Paul Pogba / turned down United offer of 300k as “nothing”

[romufc]

One purple patch in 5 years ? Ok.

16/17 - Big chances created
https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/big_chance_created

https://external-preview.redd.it/dR...bp&s=e9bec995fbf603f24d85e8b866f706cd0cfa10cc

You have posted the win/loss ratio from 2/3 years ago mate... go check 2016 to current.

 

[VP89]

One purple patch in 5 years ? Ok.

If ever there was a post built to cherry pick stats.

Firstly, we watch the fecking games, don't patronise us with stats from a few seasons ago to try and put things into context now. Stats alone don't tell you the whole picture but even if you wanted to look at them it's not exactly glowing one way or another as per @hobbers post

 

[He'sRaldo]

Since Ole took over -

With Pogba starting
Played: 49
Won: 25
Drawn: 10
Lost: 14

Goals for: 87
Goals against: 60

Points per game: 1.73
Win rate: 51%
Loss rate: 28.6%
Goals per game: 1.77
Goals against per game: 1.22


Without Pogba starting
Played: 58
Won: 35
Drawn: 11
Lost: 12

Goals for: 110
Goals against: 50

Points per game: 2.0
Win rate: 60.3%
Loss rate: 20.7%
Goals per game: 1.89
Goals against per game: 0.86

He's come from the bench to change the game fairly often, so him starting isn't the best criteria to use to judge his effect on the team. If we're being objective.

 

[romufc]

He's come from the bench to change the game fairly often, so him starting isn't the best criteria to use to judge his effect on the team. If we're being objective.

Fairly often? the ones I can recall, Spurs post lockdown, Leipzig away.

 

[Borys]

You hit the nail on the head. With Pogba, every mistake is a flaw. You'd think Toni Kroos is a defensive genius compared to Pogba for example (and Pogba is far more creative), with the way people go about Pogba here. For me Pogba is a more consistent player than Bruno, but you'll never see some of the discussion we constantly get about Pogba for Bruno. Nor do I think we should, cause I think it is wrong. All midfielders, especially creative ones that take risks give the ball away but you would think Pogba does it far more than most.
I stand by what I said. I have never seen a midfielder as micro-analysed as he is.
I have no doubt in my mind if he was white, short hair, no tattoos, no jewelry, Pogba won't be as divisive a topic. People can deny it all they want. You had a poster earlier saying they don't like him personally...I mean come on. Pogba is one of our most consistent players.

Problem with Pogba is he is not even consistent over 90 mins let alone game to game. Nothing to do with hair, jewelry etc. He flits in and out of games, one great pass or piece of skill will mask a game he was poor in. It frustrates people because the talent is there. We had a similiar issue with Januzaj a few seasons back, when he was on form it was effortless, but when he couldn't be arsed he was woeful. Pogba has talent, no-one doubts that, but his application is poor. People reference the antics of his agent, Pogba himself previously openly spoke about his dream to play for Real and with Zidane. That's infuriating to us fans, our supposedly top player openly saying that. Bruno has been criticised towards the end of last season by us, but that was due to him being overplayed. You see his desire, you compare it to Pogba, it's night and day. Pogba has more natural talent than Bruno, but I know which one I'd put my faith in, and it's nothing to do with skin colour or tattoos.

I actually think both of you are right (the bolded parts).
Pogba will execute a brilliant pass or dribble one minute, and lose the ball due to poor awareness and focus the second minute. He does that almost every game, which is why we know exactly what to espext from him. So he is kind of consistent.
Bruno can be brilliant one game, and very poor another. But it comes in patches so you can more or less expect what will happen.

 

[Tallis]

This may be a stupid observation but the debate of whether he has been consistently good or not good doesn’t really seem to be important at this stage.

He hasn’t renewed his contract. His agent has said he wants to leave. There is a big chance that he will walk away for free next season (he has done it before). It doesn’t seem to be in the clubs hands except if we offer him crazy money which I don’t think anyone wants us to do (speak up if you do).

