Hopefully he puts in good performances esp in CL before he leaves.
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I’ve understood your point, it is just a false reflection of what actually happens to me.
And 9/10, after Pogba holds someone off, the next action is a simple pass, not turning and running/dribbling.
It's my first reply to your post. But anyway let's move on.
Why do you think Pogba needs a team built around him when we bought him from a club that didn't build the team around him and his national team with which he has been good since 2016 hasn't built the team around him. Pogba has never been good in a team built around him, we have no example of that, so where the idea comes from that it's needed?
Paul Scholes never had great acceleration and he was able to do it quite regularly. He just lacks a lot in terms of positioning and awareness to be able to free himself into space to do it.
I am not saying he doesn't release a pass when it's on, he's just too slow to do it at times in my opinion.
This habit he has of trying to hold off and spin players is fine if you are playing up top. But, in midfield on the ball, it's all about creating space for yourself to receive the ball and pass the ball. He doesn't do the first one well enough and that means he's often too slow to do the second one. Which is where he likes to invite contact to try and create space and invariably fails.
Scholes is a far smaller person with better acceleration, he wasn't a speed demon but Pogba is slow on the turn.
You do know they don’t play the same position, right?
It looks like a weird flex, to be honest. Wanting to show off how strong and skilful he is.
Another classic Pogba moment happened against Boro. He received a pass near the centre circle under no pressure and for some bizarre reason he chose to control the ball with a flashy chop/Cruyff turn, fecked it up and Boro immediately started pouring towards our box.
So many times he over-complicates what should be simple techniques and creates really dangerous situations for our back four to deal with. It’s why he can’t be relied on in those deeper midfield roles and what makes it so fecking maddening is it’s not a lack of talent, just repeatedly making bad decisions. But he’s 29 years old now. These flaws are here to stay.
You’re mixing up acceleration with balance, agility and most important of all, making the right decision with the direction of his first touch. Scholes never had any acceleration. He didn’t beat players by running quicker than them. He didn’t need to.
It's nothing to do with size or acceleration, it's about positioning and awareness, knowing where the space is and playing into it.
Yaya could do, Viera could do it, Busquets can do it, Effenberg could do it. All big guys like Pogba, who could play midfield and didn't have great pace but could find the space and use it.
No, I'm not. Everyone has acceleration and I'm comparing two players one with really slow acceleration in Pogba and Scholes with a better without being great acceleration. You can add balance, agility and others things which I have done in the past regarding Pogba but I'm not mixing things.
He's been good for France but would you say his performances match his talent/potential for them? He still makes the same defensive mistakes for France as he does for us despite the typically easier opposition on average.
Didn't Juventus often play a 3-4-3? I don't remember. I'd argue having Kante and an additional midfield runner with him for France goes someway towards that.
Do you have an opinion as to why we've never seen the best of Pogba, or anything close to it?
This is my point though, he doesn’t ‘invite’ contact. His teammates pass the ball to him with a man on him, pressing him. Usually, that player isn’t as strong as him, so the way he neutralises that press is by simply keeping that player away from the ball with his body. More often than not, the opponent will have to foul him. It happens every game. Sometimes even straight from De Gea - ball launched at Pogba and he’ll chest it down with a player or even two trying to nip in, but he’ll plant himself and protect the ball until it is firmly under control, and then lay it off. Of course, some may see it as some sort of ‘showing off’, unsurprisingly, but it actually prevents turn over of possession more than it causes it, IMO. It is done under pressure. Most players don’t do it because they aren’t strong enough. And in fact, even some small players do it. Messi does it all the time, all over the pitch. Aguero used to do it too. They protect the ball. If they didn’t have a defender on their back, they wouldn’t be doing it. Nor would Pogba. He could of course just try to spin or dribble in one touch etc, but he’s also likely to be tackled doing that.
If I were playing in midfield against some 10 year olds, in all likelihood, I’d do the same if they tried to put me under pressure, because 9/10, they wouldn’t be able to get around me to get at the ball once I am planted. It is also very hard to do so with Pogba, certainly not without fouling him.
