These aren’t mutually exclusive statements.
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These aren’t mutually exclusive statements.
Yes Pogba is limited like every single player on earth and these things aren't mutually exclusive. Most players improve over the years, they all have limitations and also have irremedial flaws. By your logic all players should have the same level after a certain amount of years which is clearly not the case.
Where as I mostly agree with you, I don't think De Bruyne is as great as people make him out to be. Whenever I watch him live he seems to perform a bit less than what I expect from him.
EDIT - Dare I say he may also be seen as a......................moments player?
Where as I mostly agree with you, I don't think De Bruyne is as great as people make him out to be. Whenever I watch him live he seems to perform a bit less than what I expect from him.
EDIT - Dare I say he may also be seen as a......................moments player?
Your description is accurate, he is closer to a super powered Ozil than a Xavi, Iniesta or even Scholes. I don't think that Pogba or De Bruyne are signifcantly different in terms of their approach of the game, De Bruyne is just better at it. The funny thing about De Bruyne and Pogba is that during one of the last games we played against City he messed badly and provoked a goal, people barely mentioned it, if it was Pogba we would still hear about it.
I know that. My logic is not that all players should be on the same level.
We're talking about a player who has a very high level of natural ability. But in my view has not addressed any of the major flaws in his game. Players with lesser natural ability have shown more improvement over their careers than him, Henderson, Fletcher, Carrick, Keane, Lampard, naturally less gifted than Pogba but all worked harder on their games and became integral parts of teams.
What areas has he significantly improved on?
What can he not improve on?
It's not really that for me. I think Pogba is and has an amazing talent, and can do things with the ball that not very many others can do. I remember even when he was in the u-18s, we just could never tell where he was going to end up. If he didn't want to change, then I remember thinking he'd be the perfect AM for a Serie A side (which ironically is what he might end up being best known for). But if he wanted to maximise all of the physical and technical talents he had, then more was needed to be done.
However, that process never happened and he has never been able to put it all in to a fully coherent package, and IMO, I think that is down to the first move out of Utd he made. My reasoning for that is, just like the free spirit we had with Ronaldo, so too was a similar free spirit in Pogba. Fergie broke Ronaldo down to his base elements and stripped away any semblance of tactical freedom until he was able to channel his talents to the benefits of the team, and it was only when Ronaldo could prove he could reliably work for the team, that he got that tactical freedom back. If Pogba had stayed on, I have zero doubts that SAF would have done exactly the same for him, making him a much more complete player and someone who would have actually ended up being the complete midfielder.
Instead, he went to Juve and he got indulged. Prime Pirlo, Marchisio and Vidal did all the hard yards and graft in midfield, allowing Pogba to be the spare man in attack and midfield. While for France, he had the human duracell bunny in Ngolo Kante and Blaise Matuidi following a similar work ethic, which frees him up.
At Utd, and while I absolutely agree that half of the blame is on the club for not figuring out what we actually bought, nevertheless, we have tried to make it work. We've tried the France/Juve method and he just doesn't do enough for the team (albeit with a supporting cast that isn't as good). And when he's played as the 10 (just like he was at Juve briefly) he also flattered to deceive. While we don't have to say anything about him as part of the double pivot here either. Where he works best then, is as a LW in Ole's lopsided 4-2-3-1, but we already have Rashford there who for me, is a better, more consistent threat on the left than he is on the right.
So essentially what we have, is an outstanding talent but someone who isn't really a great fit for modern football, and certainly not someone who you can build the team around. He's a cherry on top of the icing, which is on top of the cake. The key for us is to figure out his plans. Does he want to stay, or does he want to go?
Personally, I'm pretty laissez-faire on the issue, even if he leaves on a free. I don't think we're going to rue his loss as unlike last time (when you could see the succession plan was in progress with Scholes retiring within a year) we now seem to be pretty well set. If we're going down the route of a like-for-like replacement, then we seem to have a potential gem with Mejbri coming through and Donny also here as an approximate replacement (as well as Bruno). If we're going down the route of considering Pogba as the LW, then for me, Rashford is already that man. If we do sell Pogba, then that all-important and crucial DM will almost certainly be bought which will make us a much, much better team and will go a long way to completing the rebuild we've been on for what seems like an eternity. And if he stays, then likewise great, we have an absolutely stellar talent who we have now finally seem to have figured out the strengths and weaknesses of.
So any reliable links to us offering him a huge new contract?
To be honest I'm all for renewing his contract, we need to retain our best players not lose them, he still figures as part of the finished article that we aim to be. Imo at least.
Renewing his contract, even at improved terms for him, is better than selling him for half of what we paid for him and potentially either overspending on a lesser player or worse spending the money we get for him on players who won't have a big impact on our starting 11 (like Trippier etc.)
