[M16Red]

That's interesting. Would you be able to break those stats down to per game?

No.

 

[Mr.Ridiculous__]

He will never perform for United like he do with France, unless we get a top class DM next to him. He also looks much more motivated in the blue shirt. Just sell him and move on imo. Hopefully the Euros would bump his price up as well

Sell him? Are you serious

 

[jesperjaap]

Maybe because Bruno has scored 26 in 1.5 seasons.

To put that into context - Pogba has scored 28 in 5... I can see why..

Personally hate stats. I am a fan of Fernandes who of course has been an excellent signing and personally am not of Pogba. SO yes I agree with waht you are saying. But at the same time, lets not pretend Fernandes has been excellent the second half of this season as really, he hasnt. Of course he has a great attitude, leadership and runs and runs and runs.....most importantly he always tries to do something decisive and he has decisive moments which show stats liek that you have shown. But he (yes partly due to trying to be decisive) has given the ball away, had a bad touch running into players just as much the last 6months more, than players many fans lambast....but due to his fantastic moments and decisive contributions, seems immune from criticism, he shouldnt be and he certainly for me shouldnt have got player of he season for the general standard of his performances over 90mins the last 6months

 

[jesperjaap]

Sell him? Are you serious

Whether you like him or not, you have to consider the fact he wants £80-90m in wages over the next 4 years. Either we give him that cotnract, let him run it down and leave on a free and forgetting the economics of that, a player running down a contract cant be good for the dressing room OR we sell him.

Personally I think a last year and free move is terrible as an option and I dont think we will allow that to happen and for me I simply vcant see how the last five years here justifies such a contract which again could be bad for the dressing room, its a near Sanchez contract and its more than lilely a player that is costing us a fortune and hard to shift in time...a player that will be 31-32 by that point.

I presonally (not at England expense of course) hope he has a good Euros and a big side comes in for him.....what I think we will do is offer him a contact he is not worthy of, though not certain he will actually sign it and then we really do have a problem as that probably means that last yea happens

 

[TsuWave]

Pogba is good but not so fecking good that we build a team around him.

this "building team around" nonsense again. you guys need to break free from these shackles man. there aren't any elite teams building teams around one player

 

[Marwood]

He doesn't. The poster is chatting shit and making things up. McCoist praised Pogba on about 3 different occasions, pointed out a slightly heavy touch in the offside goal, and the poster reacted like he burned his house down.

Oh I know, I'm just interested to know why the poster would think McCoist has a problem with Pogba.

 

[VinzentFTW]

Sell him? Are you serious

Do you want him to go for free the year after? That would be the second time we let him go without getting anything in return.

 

[M16Red]

Personally hate stats. I am a fan of Fernandes who of course has been an excellent signing and personally am not of Pogba. SO yes I agree with waht you are saying. But at the same time, lets not pretend Fernandes has been excellent the second half of this season as really, he hasnt. Of course he has a great attitude, leadership and runs and runs and runs.....most importantly he always tries to do something decisive and he has decisive moments which show stats liek that you have shown. But he (yes partly due to trying to be decisive) has given the ball away, had a bad touch running into players just as much the last 6months more, than players many fans lambast....but due to his fantastic moments and decisive contributions, seems immune from criticism, he shouldnt be and he certainly for me shouldnt have got player of he season for the general standard of his performances over 90mins the last 6months

Bruno is not immune, but we've been trying to shoehorn Pogba in since he came back. I think its been at a detriment to the team balance - playing Pogba on the left and Rashford on the right for example, this is not Pogba’s fault it's the managers.

They are speaking about pogba right now on BBC and saying he's happy playing for France.. no your wrong BBC pretty lady, its because he'd have two players closing him down in the EPL on first touch.

But he is a very good player, just isn't the very good player we need IMO..

 

[laughtersassassin]

A nice Defensive stat. Exactly as in the world cup. Kante doesn't do ALL the defensive work as some people want to have you believe.

What's key is having the right set-up and styles of players etc

It's really not that complicated. Pogba is a number 8. Everyone knew that when we signed him.

We also knew he was best in a 3. Our poor planning in general has not got the best out of the players we have at our disposal.

 

[thepolice123]

Don't think that was even a great performance. It was a typical good performance where he played to his abilities and showed why he is the most talented player on the pitch.

Tactically, there isn't much difference from how Ole uses him. He is covered by two box-to-box midfielders and generally positions himself at the area of the midfield where he is nearer to the flanks. The only difference is France plays with two wing forwards so they don't need him to stretch the play as much. Their fullbacks also provide a lot of movement and support.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Do you want him to go for free the year after? That would be the second time we let him go without getting anything in return.