Then it seems to be logical to sell him. One season of Pogba is not worth £50m of transfer fee plus £12m of wages. Besides, he has spent each of the last 2 seasons injured for a significant period. That money would get us Camavinga (I know he is not a like for like replacement).

 

[He'sRaldo]

Fairly often? the ones I can recall, Spurs post lockdown, Leipzig away.

Last season when Ole stopped playing him through the effects of COVID, he started from and came off the bench quite a few times.

 

[romufc]

Last season when Ole stopped playing him through the effects of COVID, he started from and came off the bench quite a few times.

He got dropped after Spurs game.

Newcastle - 4-1 - Not sure he impacted the game for us to win
Chelsea 0-0 No impact when he came on
Everton away - 3-1 No impact we were winning
Leicester - 2-2 No impact

PSG away - came on and played well got assist

That is the only game where he came on and changed the outcome of the game last season.

 

[Amir]

PSG away - came on and played well got assist

That is the only game where he came on and changed the outcome of the game last season.

Milan away?

 

[Borys]

He's come from the bench to change the game fairly often, so him starting isn't the best criteria to use to judge his effect on the team. If we're being objective.

Him starting the game (or not) is very good and objective criteria. It's for sure the best criteria over long period of time. Unless you can propose a better metric and provide the data of course.

I also think he had a good impact from the bench a few times, but it doesn't change the fact.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

This may be a stupid observation but the debate of whether he has been consistently good or not good doesn’t really seem to be important at this stage.

He hasn’t renewed his contract. His agent has said he wants to leave. There is a big chance that he will walk away for free next season (he has done it before). It doesn’t seem to be in the clubs hands except if we offer him crazy money which I don’t think anyone wants us to do (speak up if you do).

Then it seems to be logical to sell him. One season of Pogba is not worth £50m of transfer fee plus £12m of wages. Besides, he has spent each of the last 2 seasons injured for a significant period. That money would get us Camavinga (I know he is not a like for like replacement).

That’s not stupid at all. If anything, it’s too logical.

 

[He'sRaldo]

He got dropped after Spurs game.

Newcastle - 4-1 - Not sure he impacted the game for us to win
Chelsea 0-0 No impact when he came on
Everton away - 3-1 No impact we were winning
Leicester - 2-2 No impact

PSG away - came on and played well got assist

That is the only game where he came on and changed the outcome of the game last season.

He definitely impacted Newcastle, it was 1-1 before he came on iirc. Don't think he scored or assisted but he did change the dynamic of the game.

It depends on if impact to you stops at goals/assists. Usually the dynamic of the game changes when he comes on, especially if we're struggling.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Him starting the game (or not) is very good and objective criteria. It's for sure the best criteria over long period of time. Unless you can propose a better metric and provide the data of course.

I also think he had a good impact from the bench a few times, but it doesn't change the fact.

It's a good criteria only if you're willing to accept and take into account the flaws/holes in it, because it's obviously not bullet proof.

As is the case with all statistical analyses.

 

[romufc]

He definitely impacted Newcastle, it was 1-1 before he came on iirc. Don't think he scored or assisted but he did change the dynamic of the game.

It depends on if impact to you stops at goals/assists. Usually the dynamic of the game changes when he comes on, especially if we're struggling.

It was more Donny that game that impacted the game.

But anyway Milan away he did impact the game.

So 2 games is not really fairly often really.

 

[Borys]

It's a good criteria only if you're willing to accept and take into account the flaws/holes in it, because it's obviously not bullet proof.

As is the case with all statistical analyses.

It's objective though. Saying "he changed the dynamics of the game" isn't.
I am not sure what you're arguing. He's good from the bench, but the data don't show him having positive impact when he's starting games and I don't see any contr argument.

 

[DoomSlayer]

I'd take 50-60 million Euro from PSG, since it's clear Pogba wants a new challenge. We can't lose him on a free again, it should be out of the question.

 

[He'sRaldo]

It was more Donny that game that impacted the game.

But anyway Milan away he did impact the game.

