[Raees]

Re Fabregas. I’m talking about the last time Chelsea won the league. With the same midfield partner as Pogba. Under the same manager. Playing the same system. Why can’t Pogba do the same?

Because his footballing brain for the CM position is far ahead any normal CM let alone a Pogba.

His intuition for that role was that great, he was trusted to play there as a 16yr old for Arsenal in their prime, near the Invincible era. This was a guy capable of emulating Paul Scholes.

Even a washed up version of him, made a far superior CM than Pogba right now.

Aside from his brain, he naturally picked up great pockets of space in front of the defence, he naturally knew how to position himself off the ball, again another player who was a pass-meister and therefore he could stay deep but spray the ball around and control the game, the dribbling aspect of his game was minimal and thus less likely to be caught out of position.

If you compare Iniesta/Coutinho to Scholes/Xavi.. you'll notice that the first pair, dribble alot with the ball, they probe at defences and play the killer pass, and they roam around, ball-carrying as well as passing. Whilst the latter duo and say Pirlo, even though all three are very nimble on the ball and technically superb, they don't ball-carry. They tend to stand still and pass the ball around, acting as a hub and therefore if there is the occasional loss in possession, they're still plugging a gap and not leaving a gaping hole. If you played Iniesta as a CM, it would be a problem in the long term because he'll be out of position as he likes to dribble alot and go forwards with the ball.

Someone like Modric is a rare blend of the two, but again his bursts tend to be in the CM area and not as much down the flanks or in the final third, and he's so nippy and dynamic, he gets back again into a good position.

Pogba falls into the Iniesta/Coutinho school of heavily relying on his dribbling and he can't just sit still and spray the ball, it is counter-intuitive to his natural way of playing the game and that makes him a bad fit for a CM. Just like in reverse, it made Fabregas a bad fit for a Barcelona attacking mid, because his dribbling was very average but passing is his game and therefore his best years in his career have tended to be when he's operating as a CM.

 

[roonster09]

Yet his stats - using every available metric - have improved since he left Juventus and started playing for United. Go figure.

Re the rest of your post, Newcastle’s formation and approach against us was exactly the same as ours against (for example) Spurs. So this is a very poor excuse for Pogba’s recent crap performances.

Why do you think Pogba is incapable of playing in a midfield 2?

Pogba has improved as a player and I argued same few weeks back. Are we using him in the best possible way? No.

 

[SammyUnited_83]

Good for him and now he's playing for Nice in the prime of his career. Are you telling me Pogba will one day be playing for Crystal Palace at the age of 28 - if he was to leave here after failing to gel with Jose?

You said he had failed everywhere, yet he won the Premier League, scoring goals and setting up the winner.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Why do you think Pogba is incapable of playing in a midfield 2?

Pogba has improved as a player and I argued same few weeks back. Are we using him in the best possible way? No.

I don’t!

It’s a lame excuse trotted out every time he has a bad game. I think he’s more than capable of playing in a two and has done it many times since he joined the club. I also don’t think switching to a midfield three will cause a sudden dramatic and sustained improvement in his form.

He’s proven himself more than capable of playing well in either formation. Unfortunately, he’s also proven himself capable of an occasional absolute shit show. Again, in both formations.

 

[kouroux]

I don’t!

It’s a lame excuse trotted out every time he has a bad game. I think he’s more than capable of playing in a two and has done it many times since he joined the club. I also don’t think switching to a midfield three will cause a sudden dramatic and sustained improvement in his form.

His first ever game for Man Utd (in which he was awesome) was in a midfield 2 no ? It was so promising. I agree with you, he most definitely can play in a 2 man midfield in most games (in big games he gets found out) and switching to 3 on a permanent basis isn't a guarantee of an upturn in his game.
Everything depends on him and his mood.

 

[roonster09]

I don’t!

It’s a lame excuse trotted out every time he has a bad game. I think he’s more than capable of playing in a two and has done it many times since he joined the club. I also don’t think switching to a midfield three will cause a sudden dramatic and sustained improvement in his form.

