See, that's exactly what I mean with "YouTube player". He obviously produces more assists and key passes since he attempts so many. So he ends up with many hollywood passes you can pack into a YouTube video and pretend the possession losses on the way didn't occur. But they did occur. And every misplaced pass behind the defense could also have been a more controlled one that builds the game up and ultimately brings the attackers in situations in which they can capitalize on their strengths. When I watch Pogba I always get the feeling he's way too impatient for a midfielder. He looks for the through ball prematurely, he looks for the finish prematurely, he turns himself into two opponents and often loses the ball although there was an easy passing option because he's got no patience. His risk taking would be fine for an attacker but not for a midfielder. Every loss off possession are "opportunity costs" and especially against top teams, those balls haunt you. He will never dominate a game against a top opposition this way.
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 42
- Goals
- 6
- Assists
- 6
- Yellow cards
- 9
- Status
See, that's exactly what I mean with "YouTube player". He obviously produces more assists and key passes since he attempts so many. So he ends up with many hollywood passes you can pack into a YouTube video and pretend the possession losses on the way didn't occur. But they did occur. And every misplaced pass behind the defense could also have been a more controlled one that builds the game up and ultimately brings the attackers in situations in which they can capitalize on their strengths. When I watch Pogba I always get the feeling he's way too impatient for a midfielder. He looks for the through ball prematurely, he looks for the finish prematurely, he turns himself into two opponents and often loses the ball although there was an easy passing option because he's got no patience. His risk taking would be fine for an attacker but not for a midfielder. Every loss off possession are "opportunity costs" and especially against top teams, those balls haunt you. He will never dominate a game against a top opposition this way.
See, that's essentially what I'm criticizing. He constantly makes decisions coaches typically try to get out youth players because they lose the ball far too often. Look at the situation at 3:23 in the video posted above. That scene was from the match against Sevilla. He wins the ball back in great fashion but instead of keeping a cool head he hits it blindly towards the wing where three Sevilla players have enough time to play rock paper scissors to decide who's going to control it. But he's not a youth player, he should be hitting his decision making prime.
Again, you could choose to focus on that, or you could alternatively focus on statistics where Pogba scores far higher than Kroos. But this forum in general has a tendency to apply a unique type of assessment to Pogba. The goalposts are forever shifting. All of a sudden, the most important thing for a midfielder is pass completion, then if goals dry up, it will be goals, then if not - chance creation. A poster above literally picked a Southampton game from a couple years ago that showed Pogba create several openings and concluded it was his ‘worst ever game’ because he gave the ball away 3 times in a minute apparently. If the metric was universally applied, the same metric would see players like Bruno or Kevin have terrible games where they are instead considered to have played well.
There are a lot of things that Pogba does considerably better than Kroos. An 85% pass completion, despite whatever spin you are trying to put on it, is not a ground to criticise - especially when that player is, unlike Kroos, not put in the team to stand still and pass the ball from side to side all game.
Come on, he has a pass completion rate of above 85%. That means the vast majority of the time, his decision making is on point. I would say the revere of your argument is true, in that he is a youtube player only in the sense that when you focus on the 7 misplaced passes per game, you ignore 60 well-placed ones. Wouldn't you call that absurd?
This. It's the epitome of what you call a clear agenda.
An agenda with some and a stubbornness with others. Some I feel are willing to die on the hill they've climbed when forming their opinion of him and nothing will change that. Ignoring of course that he puts in better numbers that anybody prior to Bruno's arrival whenever he's fit.
Sorry not sorry.
"Youtube player" one more bs term which doesn't make any sense, especially for a player like Pogba who has such a good numbers.
You could say the same for Neymar then if that's the criteria. I think it's easy to see why Pogba may not be liked by some. Our CM greats have always kept things simple and consistent while always providing high quality. Pogba as you rightly said, can do incredible things but is also capable of immaturity that can't be excused at this level. Carrick for example has had many shockers for us but you never felt he was unreliable, you knew what you were getting with him most times. In Pogba's case, no one has a clue and that's within games let alone across a span of games.
To be fair to Pogba a lot of the midfielders you speak of dribble to avoid a press. Using feints or quick feet to shield being pressed is very different from taking on a man and beating him. Pogba does both where a player like Arthur only does the former.