If we manage to let Pogba go for free twice, we will be the biggest clowns in football as far as transfers go.

 

[Jeppers7]

Oh I know, I'm just interested to know why the poster would think McCoist has a problem with Pogba.

I don’t think he has a problem with Pogba.

 

[laughtersassassin]

Do you want him to go for free the year after? That would be the second time we let him go without getting anything in return.

If we manage to let Pogba go for free twice, we will be the biggest clowns in football as far as transfers go.

We will. But that said we are already up there with the biggest clowns in football these past few years.

I'd say it's better to risk going big this summer and trying to complete our rebuild with a DM.

Things change quickly in football. Better to fill in the gaps especially at DM and there is very chance he'd stay.

Would also help if when the fans return they don't boo him like they have a tendency to sometimes do. By now he knows all too well he isn't appreciated or even liked by many.

 

[Beachryan]

He's so good at what he does. He'll always look amazing when teams are attacking us/France. There's space around him, and if he beats one man he has time to look up and play passes that only he and other special players can.

The issue is against low block teams where we dominate posession. Where he tries too hard and loses it in bad places, because options are harder.

He actually lost the ball a couple times tonight in dangerous areas, but his team is so, so good that it was barely an issue. How many times has he lost it for on the halfway line, but we've managed to then concede despite having 4 other players and a keeper back?

He's great, talented and a superstar. Is he what we need? I'm still not sure. I don't think Fernandes and Pogba can both exist at their best in the same team. So if we're all in on Fernandes, we won't get the best Pogba, and vice versa.

 

[Offside]

I really don’t see how he’s “better” for France. He has plenty of moments of pure brilliance in a United shirt and has plenty of donkey moments in a French shirt. I think he’s just looks a little more comfortable and is perceived as being better in the much superior French midfield. United need to sort out our midfield to get the best out of Pogba and Fernandes.

He also gets a lot of undue stick playing for United simply because of the high standards of the United pundits and the dislike of all the other pundits. None of them give a shit about France so they give Pogba an easier time.

 

[kopviolator]

Outstanding

 

[Marwood]

I don’t think he has a problem with Pogba.

As below you said McCoist has treated him harshly and displays the negative bias typical of the media. All because he said Pogba took a heavy touch.

I'd call that McCoist having a problem with Pogba.

Let's not use "problem." We'll use your exact words.

Why would MCoist, about as happy go lucky type of guy there is in football, have a negative bias towards Pogba?

Ally McCoist summing up why Pogba is so harshly treated. The negative bias in the media is incredible towards Pogba.

 

[Member 109952]

He's so good at what he does. He'll always look amazing when teams are attacking us/France. There's space around him, and if he beats one man he has time to look up and play passes that only he and other special players can.

The issue is against low block teams where we dominate posession. Where he tries too hard and loses it in bad places, because options are harder.

He actually lost the ball a couple times tonight in dangerous areas, but his team is so, so good that it was barely an issue. How many times has he lost it for on the halfway line, but we've managed to then concede despite having 4 other players and a keeper back?

He's great, talented and a superstar. Is he what we need? I'm still not sure. I don't think Fernandes and Pogba can both exist at their best in the same team. So if we're all in on Fernandes, we won't get the best Pogba, and vice versa.

Pretty much this. I've always been a big fan of his and he's an exceptionally talented player. But it's been up and down in our team, and with Bruno in there now it just forces him back where he's not that good. Realistically we can't play him and Bruno against the top teams as neither have any defensive inclination. The ideal setup is DM - Fred/Mctominay - Bruno/Pogba.

If we got a good offer for him I'd sell and reinvest in the DM, RW positions. He'd suit a team like PSG very well, they have great attackers (like France), and energy now with Wjnaldum. What they've lacked is someone who can pass the ball into the attackers. If he continues to have a good Euros I'd think a team like PSG should seriously look at him because he'd elevate their team a lot. For us he just doesn't fit in very well, we've tried to shoehorn him into the wide attack positions where he is good but it's not a natural fit.

 

[Marwood]

Bruno is not immune, but we've been trying to shoehorn Pogba in since he came back. I think its been at a detriment to the team balance - playing Pogba on the left and Rashford on the right for example, this is not Pogba’s fault it's the managers.

They are speaking about pogba right now on BBC and saying he's happy playing for France.. no your wrong BBC pretty lady, its because he'd have two players closing him down in the EPL on first touch.

But he is a very good player, just isn't the very good player we need IMO..