Well he can, but we wont be seeing the best of Pogba playing there. Players like Dembele are not creators, they are good ball carries and then in final third they don't do anything, complete opposite of Pogba who is capable of passes that Dembele can only dream of.

Pogba is attacking player, not attacking mid but attack oriented/minded player. Playing him in restricted role means we have signed a player who was amazing in a midfield 3 and using him maybe half of his talents.

 

[Raees]

You said he had failed everywhere, yet he won the Premier League, scoring goals and setting up the winner.

If he was a success, he'd still be there. Comparing his mentality to Pogba is laughable.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I don’t!

It’s a lame excuse trotted out every time he has a bad game. I think he’s more than capable of playing in a two and has done it many times since he joined the club. I also don’t think switching to a midfield three will cause a sudden dramatic and sustained improvement in his form.

He’s proven himself more than capable of playing well in either formation. Unfortunately, he’s also proven himself capable of an occasional absolute shit show. Again, in both formations.

Agreed, he played many good games last year in a 2, nobody mentioned this "problem", it's just suddenly taken note because a few people have said it in main stream media.

He hadn't lost in how many games he had started, most of those were in a 2 man midfield.

It's more the fact that Pogba himself has got lazy and stopped tracking back as well as he should, that's not the systems fault, it's his. Yes he's a great player but he's playing a vital position, and Jose has shown if he wants to be a diva he will leave him out.

 

[Cassidy]

Agreed, he played many good games last year in a 2, nobody mentioned this "problem", it's just suddenly taken note because a few people have said it in main stream media.

He hadn't lost in how many games he had started, most of those were in a 2 man midfield.

It's more the fact that Pogba himself has got lazy and stopped tracking back as well as he should, that's not the systems fault, it's his. Yes he's a great player but he's playing a vital position, and Jose has shown if he wants to be a diva he will leave him out.

It was mentioned quite a lot, still I also think he can be good in a 2.

 

[Ban]

Jamie Redknapp has warned Jose he could lose the dressing room over the treatment of Pogba, I hope he's listening.

 

[ZenMaster Coltrane]

I don’t!

It’s a lame excuse trotted out every time he has a bad game. I think he’s more than capable of playing in a two and has done it many times since he joined the club. I also don’t think switching to a midfield three will cause a sudden dramatic and sustained improvement in his form.

People see what they want to see. There's a baseline of facts that some people just refuse to acknowledge. Pogba's frame, power and speed is never going translate well into some hyper work rate. This should be obvious to everyone. He's an explosive player who will appear to float at certain times.

It's amazing to me that people side with the manager when Mourinho has a well documented track record of misusing a plethora of attacking talents. Pogba in a 2 (under Mourinho) with a squad player like JL ahead of him is just enormously sub-optimal. Of course, he's capable b/c he's a good player. But you don't get anywhere near his ceiling when he's asked to keep close to a static Matic. It's the most inefficient use of him as a MF. And yes, it's more than just the formation. The tempo and attacking structure are not anywhere near the levels they need to be a serious consistent threat across all competitions.

 

[roonster09]

Jamie Redknapp has warned Jose he could lose the dressing room over the treatment of Pogba, I hope he's listening.

He is sitting in a dark room with his Voodoo doll for sure.

 

[Adam-Utd]

It was mentioned quite a lot, still I also think he can be good in a 2.

Nowhere near to this level though, it's been blown out of proportion.

 

[Neuron]

Pogba just hasn't been good lately, but the buck has to come down with the manager in this case.

It's like this: if your company isn't performing well, it's your fault. A specific employee may be doing badly, and doing your best to try to improve their performance is great, and it's exactly what you should do, but ultimately we're not worried about a specific individual here. It's about the company. Sure it's made up of individuals, but you cannot expect them to perform at their best if they are not bought into the vision and the team effort of the unit. As the leader, that's your job.