Of course he's got more assists, he attempts those much more often than Kroos does. If I take more long shots I'll end up with more goals. But that doesn't mean that it's the right decision to take them all the time. My team's chances of scoring increase if I choose a different option, even if my own chances of scoring decrease. Football is a game of probabilities. You have to calculate in milliseconds if a pass/dribble/etc. is worth a try or not. Estimate the likelihood of success and what's to win if you succeed. That's also why generally exceptional dribblers like e. g. Ben Arfa or Emre Mor never became class players since they never learned when to do it. When watching Pogba I feel like isn't really thinking ahead and calculating if it is better to transition into attack now or wait for a better moment. And these flaws are reflected in his statistics. After all, his assist stats may be decent but they're also nothing really special, like for instance de Bruyne. I think if Pogba kept his drive to play through balls in check and was more picky with them, United would be a better side.
It doesn't sound much but it actually is. At the level we're talking about, every loss of possession hurts, especially in midfield. And it's also the manner in which he gives it away. It's a similar concept to "opportunity costs".
There are two separate things to understand here. A loss of possession in midfield is a vastly different situation to a misplaced or inaccurate pass. The loss of possession in midfield is dangerous, but the misplaced pass tends to be a long pass into a harmless area.
The concept of opportunity cost applies both ways. If you play safe all the time, the opportunity cost is that you never create goal. It's obvious. Bruno has 75% passing but is praised for his goal contributions for example.
My thesis is that the probability of a goal is higher when you don't take every chance you get to play a through ball. If the lanes aren't there, you build it up safely and wait for your opportunity. Obviously if you only play sideway passes, you are effectively defending the result, but that's not what I talked about. There's still something in between not attempting a difficult through ball with a high likelihood of failure and only playing sideway passes. You can still play progressive passes, distribute the ball and create space and superiority in certain areas of the pitch without risking possession losses.
Look at the CL final. Bayern dominated the midfield and thus it was very, very hard for Neymar and Mbappe because they had almost zero situations in which they could capitalize on their special abilities. On the other hand, Bayern got Coman and Gnabry into positions in which they could make threatening dribblings etc. quite often while Neymar and Mbappe found themselves in 1 vs. 2 or 3 situations on the wings at the height of the half way line. Thiago didn't play any through ball in that game, he didn't even play a key pass I believe but he absorbed PSG's pressure, retained the ball and distributed it excellently. He skipped situations in which he could play risky passes and played those that were still difficult but had a high likelihood of success and still advanced the attack (even if not to the same degree as a successful through ball would have).
That's what I mean with "game of probabilities". Pogba has a very, very unique combination of world class physique and technique but his decision making is simply not on point if you ask me. Imagine a player like Thiago in Pogba's stead. I believe players like Rashford, Martial and Greenwood would profit immensely from it because they would see more of the ball and end up controlling it in difficult areas more frequently.
@Zehner
You talk as though Pogba just gets the ball and tries a killer pass on every occasion, that's not the case at all.
He is more then capable of keeping the ball moving, but in our team more than often it just comes straight back to him. The team rely on him to find a way to unlock a defence.
We don't have a Kimmich or Davies at fullback.
If you swapped Pogba and Thiago in our team we'd be in no better position.
You talk as though Pogba just gets the ball and tries a killer pass on every occasion, that's not the case at all.
He is more then capable of keeping the ball moving, but in our team more than often it just comes straight back to him. The team rely on him to find a way to unlock a defence.
We don't have a Kimmich or Davies at fullback.
If you swapped Pogba and Thiago in our team we'd be in no better position.
What a waste of time.
The same champions league final were both Neymar and mbappe missed multiple opportunities to score before Bayern could later dominate? Why don’t you guys ever fact check?
I do agree with your stance on not forcefully trying to create when A simple pass to retain possession is needed.
That's not what I meant, though. Both players had good chances, especially in the first half. But how many times could they work their magic from the positions they're used to when PSG dominates matches? Very rarely if at all. Bayern suffocated them, they were almost never in a one vs. one situation in the proximity of the box but usually found themselves outnumbered and under immediate pressure far away from goal. Bayern won that midfield battle, not by creating chances but by absorbing pressure, distributing the ball and setting up attacks.
But I'm glad you agree, thought I was the only one
I do remember that Southampton game and he was really bad. I agree that it was likely his worst ever display but that even on his worst ever game he still created that chance after a turn not many midfielders will pull off during a game.