So 2 games is not really fairly often really.

The point is that these types of statistics aren't as set in stone as they are presented to be, there's a lot more nuance involved in them that an actual in-depth statistical analysis would take into account.

A good example would be IMO Pogba's latest season overall was better than the one where he topped all the stats charts and got into the TOTY. But to make that judgement I'd need to look beyond certain statistics.

 

[gajender]

I actually think both of you are right (the bolded parts).
Pogba will execute a brilliant pass or dribble one minute, and lose the ball due to poor awareness and focus the second minute. He does that almost every game, which is why we know exactly what to espext from him. So he is kind of consistent.
Bruno can be brilliant one game, and very poor another. But it comes in patches so you can more or less expect what will happen.

See this right there is the hypocritical part because all the things Pogba is accused of like inconsistent during the games can be equally applied to Bruno as well but his poor performances can usually be masked by telling contributions .
But due to your inherent bias you are giving him greater leeway and have tried to describe him as brilliant one game and while poor in some but one could argue he is more of a moment's player than Pogba and he isn't the best tactical fit either .

 

[Idxomer]

Since Ole took over -

With Pogba starting
Played: 49
Won: 25
Drawn: 10
Lost: 14

Goals for: 87
Goals against: 60

Points per game: 1.73
Win rate: 51%
Loss rate: 28.6%
Goals per game: 1.77
Goals against per game: 1.22


Without Pogba starting
Played: 58
Won: 35
Drawn: 11
Lost: 12

Goals for: 110
Goals against: 50

Points per game: 2.0
Win rate: 60.3%
Loss rate: 20.7%
Goals per game: 1.89
Goals against per game: 0.86

Are you sure these stats are right? Because with Pogba starting under Ole we won 30 games which makes the rest of the stats suspicious.

 

[devilish]

So he is basically no different from the people you see in every organization. Supremely talented people who realize they are good at what they do and are initially motivated to be the best. But when they realize the sacrifice it takes to be the best, and coupled with the leeway their talent gives them, settle for a comfortable life, doing what is required of them, but never going beyond to what is expected of them.

And fair enough, every organization needs such people, not everyone can be a Michael Jordan or Cristiano Ronaldo. But you can't make such people the key figure in your organization. Based on this then, PSG is indeed the best choice for him, and for us.

That becomes a problem if the employee in question expects to be paid ridiculously well for the job or/and if the guy in question is replacing a long line of very talented people who had always given their 100% for the job. In Pogba's case with United its both. Which is why his worse critics happen to also be his precedessors

I agree with the rest.

 

[romufc]

See this right there is the hypocritical part because all the things Pogba is accused of like inconsistent during the games can be equally applied to Bruno as well but his poor performances can usually be masked by telling contributions .
But due to your inherent bias you are giving him greater leeway and have tried to describe him as brilliant one game and while poor in some but one could argue he is more of a moment's player than Pogba and he isn't the best tactical fit either .

He may play well or not, he does have a direct impact on our games.

Last season Bruno had 28 goals 17 assists, created 95 chances in the PL which was the most.

I mean for someone inconsistent, that number is unmatched by any other midfielder.

So really, he is a better fit because he makes telling contributions all the time, when we need an equaliser, or a winner most likely it has been Bruno at the end of it.

Pogba has hardly done that for us over 5 years.

 

[He'sRaldo]

It's objective though. Saying "he changed the dynamics of the game" isn't.
I am not sure what you're arguing. He's good from the bench, but the data don't show him having positive impact when he's starting games and I don't see any contr argument.

Not arguing anything, everyone is free to come to the conclusion they like. My point was to raise a relevant caveat that wasn't taken into account due to the nature of the data. There are more of course, but the point itself is more important than the exact caveats and thus just one will suffice.

In any case, surely if you present stats and form a conclusion with them, you'd expect to see some holes poked in your theory? If the goal is to use stats to get others to agree with your already formed pov, then what's the point? There are stats that can do that for any pov.