Yep. This is so clearly the primary difference. He likes to play football at his own pace, dwell on the ball, take plenty of touches. But the Premier League doesn't allow it. International level he gets that bit of extra time and the talent shows.

He's not the first gifted player to be like this and won't be the last. I thought the same of Veron. Scholes could do everything he could but did it two seconds faster. At times I felt the same of Nani.

 

[Member 109952]

As below you said McCoist has treated him harshly and displays the negative bias typical of the media. All because he said Pogba took a heavy touch.

I'd call that McCoist having a problem with Pogba.

Let's not use "problem." We'll use your exact words.

Why would MCoist, about as happy go lucky type of guy there is in football, have a negative bias towards Pogba?

Tbf Mcoist also called Pogba slightly underhitting a pass 'a hospital pass' too, and criticised him once or twice more in the game. No praise at all for all the passes he made, which would've led to three goals if not for the offsides. No criticism for the likes of Rabiot whom Mcoist actually praised despite Rabiot not having a great game. It may not be a conscious bias but it shows up with the selective criticism and the lack of praise for any of the good.

 

[Marwood]

Tbf Mcoist also called Pogba slightly underhitting a pass 'a hospital pass' too, and criticised him once or twice more in the game. No praise at all for all the passes he made, which would've led to three goals if not for the offsides. No criticism for the likes of Rabiot whom Mcoist actually praised despite Rabiot not having a great game. It may not be a conscious bias but it shows up with the selective criticism and the lack of praise for any of the good.

Nah just not true. On the pass that created the goal, his exact words.

"It's a good ball, it really is a good ball."

But aside from your point being factually incorrect, why would McCoist have a sub conscious bias towards him? If you're going to throw that around I think you have to back it up a bit. Otherwise it's not really fair is it.

You can't tell me he doesn't like extroverted footballers who change their hair. He loves Gazza.

 

[VP89]

this "building team around" nonsense again. you guys need to break free from these shackles man. there aren't any elite teams building teams around one player

Exactly

 

[Jeppers7]

Tbf Mcoist also called Pogba slightly underhitting a pass 'a hospital pass' too, and criticised him once or twice more in the game. No praise at all for all the passes he made, which would've led to three goals if not for the offsides. No criticism for the likes of Rabiot whom Mcoist actually praised despite Rabiot not having a great game. It may not be a conscious bias but it shows up with the selective criticism and the lack of praise for any of the good.

Yeah I totally agree, I’m not saying there’s a conscious bias but there’s a negative narrative in England around Pogba and any praise seems to always be tempered. With someone like Kante for example, it’s always positive, there seems a rush to highlight his good work. With Pogba there’s no rush to highlight positives, in fact there’s more of a rush to pick out an underhit pass.

The pass for the goal as an example being described as ‘a good ball’....it was more than a good ball and it completely created the goal.

 

[thepolice123]

Yep. This is so clearly the primary difference. He likes to play football at his own pace, dwell on the ball, take plenty of touches. But the Premier League doesn't allow it. International level he gets that bit of extra time and the talent shows.

He's not the first gifted player to be like this and won't be the last. I thought the same of Veron. Scholes could do everything he could but did it two seconds faster. At times I felt the same of Nani.

If that's the case why would Scholes struggle at International Football?

Of course the next thing you will say is England were shite during his time and he was constantly played out of position.

Exactly the same be said for Pogba with us.

 

[Rolaholic]

It worked nicely for the maybe 15-20 games that Matic still had petrol left in his tank but otherwise we've never had a starting caliber DM over the last 5 years

 

[Marwood]

If that's the case why would Scholes struggle at International Football?

Of course the next thing you will say is England were shite during his time and he was constantly played out of position.

Exactly the same be said for Pogba with us.

Did Scholes struggle at international football? He wasn't as good as he was at club level but he did ok. Got 13 goals in his first 35. Pretty good.

Think he's spoken himself about the reasons he didn't live up to expectations for his last 30 caps. Said he didn't enjoy it, didn't want to be away from his family etc.

I don't think any of that has any bearing on my opinion imternational football really suits Pogba because he's one of those players who really likes a bit of extra time.

Do you think international football is as quick as the prem league?

 

[jesperjaap]

Bruno is not immune, but we've been trying to shoehorn Pogba in since he came back. I think its been at a detriment to the team balance - playing Pogba on the left and Rashford on the right for example, this is not Pogba’s fault it's the managers.

They are speaking about pogba right now on BBC and saying he's happy playing for France.. no your wrong BBC pretty lady, its because he'd have two players closing him down in the EPL on first touch.

But he is a very good player, just isn't the very good player we need IMO..