Look at Elon's companies, for example. Tesla and SpaceX get enormous buzz resulting in some of the best talent available to them, and yet they famously demand 110% of all their employees in terms of work ethic, pay (although still very well) not exceptionally, and consistently achieve great results. And it's clear why that is - the employees are just bought in. They have an awkwardly charismatic leader who just seems like a great guy and leads by example. And most importantly, they're bought into the vision, what the companies are trying to do, and the way in which they go about doing that.

Now compare that with United. We have a manager who is not known for being the most genuine person around, which is fine cause it's football and no one is 100% popular in football, but that's not the most important thing. It's his vision, aim, strategy, philosophy, etc. That's the problem!

Players look across the road and see City flying this season by playing expansive, attractive and very attacking football. And that's exactly why you want to be a player. You want to be playing like that. It's just obvious.

Going back to Pogba, of course he doesn't think to himself, well De Bruyne is just better than me. None of these players think that, they're all at the top of their field capable of great football and ability. I doubt Mata thinks he's worse than his friend David Silva, or Alexis think he's worse than Aguero, Martial worse than Sane, Rashford worse than Sterling, etc.

So instead they must be thinking (and OF COURSE they are thinking this) - our neighbours and main rivals are just being set up better than us. They have a better vision of how they want to play, and even though every football philosophy has its limitations, they are executing it with complete belief and great success.

I think that is the elephant in the room when talking about any of our players' performances on a macro scale (obviously I'm not talking about a single match performance, but the bigger picture). Human psychology just plays too big a role and when, in a competitive sport, your neighbours are doing it more successfully, more consistently, and in a more aesthetically pleasing way, you are bound to wonder, well what do they have that we don't. The answer: a clear idea of how they want to play, backed by a manager and coaches who are trying to make that way of playing get results and be stylish at the same time.

...And some of you wonder why De Bruyne runs around like a maniac and Pogba limps around looking uninterested. If I worked for SpaceX I think I'd dump my girlfriend, never sleep again, and work my ass off.

Pogba will be fine. We need a better manager. Maybe not in the summer, or next summer. But hopefully sooner rather than later. I'm happy to wait and be proven wrong.

 

[NinjaFletch]

I can't get hold of stats from the time at Juve, so will use a combination of heat maps from Coutinho/Iniesta compared to how we are utilising Pogba and video evidence from his time at Juventus.

COUTINHO V SAINTS

https://i.imgur.com/3wdKsQx.jpg

INIESTA V ALAVES

INIESTA V REAL MADRID

LINGARD V NEWCASTLE

RAKITIC V MADRID

Now apparently anyone that dares to claim Jesse was not operating as a CM against newcastle needs to be banned. I put it to you that Rakitic passing map, compared to Lingard is so different, the difference is stark as night and day. One is the passing map of an orthodox, proper CM (B2B/controlling CM) and the other is of a free roaming attacking midfielder.

No way was the way Jesse playing in any way comparable to the way Rakitic is playing thus enabling Iniesta to focus on that left flank, like he did against Madrid. To reinforce the way Iniesta played that game.. see video below:



DE BRUYNE V WEST BROM

Now De Bruyne is playing in a 4-1-4-1, which is more similar to how we operated against Newcastle in the second half. The difference is, that City play in a way more attacking system and that allows De Bruyne to play utterly unleashed, knowing he will be covered and the fact they play so high up the pitch means, most of his play is in the opponents half, not picking the ball up deep in his own half and close to his defenders.

Finally, lets have a look at Pogba's Juventus days and where he operated...







POGBA V EVERTON



That was hands down his most dominant performance this season. He's bigger, faster and stronger than the young kid at Juve, he should also be wiser and capable of aiming for that 10-15 goals a season mark.

For me compare his average position to likes of Iniesta, Coutinho.. players he is capable of competing with, and players he's used to competing with as left sided attacking midfielders, and instead we're trying to make him compete with Modric or Rakitic. It isn't going to work.

That's great and all, but it's absolutely irrelevant.

The points are simple:

1. Pogba is playing much higher up the pitch than Matic.
2. Pogba's average position is roughly in line with Lingard.
3. As a result of 1-2 it's difficult to argue that Pogba was playing a particularly deep lying role, and when you look at his average positions over the past few games, it's not like Newcastle was the exception.