 

[MattofManchester]

See this right there is the hypocritical part because all the things Pogba is accused of like inconsistent during the games can be equally applied to Bruno as well but his poor performances can usually be masked by telling contributions

You just made the point on why it isn't hypocritical.
Bruno makes a contribution. He can be absolutely dire, but somehow create something anyway.
Pogba, bar that City and Newcastle game, never really affects the game when he's poor. In fact, when he's poor, he more often hurts us than not.

There's some serious revisionism going on regarding his performances in this thread.
It almost appears like the hype has superceded the player.

Nevermind that. The fact that there are fans who want one of football's biggest clubs to grovel and succumb to the wishes of a player who couldn't be bothered if it was left in ashes tomorrow and his agent who has continuously been allowed to slander this club's name says it all.

 

[gajender]

He may play well or not, he does have a direct impact on our games.

Last season Bruno had 28 goals 17 assists, created 95 chances in the PL which was the most.

I mean for someone inconsistent, that number is unmatched by any other midfielder.

So really, he is a better fit because he makes telling contributions all the time, when we need an equaliser, or a winner most likely it has been Bruno at the end of it.

Pogba has hardly done that for us over 5 years.

Our team is not the most balanced one and our chance creation happen to be lowest amongst the top four , Individually Bruno's number are great you can't argue with that but I see him more as Mata type figure at Chelsea who has all the play go through him and basically has complete freedom to try anything on field.

Hopefully he would evolve as our team evolves because as the things stand we aren't exactly competing and his role might need some tweaking .

 

[gajender]

You just made the point on why it isn't hypocritical.
Bruno makes a contribution. He can be absolutely dire, but somehow create something anyway.
Pogba, bar that City and Newcastle game, never really affects the game when he's poor. In fact, when he's poor, he more often hurts us than not.

There's some serious revisionism going on regarding his performances in this thread.
It almost appears like the hype has superceded the player.

Nevermind that. The fact that there are fans who want one of football's biggest clubs to grovel and succumb to the wishes of a player who couldn't be bothered if it was left in ashes tomorrow and his agent who has continuously been allowed to slander this club's name says it all.

I don't want United to make unreasonable concessions to keep Pogba either if he doesn't want to sign the contract then sell him now or let him go on free next summer .
But I am not exactly convinced that by basically giving Fernandes a free role on the Pitch is the right tactic for us to actually genuinely challenge for the big trophies.

 

[King7Eric]

That becomes a problem if the employee in question expects to be paid ridiculously well for the job or/and if the guy in question is replacing a long line of very talented people who had always given their 100% for the job. In Pogba's case with United its both. Which is why his worse critics happen to also be his precedessors

I agree with the rest.

Yup pretty much. Totally agree.

 

[sp_107]

Just few generic questions but i am very curious to know about it for a while,

We have a 75M /year deal with Adidas but if they sell 500M worth shirts per annum, Can we get some % of the total kit sales on top of the fixed 75M a year?
Madrid players like Bale/Ronaldo/Beckham paid 50% of their earnings from personal endorsement deals, for example if Bale earns 20M a year from his personal sponsership deals he has to pay 10M to the Club, Do we have similar setup @'UTD?
If Pogba earns 20M a year from his personal sponsership deals does he need to pay some percentage of that to club as his brand value get more fame if he is at clubs like UTD

I know as part of players image rights, we pay some % for using their names and Pogba recieved 5M last year from his image rights so wondering if the other way is also true like Pogba has to play 50% of his own endorsement deals to club

Players are keen to move on clubs like PSG(Neymar/Zlatan) because they earn more on image rights and keep large chunk of their own endersomenrt deals i guess.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Sell him and be done with it.

 

[Random Task]

We were having this same "is Pogba any good" debate four years on the CAF ago, and the answer is the same today as it was back then; if he had produced the goods at an acceptable rate, there would be no need to post cherry-picked stats or, truer still, there wouldn't even be a debate. The human eye tells all. See the Bruno thread for evidence.