I agree and for us hs best position is probably on the left or number 10 and whether or not he is maybe better than Rashford and Fernandes in there positions, he certainl isnt £400k a week better surely in anybodies book?

 

[Posh Red]

Nah just not true. On the pass that created the goal, his exact words.

"It's a good ball, it really is a good ball."

But aside from your point being factually incorrect, why would McCoist have a sub conscious bias towards him? If you're going to throw that around I think you have to back it up a bit. Otherwise it's not really fair is it.

You can't tell me he doesn't like extroverted footballers who change their hair. He loves Gazza.

Probably more likely that the narrative has been repeated so often by other people that a lot of people just take it as fact now. I would guess that many of these pundits don’t watch Pogba at United all that often, but see our lack of success, Pogba’s price tag etc along with a fair bit of negative press about him and form a view that way. I’d say this is quite a common thing in football generally, with people forming opinions of players without actually watching them play that often.

 

[In Rainbows]

Exactly

There is no building around anyone. Getting someone who compliments Pogba, isn't building around Pogba. Literally every team buys players that compliment the team. No player is being built around. If for example, United had Kante, would we be building around Kante by having Pogba? No. Same thing the other way around. If we get a CB, do we want someone as slow as Maguire? Would that count as building the team around Maguire? No. Would buying a LB with a left foot count as building around the left winger? No.

You need to stop thinking like that.

 

[thepolice123]

Did Scholes struggle at international football? He wasn't as good as he was at club level but he did ok. Got 13 goals in his first 35. Pretty good.

Think he's spoken himself about the reasons he didn't live up to expectations for his last 30 caps. Said he didn't enjoy it, didn't want to be away from his family etc.

I don't think any of that has any bearing on my opinion imternational football really suits Pogba because he's one of those players who really likes a bit of extra time.

Do you think international football is as quick as the prem league?

Majority of his goals came when he broke through but he largely ranged from poor to decent in every major tournaments.

But my point wasn't to argue against the notion that English Football is quicker or harder to play. My point is that it can easily twisted to suit one's bias. Fact of the matter is the English "physicality" is a pretty overused and useless argument, there could be a whole variety of reasons. Plenty of flair players have did well in the league but failed with their NT. Similarly you have someone like Messi who dominates the "lax defending" in La Liga but couldn't replicate that form for his NT.

And Pogba has had good/decent-ish seasons for us, including the current one. Its pretty clear the main issue with him when playing for us is his own consistency and us finding the right position for him. His ability to play in the league was never in question. Supposedly if you are right and that he struggles with the pace of the PL, he would have been shown the door from way earlier.

 

[Green_Red]

If we manage to let Pogba go for free twice, we will be the biggest clowns in football as far as transfers go.

In fairness we're probably owning that title already during the Woodward era.

 

[Marwood]

Majority of his goals came when he broke through but he largely ranged from poor to decent in every major tournaments.

But my point wasn't to argue against the notion that English Football is quicker or harder to play. My point is that it can easily twisted to suit one's bias. Fact of the matter is the English "physicality" is a pretty overused and useless argument, there could be a whole variety of reasons. Plenty of flair players have did well in the league but failed with their NT. Similarly you have someone like Messi who dominates the "lax defending" in La Liga but couldn't replicate that form for his NT.

And Pogba has had good/decent-ish seasons for us, including the current one. Its pretty clear the main issue with him when playing for us is his own consistency and us finding the right position for him. His ability to play in the league was never in question. Supposedly if you are right and that he struggles with the pace of the PL, he would have been shown the door from way earlier.

Think of some of the players who've been here for years. Being at United stopped being a marker of excellence a long time ago.

But my point isn't that Pogba can't cope with the Premier League. He can. It's just that he likes to play at his pace. So when he gets that extra time at international level, it suits him. You can get a better version of him.

Really there's no bias involved on my part. I know that's the go to argument when there's anything but praise of Pogba but I like the guy. Think he's really talented.

Me thinking Pogba plays a second too slow to really show his best here is based purely on watching him for five years.

 

[Ali Dia]

It’s great to see him playing well. I think it also possibly gives us a better chance to sell him for something if he won’t sign. I still don’t get the constant unlock Pogba talk though. We’ve unlocked him when he was the most advanced of the 3. Put any one DM next to him and they will get swamped. That one player doesn’t really exist who can defend against a 3/4 man counter. If you’re playing in a 2 and your partner is liable to switch off it’s always going to end up hurting you.