To be honest I'm all for renewing his contract, we need to retain our best players not lose them, he still figures as part of the finished article that we aim to be. Imo at least.
Renewing his contract, even at improved terms for him, is better than selling him for half of what we paid for him and potentially either overspending on a lesser player or worse spending the money we get for him on players who won't have a big impact on our starting 11 (like Trippier etc.)
Tactically, positionally and defensively Pogba is signficantly better today than he was 10 years ago, in fact he improved significantly during his first years at Juventus and Conte is on record about how shocked he was by the fact that Pogba was tactically clueless when he joined them. And that's the limitation that he has, while Pogba improved a lot in those areas, he will most likely never be as good as players that were better at 18 years old, he will never have the awareness and understanding of everything that is happening on the field when he isn't on the ball and isn't chasing opponents or the ball.
And the issue most likely comes from the fact that Pogba was an attacking player at youth level, he was a 10 and he had to learn a new game at senior level. Depending on how someone process information, they may or may not adopt new traits.
Balanced post and a lot of fair points some of which I agree with. Pogba is an enigma. It's like 2 groups are watching 2 different players when it comes to judging him but at least in my case it's nothing to do with hate. Putting aside all the times he's publicly declared he wants to leave United which has obviously done him no favours my biggest disappointment with Pogba as strange as it may sound is when Ole first took over. Those 3 months he was pure class showing us exactly the player we all thought we had signed. He was enormous. Then it all came crashing down.
Depending on how people see a player some might put the blame on Ole for tweaking his tactics for the collapse, because that's what it was. At the time I thought it was Pogba wanting to show Mourinho exactly what sort of player he had and once he done that he reverted back to going through the motions in a lot of the following games. My opinion since then hasn't changed. It's almost as if Pogba picks and chooses the games he wants to show up in which in my mind is something we don't need which is why I couldn't care less if Pogba stays or goes. He's always been a square peg in a round hole which is pretty obvious because we still don't know his best position in all the time he's been here. The latest is if Pogba had a Kante type player beside him then he could shine but as that's not going to happen for at least another season or 2 then I do think it's for the best if we try and get something for him this summer.
To answer another of your questions the 3 months after his best spell for us (those 3 moths after Ole took over) he was shocking (as was the rest of the team) those 6 months showed the absolute best and the absolute worst of Pogba and at the time it really did seem as if we were watching 2 different players.
I was worried I would get attacked because the De Bruyne praise is heavy on here. He is often used as the stick to beat Pogba with as if he does what Pogba is suppose to do but PERFECTLY. I may have been guilty of this myself maybe once upon a time so I allowed myself the eye test and......well.......it's a bit different to the narrative
Basically three of the main requirements for being a midfielder at any level. Amazing then that he still can't play there without having to have someone to cover his ass defensively.
I stand by my point, he's immensely talented he just lacks the desire and the application to improve himself as a player.
He loves playing for France. You could see that.
He doesn't like playing for United.
Last time i saw him trully happy playing for us was when Zlatan was around.
Maybe it's us, maybe it's him. Who the feck knows. He's probably baffled by it as well.
The one thing i do know is, something's gotta give. He either starts giving it all for us, or he fecks off and finds a happier place for himself.
He doesn't like playing for United.
Last time i saw him trully happy playing for us was when Zlatan was around.
Maybe it's us, maybe it's him. Who the feck knows. He's probably baffled by it as well.
The one thing i do know is, something's gotta give. He either starts giving it all for us, or he fecks off and finds a happier place for himself.
Don't take this the wrong way but do you actually watch or follow football? Why do you think prime Modric and Kroos had Casemiro behind them? Or the great Chelsea had Makélélé behind Lampard? Kaka and Rui Costa a combination of Seedorf/Ambrosini/Gattuso?
I will say it once again, even great players have limitations. There isn't a player out there that doesn't need to be covered, sheltered or any term that you want to use. Football is played with 11 players and none of them are perfect.
The difference is that those guys were all intelligent hard-working players who struck the right balance with each other and could trust each other to do the right most of the time.
There's a difference between striking a balance in a complimentary midfield and having to try and shoe horn players in to make sure you have cover for the flaws and deficiencies of another. That's the problem with him at Utd, he can't be trusted and is a liability in midfield even with cover. Maybe he's different for France, I don't watch enough of them to know.
This makes no sense, all of these teams created balance by having players with roles that were specifically designed to cover for other midfielders. You basically have one logic for Pogba and forfeits it for every other players. Pogba was also playing in perfectly balanced midfield at Juventus, in fact he did it with several midfield.
No need for that man.
You don't know what's different between having a balance of players who compliment each other and trying to shoe horn a liability of a player into a team?
If Lampard was played in a midfield with players whose skill set don't complement his, I’m sure he’d be called a liability too, as was often the case with England.