That said, maybe it's best for him and us if he cuts his losses and moves to PSG. I'd wish him all the best in that case.

 

[wolvored]

If the transfer tweet on here is true that PSG are going to offer 60 mill Euros, £51.6 mill, then we ought to snap their hand off.

 

[mu4c_20le]

We were having this same "is Pogba any good" debate four years on the CAF ago, and the answer is the same today as it was back then; if he had produced the goods at an acceptable rate, there would be no need to post cherry-picked stats or, truer still, there wouldn't even be a debate. The human eye tells all. See the Bruno thread for evidence.

That said, maybe it's best for him and us if he cuts his losses and moves to PSG. I'd wish him all the best in that case.

Isn't that place a battleground these days? Lots of vocal critics when things aren't going well and he aint' contributing and we cant find him a pen.

 

[Nicoseth]

If the transfer tweet on here is true that PSG are going to offer 60 mill Euros, £51.6 mill, then we ought to snap their hand off.

Agreed.

 

[Hugh Jass]

If the transfer tweet on here is true that PSG are going to offer 60 mill Euros, £51.6 mill, then we ought to snap their hand off.

Agreed.

 

[Random Task]

Isn't that place a battleground these days? Lots of vocal critics when things aren't going well and he aint' contributing and we cant find him a pen.

I haven't read that thread for a while but I'll take your word for it.

The original point stands, minus the evidence of course

 

[mu4c_20le]

I haven't read that thread for a while but I'll take your word for it.

The original point stands, minus the evidence of course

to be fair, for the first copule of months where he looked like he was going to win the balon d'or, you'd be right.

 

[Sayros]

Isn't that place a battleground these days? Lots of vocal critics when things aren't going well and he aint' contributing and we cant find him a pen.

I haven't been, but it wouldn't surprise me, because as some like to point out that stats doesn't tell the whole story with Pogba, same goes for Bruno who's very underwhelming on the eye, very sloppy himself with his passing, but has great stats that can't be denied. The main difference between Bruno and Pogba is that Bruno being higher up, his many poor passes don't affect the team anywhere as much as Pogba from the middle of the park or even his own half. He (Pogba) still hasn't learned to be more careful with the ball in his half and at this point, I suspect he never will.

 

[deleon]

This may be a stupid observation but the debate of whether he has been consistently good or not good doesn’t really seem to be important at this stage.

He hasn’t renewed his contract. His agent has said he wants to leave. There is a big chance that he will walk away for free next season (he has done it before). It doesn’t seem to be in the clubs hands except if we offer him crazy money which I don’t think anyone wants us to do (speak up if you do).

Then it seems to be logical to sell him. One season of Pogba is not worth £50m of transfer fee plus £12m of wages. Besides, he has spent each of the last 2 seasons injured for a significant period. That money would get us Camavinga (I know he is not a like for like replacement).

The alternative isn't necessarily losing him for free. He could be offered an extension with the tacit understanding that he will be allowed to leave the following summer. So it then becomes whether one season of Pogba is worth the (presumed) pay rise but higher eventual transfer fee (also presumed, and perhaps more wildly so).

 

[Artorias]

Agreed.

Me too. Tired of his soap operas every year.

 

[Matt851]

You’re wasting you’re time here mate. The reason people don’t like Pogba is nothing to do with what he does on the pitch. It never has been. People see what they want to see, Pogba’s many good games will be ignored but as soon as he has a bad game they’ll point to that for confirmation bias.

Its hard to argue that he hasnt been inconsistent and injured too often at United. My problem with keeping him would be that he doesnt work with bruno either in a 4231 or a 433. He pkayed well on the left at times last season but i think it unbalances the team

 

[Random Task]

You’re wasting you’re time here mate. The reason people don’t like Pogba is nothing to do with what he does on the pitch. It never has been. People see what they want to see, Pogba’s many good games will be ignored but as soon as he has a bad game they’ll point to that for confirmation bias.

Go on then, why would a United fan judge Pogba on anything but his ability to perform on the pitch? Makes no sense mate.