Pogba should be used as Bruno rotation and we should switch to 433 or put him on the left with 2 mopping up behind him in midfield. I don’t know if he’s worth totally crazy money seeing as we already have Bruno and Rashford but he certainly isn’t worth it as one of two box to box no matter who is beside him.

 

[RUCK4444]

It worked nicely for the maybe 15-20 games that Matic still had petrol left in his tank but otherwise we've never had a starting caliber DM over the last 5 years

This. 100 times this.

It’s so frustrating because we fecking need a top DM regardless if Pogba stays or goes!

I’ve been banging this drum as long as and definitely as loudly as any fecker here. It’s the number one biggest United-related frustration to me.

 

[Blood Mage]

As always, he's outstanding nearly every game for France but will go back to looking uninterested as soon as he puts a United shirt back on. It's not just that our DM options and forward movement are lousy, he just isn't motivated at United for whatever reason.

 

[thepolice123]

Think of some of the players who've been here for years. Being at United stopped being a marker of excellence a long time ago.

But my point isn't that Pogba can't cope with the Premier League. He can. It's just that he likes to play at his pace. So when he gets that extra time at international level, it suits him. You can get a better version of him.

Really there's no bias involved on my part. I know that's the go to argument when there's anything but praise of Pogba but I like the guy. Think he's really talented.

Me thinking Pogba plays a second too slow to really show his best here is based purely on watching him for five years.

If that's the case Pogba would just be an average player because that is really what separates the top players from the rest. It sounds like you just have a stylistic preference.

You compared him to Nani and Veron. Nani delivered half a season of top level football to bring us the title. I don't think speed of thought and execution was the problem for him. Similarly for Veron who is the go-to example for the classic "Exquisite South American player who failed in the PL because it is too fast and physical". Plenty of our ex-legends have came out and highlighted what exactly went wrong. He struggled here for different reasons entirely.

 

[bosnian_red]

It worked nicely for the maybe 15-20 games that Matic still had petrol left in his tank but otherwise we've never had a starting caliber DM over the last 5 years

Another thing - 99% of United fans would shoot themselves (or protest) if they played the same set up as France. It's Mourinho ball. You can't use that set up for club football nor should we nor should we aspire to. It's awful. Pogba had a great game but he's had great games for United too - plenty of them. Problem like you say is so much of our team is unbalanced, whether it's too much focus on the left wing or nothing provided from the deeper midfield positions, or no defensive mid to balance things. We don't have the right team set up to get Pogba in a midfield double pivot to work (from our wingers being very attacking players who offer little defensively, to our other midfielders).

The way we used Pogba last season was very good. Unfortunately, it sacrifices using Rashford in his best position and puts too much pressure on us having a top player in probably our weakest position, the right wing. It's just a situation that there is no right answer to due to the way we've built up our team, it's not with Pogba in mind and righly so as he's always wanted out. This is Bruno's team. And rashfords. And Greenwoods future. Signing Sancho compliments that, but also pretty much kills any relevance to Pogba staying long term (if we want any balance), so I think there's a chance Pogba leaves this summer.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

I initially thought this was more on the coaches, but then again Bruno played exactly like this is the Portugal match today.

The strange thing is when he first came he was dictating and connecting a lot more than he does now, but then he became very focused on making runs to directly score or assist. I much prefer his previous, more controlled play.

Agreed, it’s been frustrating how he’s turned into more of a player that’s strictly looking for end product, because often times it’s at the detriment of the flow of the team and connecting play. But then everyone screams at you about his G/A numbers if you ever criticize him for it

 

[criticalanalysis]

Don't think that was even a great performance. It was a typical good performance where he played to his abilities and showed why he is the most talented player on the pitch.

Tactically, there isn't much difference from how Ole uses him. He is covered by two box-to-box midfielders and generally positions himself at the area of the midfield where he is nearer to the flanks. The only difference is France plays with two wing forwards so they don't need him to stretch the play as much. Their fullbacks also provide a lot of movement and support.

Agree with all except the bolded. Except for a small portion of games (in comparison), I'm sure the majority of his games as a midfielder is in a 'two' behind your Lingards/Matas/Fellanis/Peireras/Brunos etc.

 

[TheLord]

I really don’t see how he’s “better” for France. He has plenty of moments of pure brilliance in a United shirt and has plenty of donkey moments in a French shirt. ….

The only problem is that he has far too many brilliant moments with the French side compared with when plying for us, and far too many donkey moments when playing for United compared with his performances in the national side.

Of course, the French team is superior to ours (if one can make such comparisons), but I am convinced he is LESS motivated when playing for United. It may be relatively easy to fix the midfield, but far too difficult to fix the mind.