I don’t think it is, Pogba is excellent technically, but I just think there are thinks KDB can do on the ball that Pogba can’t.
This guy has really held this club to ransom for years now.
God I hope we sell him this summer. If we get £30-40m or a swap deal, I wouldn't lose any sleep.
God I hope we sell him this summer. If we get £30-40m or a swap deal, I wouldn't lose any sleep.
Yes, but I think the converse is also true.
Pogba while not being the greatest midfielder he is perfectly capable of playing in balanced midfield at very high level whether in three or two in the Midfield albeit bit inconsistent sometimes , while is he is compared with other good to great midfielders one thing is quite deliberately ignored is that they mostly play in three man midfield which obviously gives them greater opportunity to hide their weaknesses while accentuating their strengths.
Same happened with Scholes and Gerrard for England. Same has happened with other players, Veron is a fine example of it at Utd before.
Lampard at Chelsea though, it didn't matter who was behind him he still put in the same high levels of performances consistently.
Agreed, most players of his profile and skill set have the luxury of 2 other midfielders doing the dirty work. Not that Pogba should be absolved of defensive duties, just that it adds some context.
It's a genuine question, I don't see how you can write what he wrote without being purposely dishonest or not following football. At which point do you think that someone can reasonably make the point that a player being covered by an other is something special in Football, it's as if defensive midfielders and covering systems/tactics weren't a staple of Football.
Maybe yeah, like what though? I think Pogba is better at using his body to beat players, but I’d argue that’s more a physical aspect than technical.
He did, but to be fair, and correct me if I’m wrong, Lampard played exclusively as the most attacking of three midfielders right? Whilst Pogba isn’t as good or as consistent as Lampard, I do think he’d be thought of more highly by his detractors if he was afforded the same luxuries.
He played both, that more advanced role but I think he played a bit more games as more of a central midfielder. Lampard was an incredibly intelligent, hard working and reliable player.
Pogba was tried in that role before Bruno came in. He was played in central midfield and in a more defensive midfield role. He's not been good enough in any of them regardless of who is beside him. That is more a reflection on him than the other players.
Not too sure about the bolded, when Ole came in he played him in that role, and Pogba was by far our best player in that period, putting up numbers to Bruno.
Knowing us, making him the highest paid in the pl is the likeliest outcome. We would do it to save face( instead of lose him for free or cheap compared to what we got) and out of ignorance that with Pogba in the team we have can win the league disregarding that he doesnt suit our set up
There seems to be an assumption that anyone who doesn’t think Pogba is gash week in week out is incapable of a balanced view. I’d say it’s more the other way around.
I really don't see how you arrive at that conclusion. Pogba has had great games, poor games and everything in between both as part of a midfield three and a deeper midfield two - there is no correlation between his performances and his position.
The addition of Carrick to the midfield in Pogba's first season - which you say was necessary - was abandoned as the season neared it's end in favour of the Herrera-Pogba double pivot - that you say couldn't be persisted with.
'His form fell apart' most aptly describes how his strong performances when Solskjaer first took over tailed off, despite Pogba being deployed as the most attacking of a midfield three.
Last season he was consistently good after a poor start, a class above Bruno and Cavani, and far better than every other midfielder and attacker in the squad.
Seriously?
Rashford till Jan, Fred, Cavani, AWB, Bruno, Shaw, Maguire all more consistent for me last season. They all, Cavani aside, played about 2000 more minutes than him too.
Hes a really good player but injuries and inconsistency are his enemy.
Yeah i dont think so. A bit of recency bias imo as his good form came at the end of the season after Rashford and Bruno's had tailed off. I think the two of them carried our attack for most of the season.
Cavani took time to settle, was injured, suspended but finished the season strong. Greenwood didn't really get going till the 2nd half of the season. James did ok with the few chances he got. Pogba scored and assisted some important goals but in terms of pure numbers, its not great for a player playing in the front 3 for a lot of the season. Greenwood had 12 goals and 5 assists, Martial who everyone agrees was terrible last season had 7 goals and 5 assists. Even McTominay got 7 goals, a lot of them important too from what i remember.
Our midfield was a dysfunctional mess every match that didn't have Fred and McTominay sitting in front of our defence for most of the season. It got more stable as the season wore on and dropping one for Pogba against southampton became an option but you wouldn't trust it against anyone good. Using him as an attacking player was a response to him being a bit of a liability with any defensive responsibility. He can do a job in a mata role out wide but i think the most sensible way forward for a manager to make use of him is as the most attacking midfielder in a 3. Which leaves a straight choice between him and Bruno and its an easy choice.