You call that a youtube player but i think it does show how extremely good Paul Pogba is as a player.
Especially when he plays for your team. But hey ho. This place is very special at times.
I don't get the club's plan. No way we are convincing Pogba to sign a new contract without showing some ambition this summer.
And so far we are on a 2/10 window.
So what's are plan for 12 months from now if things go tits up? We will have to sell him for next to nothing.
And so far we are on a 2/10 window.
So what's are plan for 12 months from now if things go tits up? We will have to sell him for next to nothing.
He’s a Carrington graduate as well. Apparently “one of our own” doesn’t apply to him.
Not sure if anyone has mentioned.
He’s the main man marketing our 3rd kit. Think he’s not only staying but will part of United for years to come.
A happy Pogba.
He’s the main man marketing our 3rd kit. Think he’s not only staying but will part of United for years to come.
A happy Pogba.
You can’t say he’s not a leader!
News has come out tonight we're in for Kante.
I personally find it pathetic that you of all people are always criticising pogba. You don't support united, ffs your German and support Bayer Leverkusen of all shit teams. Yet, you still find it necessary to come into ever pogba debate going, match day threads included, to give him shit. Piss off
Would much rather Sancho over kante. For me our attack is one injury away from being very poor and we have no one who can come off the bench to inject real quality.
Midfield even though we are short at DM we are quite strong overall.
No that's inter.
I agree with you but at the same time if we don't make some major moves this window j don't see him signing a contract. Club needs to show some ambition or it will go back to square 1
Is he the virus or has the virus left him? Hope he is ready to play vs Palace.
If not he will be rested for the league cup.
If not he will be rested for the league cup
.When is his isolation over?
99.9% of the time I don't agree with trolling/name calling but it's probably justified here. There's holding criticism to a player and then there's just a clear agenda bias.
The latter is fine too but don't start trying to rationalise why Pogba makes bad decisions and can't be more like Kroos, Modric, Xavi, Iniesta, Thiago, Veratti etc. You know all great players who play in great teams with great team mates that dominate their 1/2 horse league and play in great systems. Ignore his contributions playing in Juve or in France's team with Deschamps effective and pragmatic but tumescent style. It's definitely Pogba's fault he's not a glorified ball recyler.
Crotia dominated possession in the World Cup Final but Pogba's team won. Therefore Pogba has proved that Modric and Rakitic are poor players, who can only play safe passes. My thesis is that the probability of a goal is higher if those two played more through balls and tried to force the issue more. But they didn't, so Pogba is a much better player. Let's ignore all other factors, like tactics, team mates and coaching etc.
That's this poster's logic right here.
The thing is, the one's 'defending' Pogba are not saying he can't improve or is immune to criticism. It's just the ridiculous hypothesising placing unrealistic comparisons and standards.
Why can't Pogba be more like KVB? Yes the same great KDB that performs so well in a City team, that when he was out for the whole season, the team still blitzed the league.
Contender for post of the year.
"Fanboys"The very definition of fanboys enjoying a youtube highlights player
"YouTube highlights player"
You say you like Pogba but weirdly get triggered whenever United fans - deservedly - praise him. Strange.
Is there a point to this post or even a question?
Deserve is also in the eye of the beholder.
I agree with this. The Sancho signing is crucial on so many levels, it's shocking we're still dithering.
Back in training today.
The point is I don't get why you have a consistent problem with people praising him. Labelling them "fanboys" is very childish. He's a United player and people are going to support him.
I don't get why you have a consistent problem with my criticising him, which is my way of demanding more from him, so also supporting the team.
Also I didn't invent the term 'fanboy', its used widely and it's your opinion that its childish.
I have no problem with those thinking we should sell him or that he's not lived up to his price tag/potential. I disagree, but I have no problem with it.
The problem I have is that you've routinely gone round calling people fanboys and telling them to support someone else because they do support Pogba.
I’ve had enough of the manager harbouring nothing players with a bad attitude. If Ole can’t rid the squad of these bad apples then he should go. Ole out.
Absolutely agree. Exact same thing in the Sancho thread. It’s like the go to argument if you don’t agree with someone is to call them a fanboy, it’s tremendously tiresome
Im not a fan of Pogba and never have been. I wanted him gone years ago. I think his attitude his awful. When it gets tough he goes awol. He's a sulky prima donna in my opinion. Id love to sell him back to juve or fleece madrid for a fortune.
- Status