You can make bizarre comparisons between Lingard and Rakitic to attempt to prove something else entirely (who said anything about anyone being banned?), but you're not challenging the basic premise that Pogba's recent form can't solely be explained by him being asked to play in a restricted 'deep lying' position because, whether he's following instructions or ignoring them, he hasn't.

 

[Cassidy]

Nowhere near to this level though, it's been blown out of proportion.

I think after we lost to City is was mentioned very heavily, you must have just forgotten, a few other games too. I think it is being blown out of proportion now yes but it was also blown out of proportion last season. They key difference this time is Jose subbing him not the analysis

 

[EuanR]

Pogba was clearly not fully fit on Sunday, he left the warm up early with a member of the medical staff. However, that doesn't excuse aspects of his performance like failing to jump and contest the header that led to Newcastle's goal.

If United want to get back to competing for titles, domestically and in Europe, then Pogba will have an integral part to play in achieving this. Just because he plays better to the left of a three shouldn't mean he should be incapable of performing well in a midfield two. The most confusing tactics Mourinho has deployed recently is moving our most in-form player, Martial, to the right where he looks disinterested to accommodate Sanchez and the insistence on playing Lingard- especially deeper to the right of Matic.

 

[Stacks]

Solid retort and post that misses the point.

Zidane and Ronaldinho needed midfield built around them and Hector Cuper had R9 crying on the bench.

I don’t really get this. Zidane and Ronaldinho was the best players of their generation so obviously you’d build around them to get the most out of them. That doesn’t mean you’d have to do it to get them to shine. They would’ve been bloody fantastic in any team. Btw comparing Pogba to Zidane is just ridiculous. Pogba have a very long way to go before being compared to legends of the game even though of course he’s a talented player for sure. But very unfair on Pogba.

Both Zidane and Ronaldinho were shunted wide left, despite being best as AMC or Number 10's. If that's building a team around you then

 

[SammyUnited_83]

If he was a success, he'd still be there. Comparing his mentality to Pogba is laughable.

I'm not saying he was a success, and I'm not comparing his mentality to Pogba.

You said he has been a failure everywhere he has been, and he hasn't .

 

[SammyUnited_83]

Jamie Redknapp has warned Jose he could lose the dressing room over the treatment of Pogba, I hope he's listening.

Lose the dressing room for subbing one of our best players who has been shite? If so, sums up everything that is wrong with our club.

All this bollocks about him playing in a '2' or a '3', wide left, or wide right, is just that, bollocks. I don't care where his best position is, he needs to play to the best of his ability where he is selected. Instead of sulking.

Rooney (for all his bad points), pretty much played out of 'his' position for the majority of his prime, to accommodate Ronaldo. If you are that good you can adapt.

 

[edgar allan]

Jamie Redknapp has warned Jose he could lose the dressing room over the treatment of Pogba, I hope he's listening.

I am naturally inclined to disagree with everything that redknapp says.

 

[edgar allan]

Pogba just hasn't been good lately, but the buck has to come down with the manager in this case.
Going back to Pogba, of course he doesn't think to himself, well De Bruyne is just better than me.
...And some of you wonder why De Bruyne runs around like a maniac and Pogba limps around looking uninterested. If I worked for SpaceX I think I'd dump my girlfriend, never sleep again, and work my ass off.

Pogba will be fine. We need a better manager. Maybe not in the summer, or next summer. But hopefully sooner rather than later. I'm happy to wait and be proven wrong.

Or it might just be that KDB is a much better player with a significantly greater work ethic , drive and determination. He knows he is good but with out the ego or the need for constant attention.

 

[Player Red]

Both Zidane and Ronaldinho were shunted wide left, despite being best as AMC or Number 10's. If that's building a team around you then

Benitez stuck Gerrard on the right as well. Pogba can't be relied on to dominate a midfield as a 2. Unless he makes dramatic changes to his game.

Tbh Pogba is also suffering from a massive lack of cohesion in our side. No area or player seems overly effective.

