We need to build the team around Pogba, not around Rooney. If Pogba continues to be misused to accommodate Rooney, he won't reach his best.
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It's all about how long it takes mourinho to want to move Pogba. I'm certain he's happy with Rooney at the moment otherwise we'd be seeing him dropped sharpish.
Hopefully he realises Pogba is being wasted sooner rather than later. The fact he said Pogba has to adapt to us and not the other way around is worrying though.
For the run of the mill games I think we'll be fine as we dominate possession and Pogba doesn't get caught out too often. Any big game is going to love having that much space in the centre of the pitch though.
Hopefully he realises Pogba is being wasted sooner rather than later. The fact he said Pogba has to adapt to us and not the other way around is worrying though.
For the run of the mill games I think we'll be fine as we dominate possession and Pogba doesn't get caught out too often. Any big game is going to love having that much space in the centre of the pitch though.
Why the now? The level de Bruyne reached 14/15, Pogba never has. He continued it at City but had some injuries, it should be pretty accepted that De Bruyne is better and more the finished article.
We knew what we were getting, he's barely changed defensively from what we used to see in the youth team and reserves. It's down to Mourinho to make it work.
Ah, to me it just seems such a waste to sign a player of such creative ability and play him in a midfield 2 in a 4231.
Put 2 hard working midfielders next to him and let him open those legs up every chance he gets and you're talking about sheer World Class talent striding the park every time you break.
Playing him so deep in a midfield 2, and with that much defensive responsibility is like playing Robben or Ribery as a wingback.
And I know people say the price tag's irrelevant, but to pay that much and then plonk a player into a 'do a job' role is crazy.
Kind of thing you'd expect from LvG, not Jose. The next 2 PL games are gonna be fascinating, because if Mourinho's got any intention of changing system, we'll surely see it after that City loss.
Put 2 hard working midfielders next to him and let him open those legs up every chance he gets and you're talking about sheer World Class talent striding the park every time you break.
Playing him so deep in a midfield 2, and with that much defensive responsibility is like playing Robben or Ribery as a wingback.
And I know people say the price tag's irrelevant, but to pay that much and then plonk a player into a 'do a job' role is crazy.
Kind of thing you'd expect from LvG, not Jose. The next 2 PL games are gonna be fascinating, because if Mourinho's got any intention of changing system, we'll surely see it after that City loss.
Yeah agree, don't get people saying "oh he cost this much so he should be able play anywhere". What a fecking nonsense.
I'm not surprised though, this is three managers now in a row who have broken our transfer record to bring in a player only to play them in an incorrect position. It's so myopic.
We'll get by fine in most games as we are, but if we really want a proper go at the title, it's all about the Rooney scenario
It has only be a few games but I just hope to God that Mourinho plays him in the right position. We need Rooney to break the record this season and leave gracefully for that to happen.
Fair
Yeah I think the problem was he had forgotten so much nothing was kept in there.
Mourinho is definitely getting something wrong but we are 4 games in, give him a minute to work out what it is, it took him until January in his first season to realise he needed matic and I think we need another cm but at the minute Rooney shouldn't be the one to drop out for me, if Pogba hits form then fair enough.
Not sure if anybody watched carra on mnf but his analysis of pogbas performance was pretty damning to say the least .
Pogbas roaming up field ahead of ibra and his constant roaming up the inside left channel leaving Afro head to look after silva and kdb was nothing short of suicidal .
I can't help wandering though if he was told to do that as no way Maureen would let him roam up field if he was part of a midfield 2 unless miki and lingaard were told to push in and narrow the field up (which failed spectacularly if so) .
Surely we won't go with a midfield 2 in any more big games but we need to get the best out of pogba , and the only way that will happen is dropping Rooney .
Especially in the big games .
Pogbas roaming up field ahead of ibra and his constant roaming up the inside left channel leaving Afro head to look after silva and kdb was nothing short of suicidal .
