Yeah, agree with all of that. Of course, having Fellaini and Carrick more or less unavailable all season has definitely made it more difficult to find that interim solution.
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Yeah, agree with all of that. Of course, having Fellaini and Carrick more or less unavailable all season has definitely made it more difficult to find that interim solution.
Well there is a reason, his defensive awareness and anticipation skills are poor. He is 24 and yet his defensive awareness and ability to track runs is still generally shocking.
So you can say, well why can't he just put the effort in and get good at it, but it is not as simple as that. You need some sort of natural ability, and to have developed that instinct by now. Its like saying no reason why Iniesta can't be solid defensively.. some players no matter how hard they try, just won't get it.
I refuse to believe Pogba has been half-assing his way as a CM for almost two seasons, I am sure he's been trying whenever he plays there and yet the progress he's made in that respect has been pitiful. Which means it is becoming a wasted exercise in attempted development trying to learn that role. He'd be better off perfecting the art of becoming a goalscoring attacking mid, ala Yaya Toure but with some playmaking thrown in.
The Stoke performance wasn't bad by any means. We dominated that game completely and should have won it easily.
The Super Cup final is a different story, I agree. Real Madrid was/is on a different level to us, though. Drawing conclusions just from that game, early in the season, seems a bit unfair to me.
can see both sides of the story
when you buy a player you expect him to follow instructions and do whatever the manager does for the sake of the team. Pogba's lack of discipline in that game against Spurs was awful and Matic was totally overrun - Pogba needed to play like he did at home to Chelsea last year at Old Trafford
on the other hand you are buying a player with great capability in the opposing half - why stifle him by restricting him?
i think the issue is about balance though and Matic comes into it. Matic has faded a lot since Christmas and that game against Everton, where we played Pogba, Matic and Herrera is the best game we played lately in terms of control and creativity - if we play with the three it provides the security so Pogba can influence the game
when you buy a player you expect him to follow instructions and do whatever the manager does for the sake of the team. Pogba's lack of discipline in that game against Spurs was awful and Matic was totally overrun - Pogba needed to play like he did at home to Chelsea last year at Old Trafford
on the other hand you are buying a player with great capability in the opposing half - why stifle him by restricting him?
i think the issue is about balance though and Matic comes into it. Matic has faded a lot since Christmas and that game against Everton, where we played Pogba, Matic and Herrera is the best game we played lately in terms of control and creativity - if we play with the three it provides the security so Pogba can influence the game
It was overall an average performance. Herrera kept moving in the spaces Matic moved in disturbing the play while Pogba was moving aimlessly forward without affecting the game. Sure we should have won that game if not for the defense, but it wasn't a good performance from that midfield trio at all imo. Considering we have played very well the games before it with Matic and Pogba only, then continued to play very well after it with Matic and Fellaini, it sure throws some questions about playing this trio together.
I agree that against big teams, a midfield 3 is a must, but throughout the whole season against all midtable clubs we looked very well in 4-2-3-1. The game against Newcastle at home we played with exactly the same formation as the away game, with Rashford instead of Sanchez and Lindelof instead of Jones, and we played great football in second half, winning 4-1 with Pogba assisting and scoring. Compare that to the away game and you'll think something went wrong the last game. Something is off regarding Pogba and it's not just formation.
Thing with potential is, that isn't some concept where you just look at a players isolated attributes like:
- big
- strong
- tall
- fast
- can slide tackle
- can get back
- can sometimes control play
- good range of passing
In theory, I get why Jose and others have experimented in Pogba being a CM. On paper, he seems like the perfect B2B player because his tackling isn't bad etc etc (all that I described above) but it is also very apparent to the naked eye, that he doesn't naturally move into the positions I'd expect a top class CM to take on the pitch, he doesn't have the right awareness of the various situations one encounters in midfield and how to deal with them.. he's like a kid who can randomly pick out 5 good points in an essay but with zero ability to weave an effective narrative and produce a comprehensive answer.
When he's doing anything remotely defensive, or is in his own half.. it looks laboured, it doesn't flow, it doesn't look natural compared to say a Modric, or a Scholes. Some people can easily move to different positions and can pick it up quickly, and it seems like they never missed a beat. But lets not forget the Rooney as a CM experiment, on paper.. seemed like no reason why he couldn't, but something was amiss.. his understanding of the midfield role, just wasn't as good as he thought it was and it looked awkward, no matter how long he would have tried trying to learn it.
For me, you could try for 10 years putting Pogba as a CM, and give him the best coaches in the world (for all his faults recently, is there anyone better on the planet to learn from on how to handle the defensive aspect of being a midfielder) and he still wouldn't get it. It is beyond him. Doesn't make him a shit footballer, its just human nature.. some things are just not for you. I've known for years, I am shit at heading the ball.. yet I've got a great leap, I am great at reading the game and I've practised it year after year, and yes I've improved.. but am I ever going to be Vidic? no. There is a limit to how much I can improve at it, because maybe I missed the opportunity to perfect it as a young kid, or I just don't have the natural fearlessness you need to put your head where it hurts, but it still shows me up some times. On paper though, a coach would think WTF.. if you leap that well, just go for it.. but it is just a mental thing, which I will never get over.