 

[Ban]

Lose the dressing room for subbing one of our best players who has been shite? If so, sums up everything that is wrong with our club.

All this bollocks about him playing in a '2' or a '3', wide left, or wide right, is just that, bollocks. I don't care where his best position is, he needs to play to the best of his ability where he is selected. Instead of sulking.

Rooney (for all his bad points), pretty much played out of 'his' position for the majority of his prime, to accommodate Ronaldo. If you are that good you can adapt.

Completely agree. Jamie Redknapp and other brilliant pundits just can't wait for him to lose the dressing room.

 

[Neuron]

Or it might just be that KDB is a much better player with a significantly greater work ethic , drive and determination. He knows he is good but with out the ego or the need for constant attention.

Sure, I don't really deny that to be honest. It was more the point I was trying to make about the team and system around the player often being more important than any individual.

 

[edgar allan]

Sure, I don't really deny that to be honest. It was more the point I was trying to make about the team and system around the player often being more important than any individual.

True, we have problems with systems, players and management.

However 4 wins in a row will make the outlook much brighter.

 

[Manny]

Both Zidane and Ronaldinho were shunted wide left, despite being best as AMC or Number 10's. If that's building a team around you then

Zidane was pushed forward after being made to play CM at Juventus was my point. They realised his talents laid further forward and then he excelled. The point stands, he was accommodated, not forced to persist in a role he struggled to play. He played left to accommodate the Galacticos at Real but was given licence to cut in and always played with defensive cover. And he was in 30s and had the experience to adapt.

Don't know what you are on about with Ronaldinho either. He could play either on the wing and 10 for both club and country. He was given licence to stay further up the pitch, so his talents were accommodated. And he grew up playing both roles.

Anyway my point about four posts back now was about some of our fanbase and their unwillingness to accommodate the WC talents that have been linked with us.

 

[el3mel]

Lose the dressing room for subbing one of our best players who has been shite? If so, sums up everything that is wrong with our club.

All this bollocks about him playing in a '2' or a '3', wide left, or wide right, is just that, bollocks. I don't care where his best position is, he needs to play to the best of his ability where he is selected. Instead of sulking.

Rooney (for all his bad points), pretty much played out of 'his' position for the majority of his prime, to accommodate Ronaldo. If you are that good you can adapt.

Great example.

As I said earlier, if you're shifted out of position, do your best and any limitation in your performance will be blamed on the manager. Sulk around and all the blame will vendor you.

As far as Rooney kept declining he was one of the most professional and unselfish player I have ever seen. He kept getting away from the goal as his carrier goes on and never complained, just did his best, even if his "best" kept declining. Pogba needs that mentality.

Pogba looked like he didn't want to get his socks dirty. I really love him, our best player and all but this attitude was appealing to watch. Needs to look at himself in the mirror and realize that.

 

[Yagami]

No, because Martial had a clear chance even when we went 1-0 down.

I'm not saying we wouldn't create a chance or two. That doesn't equate to deserving a win or us playing well.

 

[Maradona10]

A little bit of me thinks, he wants a new deal, he is two years into his deal, Raiola is agent, Real ready to spend, Alexis earning more than him, maybe its something that is in regards to his contract. With Raiola and how we treated Mkhi and with zlatan almost gone, there will be some rocky road with Pogba's renewal. He cant be tored, he has been injured and also was suspended for 3 games, I understand his position is also affecting this, but with Raiola you can never be sure.

 

[King.of.Red]

Lose the dressing room for subbing one of our best players who has been shite? If so, sums up everything that is wrong with our club.

All this bollocks about him playing in a '2' or a '3', wide left, or wide right, is just that, bollocks. I don't care where his best position is, he needs to play to the best of his ability where he is selected. Instead of sulking.

Rooney (for all his bad points), pretty much played out of 'his' position for the majority of his prime, to accommodate Ronaldo. If you are that good you can adapt.

This. I hate player with attitude like Pogba.