I can't help wandering though if he was told to do that as no way Maureen would let him roam up field if he was part of a midfield 2 unless miki and lingaard were told to push in and narrow the field up (which failed spectacularly if so) .
Surely we won't go with a midfield 2 in any more big games but we need to get the best out of pogba , and the only way that will happen is dropping Rooney .
Especially in the big games .
Drop Rooney because Pogba is playing shocking? I like the logic in this thread.
He'll be fine. Just don't play him as DM, his offensive talent is limited because of that.
Why are they so scared to highlight Rooney and his mistakes/poor performances etc?
After watching Narcos, is Rooney the Escobar of British football? Untouchable.
After watching Narcos, is Rooney the Escobar of British football? Untouchable.
You build your team around your best players. You don't try to shoehorn them.
What we did against City was no different to playing Scholes as a left midfielder.
What we did against City was no different to playing Scholes as a left midfielder.
Pretty much this.
Pogba has never been afforded the type of freedom De Bruyne was at Wolfsburg in his entire career.
He'll make everyone eat their words soon enough.
Play a 4-3-3 in the big matches, with Blind or Herrera as the anchor in MF. Have Pogba and Fellaini ahead of the anchor. Either move Rooney out to the right wing or drop him altogether.
Agree with Carragher. He basically lost himself and played like he did for Juve, as an advanced player out on the left as part of a 3, when he was supposed to be way more disciplined. He's a brilliant player when used correctly with huge potential, so we should get the best out of him. That means dropping Rooney, which Carragher basically wanted to say but didn't say. Neville was just ridiculous, "he has to play" 
That's true, although he did have a lot of freedom himself when he played with Marchisio and Vidal, but he was younger then. He'll show his class but I share the opinion that de Bruyne is a better player, Pogba has more potential imo.
I still think we need to go to a midfield three and let Pogba do what he wants, build the team around him. It'll never happen when we have to try and squeeze Rooney in as a 10 though.
Jamie Carragher did an excellent analysis of Pogba's performance after the game and again tonight on MNF.
He showed 3 or 4 occasions (in the 1st 20 minutes) when Pogba chased the ball instead of patrolling his designated 'zone'. This is problematic because Mourinho set the team up to adhere to a strict zonal marking system, especially when in defence. On every occasion, Pogba has gone marauding off to the left flank. When we lose the ball, Fellaini is alone and surrounded by 3 - 4 City players and stands no chance.
Both City goals were caused because Pogba's lack of discipline leaves a gaping hole in the centre of our team which De Bryne exploits. Add to that the invisibility of the hapless Lingard and naive Mhkitaryan, its amazing we were were not 0-4 down at half time.
It was a very revealing analysis which went against the narrative being presented in our match and post match analysis thread's. Im hoping that Mourinho explains this to Pogba in a way that he can understand. Because no team has any chance when a key player commits such tactical insubordination.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...United-derby-defeat-says-Jamie-Carragher.html
He showed 3 or 4 occasions (in the 1st 20 minutes) when Pogba chased the ball instead of patrolling his designated 'zone'. This is problematic because Mourinho set the team up to adhere to a strict zonal marking system, especially when in defence. On every occasion, Pogba has gone marauding off to the left flank. When we lose the ball, Fellaini is alone and surrounded by 3 - 4 City players and stands no chance.
Both City goals were caused because Pogba's lack of discipline leaves a gaping hole in the centre of our team which De Bryne exploits. Add to that the invisibility of the hapless Lingard and naive Mhkitaryan, its amazing we were were not 0-4 down at half time.
It was a very revealing analysis which went against the narrative being presented in our match and post match analysis thread's. Im hoping that Mourinho explains this to Pogba in a way that he can understand. Because no team has any chance when a key player commits such tactical insubordination.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...United-derby-defeat-says-Jamie-Carragher.html
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Everything is Rooney's fault. Losing the Derby. Brexit. Everything. Didn't you get the memo?
Drop Rooney because Pogba is ill disciplined in a zonal marking system???? Not sure I see the logic there.