While Pogba can dribble, he isn’t Iniesta-agile where he spins away from pressing midfielders in tight spaces. He will lose the ball when pressed more often if he didn’t hold players off who try to press him, which they often do in modern PL football. As I said, people do it in all circumstances on the pitch, whether at centre forward or centre half. The common theme is them trying to keep the ball under pressure. If that pressure wasn’t there, it wouldn’t happen.
People are talking as if we play some sort of fast paced game until it gets to Pogba then we hit a stop. If we are on the counter or we are flowing, Pogba absolutely does not slow us down. He switches the ball quickly or plays/carries it forward. There is little tempo at all in the scenarios you are describing, and all that is happening is an opponent trying to take the ball off him, which his immediate need is to avoid.
This conversation needs videos tbh.
If it’s the time I am thinking of, he literally had a man on him. Hence the attempt to turn away.
I think the big problem with him on the 'physical battles' point is being 6'3 and built how he is, he is never going to get the soft fouls given in his advantage when the opponent is clearly over-nibbling against him. In the first half last night he was getting punted and grabbed all half and I don't think there was maybe more than one call that went his way.
He's an attacking player isn't he? Let's face he can't defend can he so what is he then?
Always excuses.
Mctominay can be accused of the same. As the most defensive player he should recognise his limitations keep it simple, but time and again
He takes an extra touch instead of releasing it. Difference with Pogba, as the more creative player I don't mind that he tries, and he actually possesses the skill and physical awareness to do it, doesn't always come off and yes it's annoying, but some of you lot would rather we continued with the side to side crab football because no one has the minerals to try something.
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Of course he makes mistakes like every other players and he isn't a defensive player so of course he is going to make mistakes from time to time. But the point that you made wasn't about him being a perfect player but about the necessity of building around him. It's not necessary and has never been a thing.
Juventus didn't play 343/352/433 for Pogba, they played a range of formations that suited all the players in their team. The way France is organized isn't based on Pogba and hasn't been since pre 2016 which was a failure. France used to play in 433 with Pogba and two other midfielders until Griezmann arrived, in 2015-2016 the team moved to a 4231 to accommodate Griezmann, in 2019 France then moved to 3412 because it suited Griezmann who was struggling, Pogba wasn't around since he was injured, the formation was kept because the attackers thrived in it, it allowed to have both Griezmann and Mbappé in their preferred positions.
As to my opinion about why we've never seen the best of Pogba, presumably at United, I would argue that we saw it when we had a balanced starting eleven under Mourinho and Ole. But in general United has been collectively poor with and without Pogba, the only player that has played at his best for a sustained period of time has been De Gea.
He has almost exclusively been used as a CM/DM in 4231. Bruno has almost exclusively been used as a 10/second striker.
How many goals has Bruno scored since he's been taken off penalty?
Well, we’ve got a somewhat different impression of him in this aspect. I’d wish he played the quick ball a lot more often. Mind you, I thought he did this well first half vs Burnley.
To be precise, I’m not talking about going looking for someone to bump into! It’s more a question of what his first instinct is when an opponent is, say, two or three meters off, closing in. The opposite end of the scale are players like Scholes, Xavi, prime Mata (by necessity of course) who managed to turn their physical slightness into a strength because they would so often anticipate, avoid contact and speed up play in the process. Patrick Vieira and Kevin de Bruyne are for me physically strong players who are a lot better at this than Pogba..
He’s done very well and I like the role he’s been deployed under Rangnick based on the last two games. Pleased with performance and I’m scared of losing him because we don’t have enough quality players especially for free. I used to be one of the poster who doesn’t mind to lose him if we can sell him for some fees and use the fees to buy someone else but losing him for free is not the case and I don’t think it’s worthy since we have so many players need to be upgraded.
Again, it's part of his role to find space. He very rarely finds himself free and thus invites the contact.
He still plays like that bolded part, because he's never grown out of that. He still thinks he can push players round and over power them like he could ten years ago in the youth teams.
If he had tried to develop his game enough, he'd have figured out by now how to find space and get away from people and play the ball without them even getting a touch on him most of the time.
If you’re not getting confused then they’re just wrong. Paul Scholes was a slow player. He never had any acceleration to speak of. Any more than the likes of Sergio Busquets, who was also far better than Pogba at getting out of tight spaces without ever needing to run faster than his opponent to do so.