 

[Minimalist]

I agree the whole 'play him in a three' thing is nonsense covering up simply shite performances.

Last season he got bullied by Jordan Henderson at Old Trafford - he has (mental) issues that show up that go beyond formation and his role in the side.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

His first ever game for Man Utd (in which he was awesome) was in a midfield 2 no ? It was so promising. I agree with you, he most definitely can play in a 2 man midfield in most games (in big games he gets found out) and switching to 3 on a permanent basis isn't a guarantee of an upturn in his game.
Everything depends on him and his mood.

There was still an evident issue then watching the games. A lot of people got carried away and were claiming we were amazing but although he put in a stellar performance against was it Southampton, Sunderland or Stoke ? I just recall a red and white kit. Anyway the midfield was so open that there was no midfield he and Fellaini were awful positionally in that 2 man midfield and it wasn’t until October when Carrick returned it started to look decent in a 3.

 

[Jacob]

Just play him in the same role as Juve.

 

[kouroux]

There was still an evident issue then watching the games. A lot of people got carried away and were claiming we were amazing but although he put in a stellar performance against was it Southampton, Sunderland or Stoke ? I just recall a red and white kit. Anyway the midfield was so open that there was no midfield he and Fellaini were awful positionally in that 2 man midfield and it wasn’t until October when Carrick returned it started to look decent in a 3.

I don't disagree mate. Just saying that game showed a peak of what a motivated Pogba could do.

 

[Stacks]

Zidane was pushed forward after being made to play CM at Juventus was my point. They realised his talents laid further forward and then he excelled. The point stands, he was accommodated, not forced to persist in a role he struggled to play. He played left to accommodate the Galacticos at Real but was given licence to cut in and always played with defensive cover. And he was in 30s and had the experience to adapt.

Don't know what you are on about with Ronaldinho either. He could play either on the wing and 10 for both club and country. He was given licence to stay further up the pitch, so his talents were accommodated. And he grew up playing both roles.

Anyway my point about four posts back now was about some of our fanbase and their unwillingness to accommodate the WC talents that have been linked with us.

So Zidane was not accommodated at Real, just given a compatible version of playing LM. Ronaldinho's preferred position is to be a straight up 10, and is himself a classic number 10, wore the 10 shirt and was pushed out wide like David Silva. Yes they can cut in but mostly Ronaldinho received the ball out wide and had to dribble much to cut in. He would be better off receiving the ball in the centre behind a striker but you have to play where is best for the team and perform regardless.

Also Zidane was accommodated, after showing he was the best player in the league and winning foreign player of the year. Juventus played only one holding midfielder in Deschamps and Zidane didn't turn to shite and they still made the CL final, go figure. Pogba has been inconsistent since he has been here, we have also tried multiple combinations (Herrera, Carrick, Matic) to get the best out of him and the result has been the same, 4-3-3 or not. Pogba is not Zidane.

 

[Wayne's World]

Just from watching the game tonight. Isn't Dembele everything we want Pogba to be?

As in his passing, his ability on the ball and without it, his positioning sense etc?

 

[Scarecrow]

Just from watching the game tonight. Isn't Dembele everything we want Pogba to be?

As in his passing, his ability on the ball and without it, his positioning sense etc?

If he plays like this every game, sure. He probably doesn't though.

Pogba himself has had plenty of games where he's been everything we want him to be.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Just from watching the game tonight. Isn't Dembele everything we want Pogba to be?

As in his passing, his ability on the ball and without it, his positioning sense etc?

Pogba’s passing is much better. More creative and more variety and range. If the rest of his game was as good as Dembele has been the last few weeks he’d be an unbelievable player. What’s frustrating is that there’s really no good reason why it isn’t.

 

[mancan92]

If he plays like this every game, sure. He probably doesn't though.

Pogba himself has had plenty of games where he's been everything we want him to be.

In the big games Dembele is pretty much always Spurs's best player along with Eriksen. The problem with Dembele has always been long injuries, but when he is on the pitch he asserts himself much more than Pogba ever does. Look like he completely dominated pogba just a couple weeks ago.