Same with Pogba. I don't see him ever turning into a world class CM.. but I can see him with the right coaching turn into a world class AM. His awareness in attacking situations, he has a great strike potentially from distance, he can run past anyone.. he's not perfect, but there are tools there which he has a better grasp of using in a coherent manner. We need to focus on that and see if we can refine that aspect of his game, and because he will be more interested in that naturally.. he's likely to go above and beyond to try and get better at that.
I didn't quote to discuss anyone's stance. Just to give a feel for how well he'd played in specific games.
Because believe it or not, we just want what is best for the club rather than selling a £89m purchase with no guarantee we will get in better players as a replacement.
If we think the side is better off with Pogba playing in a more unrestricted role, and it might make our performances more easier to bear and more fun to watch, then yes.. even though I am disgusted with Pogba showing a lack of effort, if it means him rebelling in one or two games = long term better football from the club I love, then so be it.
If selling him as to guarantee 100% better football from United, I'd be on board with that too. All that matters is Manchester United. Not Mourinho and not Pogba.
Ah ok. You’re right anyhow.
Football is more complicated than just player attributes on paper, why doesn't the manager know this?
Einstein knows
Einstein knows
I thought I'd see what Tuz are saying about Pogba
After Spurs game
After Newcastle
Pogba Regrets move
Its all here http://www.juventuz.com/threads/34761-Paul-Pogba/page2292
After Newcastle
Pogba Regrets move
Its all here http://www.juventuz.com/threads/34761-Paul-Pogba/page2292
Interesting, it would appear that Juve fans had many of the same issues with him that we do, even when played in his supposedly ideal role.
Exactly what I mean yeah. Of course it's just (possibly stupid) speculation on my part. Pogba should and will hopefully Sanchez as a player who can help him become better than he is. Great players help each other become better.
On Football Weekly Johnathan Wilson and Phillipe Auclair both think the leak about Pogba and Mourinho came from someone in Mourinho's camp.
Great timing there...Real Madrid are a bigger shambles than United this season!
Real are a 4-3-3 team, Napoli are a 4-3-3 team, Liverpool are a 4-3-3 team who are not sacrificing anything attacking wise by playing with another midfielder. And Herrera is much better than any of Liverpool's midfielders.
Interesting...so Mourinho is the problem ?
They have better attacking coaching and systems that ensure their players get enough chances on goal. We have created nearly 75 less chances than City, Spurs, Liverpool and Chelsea in the league. Under Jose stewardship there would be a serious concern that we will not score enough goals. He needs pure efficiency as he isn't gung ho and we don't look cohesive in attack.
With that attitude coupled to his recent performances I might regret him not choosing Madrid either
I just copied as many 'constructive' posts as I could since it kicked off, and cut out all the dross and knife twisting. Link at the bottom of the spoiler.
They certainly rated him though and they watched him grow in their midfield.
Funny. In one of these posts from Juve forum, someone mentioned he can't imagine Spurs dominating Juve like they did to Man United, guess what, they got dominated by Spurs, and in Torino, few days after that.
So you selected the posts least critical of Pogba. And ignored all the posts that didn’t fit your agenda. Nice work. That really helps clear things up.
Great. if Jose is to ever leave, it wouldn't and shouldn't ever be by player power.
Even if they did that; there are quite a few posts that don't paint a good picture of him. Some are saying that he regressed as a player in his final year and became some sort of quasi-attacker that let's the game go by and shows up in flashes. Apparently he was less involved in the attack but contributing more to the team when he first came.
I thought it was fairly balanced, but I put the link in there. Knock yourself out, Pogue
Yeah, considering it’s a biased selection it’s not exactly encouraging. And that’s when he had the luxury of players like Pirlo and Vidal to share the load. Just shows how distorted people’s opinions are of his alleged brilliance in a midfield three, based on fading memories and youtube highlight reels.
As I keep pointing out, though, all of his stats have improved every year throughout his career. He’s a better and more effective player now than he was at Juve and still a few years away from his peak. For all his flaws he could still become a fantastic, well rounded midfielder. He needs to buck up his ideas, stop sulking and work on the weakest elements of his game. If he keeps sulking like he did against Newcastle he’ll never be the Balon D’Or winner he thinks he can become.
Okay Pogue...
Like I said, the link from the Spurs match is in there for anyone who wants to go through the thread.
Look at Real Madrid when they played PSG. The players worked their socks off in both ends of the pitch and even Ronaldo was putting pressure on their defenders when off the ball and making a lot of runs to stretch the game or go in behind.