Cavani took time to settle, was injured, suspended but finished the season strong. Greenwood didn't really get going till the 2nd half of the season. James did ok with the few chances he got. Pogba scored and assisted some important goals but in terms of pure numbers, its not great for a player playing in the front 3 for a lot of the season. Greenwood had 12 goals and 5 assists, Martial who everyone agrees was terrible last season had 7 goals and 5 assists. Even McTominay got 7 goals, a lot of them important too from what i remember.
Our midfield was a dysfunctional mess every match that didn't have Fred and McTominay sitting in front of our defence for most of the season. It got more stable as the season wore on and dropping one for Pogba against southampton became an option but you wouldn't trust it against anyone good. Using him as an attacking player was a response to him being a bit of a liability with any defensive responsibility. He can do a job in a mata role out wide but i think the most sensible way forward for a manager to make use of him is as the most attacking midfielder in a 3. Which leaves a straight choice between him and Bruno and its an easy choice.
Of the players you mentioned, 3 are defenders (so not mids and attackers) and the rest don't have poor/mediocre performances slotted away in an "inconsistency" bucket the way Pogba does.
If every mistake or poor performance was proof of inconsistency, then last season Pogba was more consistent than the majority of our players.
None of the rest of them are asking for 400k to stay on. They’ve all played way more football for us. I’m not denying he’s a good player but his best position is gone to Bruno now. Bruno is harder working and more in line with what we need in the pl, along with his obvious leadership. the defensive side, pressing and tracking can’t be overlooked. Plus the agent hassle. I think this list is very fair.
https://www.unitedinfocus.com/colum...teds-five-best-players-of-the-2020-21-season/
Whoscored have him 4th on stats after Bruno (AWB) and Rashford. Once again. Not our best. Like I was replying to the poster above. He’s not been anywhere close to our best player last season.
There was a FA Cup semi against Spurs, 17/18 I think (he assisted Sanchez's header), and one early during Ole's time (assisted Rashford), I felt he did well in both overall and had a quantifiable impact. Finally, the 4-0 win vs Chelsea at the start of 19/20, 2 assists and generally ran the show, easy MotM.
Might be missing a few more decent but not dominating performances, like the awful 0-0 vs City last season where he was the best of a bad bunch.
Do you have evidence of him asking for 400k to stay on? Evidence that others are not doing so? Because otherwise it's all just part of the Pogba circus which fans contribute heavily to. I prefer to ignore all that stuff.
As for Whoscored, I'd have a lot of players over Rashford and Bruno consistency-wise last season (and I'm sure you'd agree in the case of Rashford). Shaw, Fred, Pogba, Maguire, to name a few. So while I acknowledge their stats, I disagree with the conclusion.
In any case, all that has little to do with what I was saying. I'm not saying anything else beyond the bounds of his consistency compared to his teammates last season, and at the end of the day he was one of our most consistent players, yet inconsistency is still being talked about like he has a special problem with that. He doesn't, he's just as consistent as anyone else in the side.
We didn't switch to a Herrera - Pogba double pivot by the end of this season. Fellaini was a third midfielder whenever Carrick wasn't present, which was what happened in the Ajax final.
There's no way Pogba was better than Cavani and Bruno last season either. He had a good season, but you are overrating it at this point.
Good post and that’s fair enough. I guess judging his consistency is as much a matter of taste as anything else. Each player probably had quite a few bad games with the way we dropped off. Only really Mason and Cavani finished the season on form. I felt like Pogba dropped off after he was moved back central too. I will say he has a poor injury record. Last time I checked he’s missed in and around 450 days since he signed (according to transfermarkt) That’s got to be a major consistency killer.
No evidence on the wages. Just what I read in the Athletic (he’s supposedly on 290,000 now) and then what we hear from his agent every few months. Going by mino its pretty clear he doesn’t really want to be here all that much and his heart isn’t it, it sounds just like DDG to be honest. making him our highest paid player to buy his loyalty (if that’s what actually happens) would probably just be yet another world class wage gamble that will backfire.
Saying that I can also totally see it from the clubs side if they do sign him. Its obviously been a sizeable investment. it’s quite embarrassing that we couldn’t sell him for a good enough fee over the years and that there’s a high chance he’s going to leave on a free for the second time. I think that just about sums up his time here. Loads of hype and fanfare, world record fee, flashes of brilliance but with one foot out the door nearly the whole time.
The club are sending mixed signals though. If they really wanted him they could have offered him a deal last summer when the noises were positive with the Bruno feel good factor and we’d qualified for CL. I bet we could have signed him up for less per week if we’d been proactive instead of entertaining the possibility of being held to ransom this year. The thing is I genuinely think the delay is intentional because of doubts about Pogbas motivation, consistency and injuries vs the amounts of money he’ll probably be asking for. Is there a willingness to keep working with Mino unless totally necessary? Is that kind of package actually worth it for the club now that Bruno is here too? I’m not so sure.
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