Then if he plays a simple pass anyway, why not do it immediately instead of spending 5 seconds holding somebody off him?
Yup. All the more reason he’s foolish for repeatedly seeking out those physical battles.
Touré and even Vieira are far superior athletes, in particular Touré who had far better acceleration and agility. Vieira would often find himself in similar situation to Pogba's, he would win the physical battle though. Busquets is an interesting mention because while he is a cleaner technician, the way he deals with similar actions is by going to the ground. And anyway all of these players are better than Pogba, so I don't really want to argue too much, some are better athletes or technicians and all are smarter players.
Because more often than not, the easy pass isn't available immediately. Surely we are all aware of how flat footed our players are and how it takes them an eternity to make themselves available?
You are certainly right in that he is not a buzzing centre midfielder like Modric, Xavi, Scholes and co - in constant motion in short shuttles. Perhaps this is due to his physical make up. Weghorst and Messi would deal with evading pressure from a defender in different ways.
Here is a video of all of his touches against Boro (Burnley not available yet). I saw no strength competitions here, just typical one and two touch passing, which is Pogba’s game. This is how he plays every week. When he is physically engaged, he will physically engage.
Video also includes the ‘classic Pogba moment’ as described by @Pogue Mahone where he ‘receives the ball under no pressure but tries to control with a silly Cruyff turn’ or something or another. That is at 01:35.
Erm, because he’s only able to play the pass having gotten rid of the defender nibbling at him?
He's on huge wages but still club could offer him new contract as many players that are on big wages should leave in 5-6 months. Cavani is leaving this summer, Martial possibly, Lingard, Mata, Matić, Henderson, even Ronaldo could be gone.
You do realize that it's not all or nothing? And it's a comparison two slow players can have different level of pace and acceleration, is that wrong?
Well he does. And has. Otherwise you wouldn’t need to be exaggerating that what you are describing happens more than 3 times out of the 60+ times he gets the ball in each game. What do you think happens all then other times that you don’t bother to remember when he gets the ball in space and makes a simple 5 yard pass uncontested? Or does this never happen? Or does it happen only twice a game or something?
Go to YouTube and pull up literally any ‘Pogba vs X - all touches’ videos, and 90% of the time he gets the ball he is not going to be involved in a strength battle. However, given his opponents would like to take the ball from him too, it will of course happen at times, and when it does, he usually manages to hold them off.
Again, take this video from the game before last. Did he just learn how to avoid physical battles last week?
All players get into physical battles in the midfield. When they occur, I never hear how it is somehow down to self-indulgence. Opponents will try to press you and take the ball from you. As I have said, it happens to midfielders, defenders and strikers. People handle it differently. Bruno’s response to being pressed is typically to fall over and hold his ankle, for example. As is Busquets. Others just pass the ball backwards if they can. Others are agile and skilled enough to spin. Players like Pogba and Mousa Dembele use a combination of skill and strength.
Not sure how we’ve even ended up with THIS being the topic in this thread the day after his performance last night anyway.
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The question you quoted was 'what big team is going to build their team around him?'. Not sure how the proposed wage he's looking for is irrelevant in a discussion about his next team.
There was a man on him and he did get away from him, then he slipped...can't hold that instance against him
It's irrelevant to the idea of building around someone and it's not even a thing at the minute. Teams rarely build around a single player and it's rarely required, if rumours are correct Kroos is around that amount and Madrid haven't and aren't building around him or anyone. There is a number of players earning around or more than that and I'm not sure if any of them has a team built around them, they are simply part of a team, some are the best player others aren't and have teammates with higher wages or not.
Even in this response you have not demonstrated any link between the two things.
He did well. Took his goal pretty well. I don't care about him staying but he gets praise when I think his performance is good.
There is no argument to support or defend his point. I would be with him if he simply made the point that Pogba at 29 with his injury record would be a risk at 400k on presumably a long contract. That's the reason why I'm not a fan of the prospect and why I would worry if I was managing one of his pursuers. But the concept of having to build around him or anyone is beyond me, the only player that definitely had a team built around him was Riquelme and it was peculiar at the time.
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