Even if Pogba hypothetically goes to Real Madrid or Barcelona or whoever, he will still need to put in the work-rate and the running off the ball, getting stuck in to win it back and provide passing opportunities with more movement.
I agree, Pogba is not as effective going forward but he's become a better midfielder since his Juventus days. He has controlled many games against weaker opposition and you can see Pirlo's influence in his play. He has also improved his defensive awareness which is always important for a midfielder.
I think the best of Pogba is still to come; he has the talent and intelligence.
Interesting that Tuz call Pogba a traitor for joining us after how he left initially.
For any criticisms people are throwing at Pogba, he's still one of our top 3 players and the goal should be to get the best out of your best players.
Luckily, Jose seems to be after a midfielder or two this summer and if he gets them right, it should help us.
And for people saying it's wrong to buy players to get the best out of already expensive players, you're talking shite imo. Every great player ever has had team mates to help them in one way or the other. This is a team sport. Ronaldo was so good, Rooney sacrificed himself. David Villa sacrificed himself for Messi.
Gerrard and Lampard are good comparisons for Pogba in my opinion. And both of those had midfields built solely to get the best out of them. Makelele and Essien for Lampard; Alonso and Mascherano for Gerrard.
Maybe we have our Makelele/Mascherano already. This summer is about getting the playmaker.
For any criticisms people are throwing at Pogba, he's still one of our top 3 players and the goal should be to get the best out of your best players.
Luckily, Jose seems to be after a midfielder or two this summer and if he gets them right, it should help us.
And for people saying it's wrong to buy players to get the best out of already expensive players, you're talking shite imo. Every great player ever has had team mates to help them in one way or the other. This is a team sport. Ronaldo was so good, Rooney sacrificed himself. David Villa sacrificed himself for Messi.
Gerrard and Lampard are good comparisons for Pogba in my opinion. And both of those had midfields built solely to get the best out of them. Makelele and Essien for Lampard; Alonso and Mascherano for Gerrard.
Maybe we have our Makelele/Mascherano already. This summer is about getting the playmaker.
Imagine if Pirlo or Schweinsteiger had downed tools when moved from their more glamorous, egocentric positions into deeper midfield roles? Football would have lost two of its greatest players of the modern era, and neither player would have reached the levels they did in terms of individual prestige. They didn’t sulk; they simply took it upon themselves to dictate games, taking advantage of the broader spectrum of passing possibilities offered by a deeper default position. Neither were anywhere near as equipped for the role as Pogba is either.
Pogba clearly sees an orthodox, professional midfield role as below him and his ‘brand’ - he thinks he’s Kobe Bryant, the MVP. His reputation is built upon dabbing and dominating Balkan journeymen in Serie A for the team that has monopolised Calcio in this decade, but he’s bigger than neither United nor Mourinho - if he wants to substantiate the style, he should work hard for both.
Pogba clearly sees an orthodox, professional midfield role as below him and his ‘brand’ - he thinks he’s Kobe Bryant, the MVP. His reputation is built upon dabbing and dominating Balkan journeymen in Serie A for the team that has monopolised Calcio in this decade, but he’s bigger than neither United nor Mourinho - if he wants to substantiate the style, he should work hard for both.
@AP88 Pirlo is literally the worst name to bring up in this discussion. Since people are criticizing Pogba for only being great in one midfield or needing world class talent around him. But, Pirlo needed runners around him to be effective and could only play in the "QB" role.
Since I've been watching Manchester United, I have seen these players play in a midfield two, Butt, Scholes, Carrick, Fletcher, Giggs(not even a CM), O'Shea(not a CM), Fortune(not a CM) Kleberson, Miller(RIP), P.Neville and many more I can't remember but somehow, a pure talented midfielder can't play in midfield two and yet some fans excuse him.
There was no Pirlo or Vidal in Pogba's last season at Juventus. Still, he won the Serie A!
Since I've been watching Manchester United, I have seen these players play in a midfield two, Butt, Scholes, Carrick, Fletcher, Giggs(not even a CM), O'Shea(not a CM), Fortune(not a CM) Kleberson, Miller(RIP), P.Neville and many more I can't remember but somehow, a pure talented midfielder can't play in midfield two and yet some fans excuse him.
But, we also had guys like Veron, Hargreaves and Anderson we never got the best out of playing in a two man midfield.
Lol. What?
Did you notice that two of those three came United after recovering from a very bad injury that should have discourage the transfer?
One thing that worries about Pogba's position going forward is Jose's ego. He's already argued back with the media about Pogba being able to play in a two man midfield. If he relents and starts Pogba in a 3 man midfield and it works, then it shows that he was wrong and everyone else was right all along.
Maybe I'm reading into it too much, but I'm wondering if Jose's stubbornness or wanting to come out on top of this debate might lead to him cutting off his nose to spite his face so to speak.
Maybe I'm reading into it too much, but I'm wondering if Jose's stubbornness or wanting to come out on top of this debate might lead to him cutting off his nose to spite his face so to speak.
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