pogba (who, performed even under under-fire Mourinho) linking with Sancho, a fit rash, Bruno, Cavani and greenwood. I honestly believe, given how City are strengthening, and the expected performance of Liverpool and City, keeping Pogba is our best chance - and the club know it.
 
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@Flytan @hobbers what's your point of contention? Are you both categorically stating that you believe that there is no racism involved in any of the criticism of or attitudes to Pogba (it's in this thread but we could make it about Martial, Rashford, etc)? Bare in mind most of us have been on this forum long enough to see this exact argument play out numerous times, with posters posting verbatim what's just been posted by yourselves and others.

1st state that none of it is racist, based on stereotypes, etc. (even though you personally know a handful of posters in this thread, at best)
Then make comparisons which tend to miss the point.
Finally, accuse the poster who brought it up of being sensitive (throw in terms like snowflake and SJW).
Etc...

Are you going to say anything new?

I'm curious because whenever I see this go down I'm thinking "So you say there is an element of racism? Ok" bare in mind all the examples of it, to the extent where the club we support has had to release regular statements etc.... Tedious as feck seeing people try to play this stuff down all time tbh.

I'm with you. It's infuriating and horribly predictable. They use the exact same methods and phraseology to insist that no, no, racism has no part in anything ever, even though everyone knows it does, and they then attack the messenger. You could set your clock by it.
 
Whataboutism. Nothing about this was has any overlap with criticisms of Pogba.

Huh? Whataboutism is when someone uses a weak or disingenuous counterargument in a pathetic attempt at a "gotcha." Like when Trump supporters used to say, "But what about Obama when he... blah, blah?" I'm using the example of Lord Digby Jones and his attack on Alex Scott to bolster not refute my argument! If you don't even understand the meaning of whataboutism, then I fear you'll never be able to grasp the antiracism arguments I and others have been trying patiently to explain here. Patience I've pretty much run out of, to be honest.
 
When you see a poster doing that, flag it.

Exactly. It hasn't happened here. Despite some trying to personalize it ("snowflakes," "oversensitive," etc.), those of us trying to discuss criticisms of Paul Pogba within the wider context of societal racism haven't accused any individual of racism. The fact that despite no accusations some feel accused says it all. That's what I meant when I said we all need to examine our own biases and consciences. All of us.
 
We can argue systems, positions, and team results, but for me, even today, if we were signing Pogba for 50 million I'd be thrilled.

There is valid criticism in the way he has never fully committed to staying long term, or the behaviour of his agent (which, in fact, is the reason we have him in the first place) and his brothers (worth noting that for all the criticisms his family gets, it was his mother who told him to come back), but it's not like we have been lighting the world on fire lately.

For me, when Pogba has gotten a run in the team, in his preferred positions, he has consistently performed and we've been better for it. We've never really competed since he arrived but that's been in a forgettable team era, and Pogba has just become the most salient object of fans frustration during this period. Pogba has absolutely dominated for long period since his arrival, and I feel it's a bit unfair to lay his price tag and our expectations at his doorstep. Did Griezmann, Coutinho, Hazard, Neymar, James, or even Mbappe transform their clubs? Hardly.

I respect the perspective of wanting him to go, receiving a transfer fee and not ballooning his salary from a squad management perspective, but "Jogba" on a good day (and we can argue how often that occurs) is, for me, arguably our best player. The forum is up in arms about grealish, but Pogba is only about 3 years older and has proven time and time again that he can consistently perform at at least that level, and is *the* midfielder to consistently create opportunities for our ever increasing and improving attacking options. For me, outside of dreaming of KdB or Kimmich, no midfielder certainly improves us.

I understand the frustration. But we cannot wait any longer, we must compete with City and Liverpool and the European giants now. Pogba gives us the best realistic chance. I've insisted that that will depend on whether we can obtain a consistent CDM, or Fred/Mctominay improve, but we all know what Pogba is capable of even in a two with a competent CDM.

I understand the pride of being a Manchester united fan, and not wanting to be toyed with, but name one club ever that hasn't? It's just unrealistic. We need to compete, and I salivate at the prospect of a motivated Pogba (who, performed even under under-fire Mourinho) linking with Sancho, a fit rash, Bruno, Cavani and greenwood. I honestly believe, given how City are strengthening, and the expected performance of Liverpool and City, keeping Pogba is our best chance - and the club know it.

Excellent post. I can't help thinking that this moment is a key one in our team's future. If we swallow a tiny bit of pride and Pogba stays, there's a good chance he'll kick on in a team that has strengthened itself and rethink any desire he might have to move on next year. A happy Pogba, surrounded by a few world-class teammates amid a strong squad, might end up wanting to finish his career at United, a team he clearly loves.