Surely the way to solve Pogba's ill disciplined in a zonal marking system is to insist he become disciplined. That way, we won't be 0-2 down after 20 minutes and maybe our tactical plan will bear some fruit.
To repeat, the problem you outlined has nothing to do with Rooney.
I'm sure he will but right now and for the last two years De Bruyne has been the better player, he will arguably be the best in the league this season if he keeps this form up.
It's not a slight on Pogba by any means, when De Bruyne was 23 he was getting loaned away from Chelsea after all. Nothing to suggest Pogba won't end up a better player than him. He has the talent.
Was very naive of Mourinho to start Pogba in a midfield two against City. From now, I expect to see Pogba either as a 10 in a 4231, or in a midfield three.
This is what he did with Fabregas when he wanted to sure things up, and what he should have done on Saturday.
Big games:
CDM - CDM
Pogba
Games where you'd expect us to dominate:
Pogba - CDM
CAM
This is what he did with Fabregas when he wanted to sure things up, and what he should have done on Saturday.
Big games:
CDM - CDM
Pogba
Games where you'd expect us to dominate:
Pogba - CDM
CAM
IMO in the derby pogba was under instructions to get forward as quickly as possible, so he could win knock downs and flick ons from Ibra. He clearly told the wingers to come inside to help protect the midfield, but it just didn't work at all.
No chance would pogba be bolting forward at every opportunity as soon as we had the ball unless he had clear instructions to do it.
It's easy for the pundits to pick up pogba and say what was he doing, look at him running out of midfield, but that instructions come from the top. Jose realised it wasn't working and switched strategy.
We know this because he kept mentioning the first station passing in his interview, he clearly wanted to dodge the press and use our height to get at their weak defence. Unfortunately they defended well and we never really got the plan working.
No chance would pogba be bolting forward at every opportunity as soon as we had the ball unless he had clear instructions to do it.
It's easy for the pundits to pick up pogba and say what was he doing, look at him running out of midfield, but that instructions come from the top. Jose realised it wasn't working and switched strategy.
We know this because he kept mentioning the first station passing in his interview, he clearly wanted to dodge the press and use our height to get at their weak defence. Unfortunately they defended well and we never really got the plan working.
Agreed, Phil Neville even pointed it out but Carragher basically ignored him.
This a 100%. I woke up at twelve on Saturday morning and saw that we were playing a 2 man midfield and said: "uh-oh, we are in trouble."
Agree with Neville that he has to play further up the pitch but I laughed so hard at his Rooney has to play comment. Not to mention the bit about his flexibility. The man is clueless.
Does anyone actually think that Jose would give him freedom so that he'd up doing that, and so repeatedly? To me it seems much more likely that it was a tactic or part of the gameplan.
Agree with Carragher. He basically lost himself and played like he did for Juve, as an advanced player out on the left as part of a 3, when he was supposed to be way more disciplined. He's a brilliant player when used correctly with huge potential, so we should get the best out of him. That means dropping Rooney, which Carragher basically wanted to say but didn't say. Neville was just ridiculous, "he has to play"
Didn't Pogba get pushed up into that position in the 2nd half and was equally anonymous or am I missing something.
@Sheldon69 @bosnian_red @sammsky1 @Zoo
Genuine question - did Carragher point out that Pogba is being played out of position?
Genuine question - did Carragher point out that Pogba is being played out of position?
Pep said the same, 2nd half Pogba/Fellaini pushed forward for the height
You don't pay 90m for a player and play him were he is a mo. He had to play 10 where he can influence the game. The issue is who plays in midfield and also the on going debate about Rooney.....
This. Mourinho always sets up teams based on the opposition. Was surprised to see the same formation. Accomodating Rooney is hurting the team. If it was any other player like Oscar, he would have been dropped without a hesitation.
Neville pointed it out, but Carragher agreed and said you need to build the team around your most expensive signing and that he need that extra man behind him because he is poor defensively.
After that he said we have better players than Rooney in every position.
Well, he used to sometimes move Oscar to the wide areas in big games, which is where I thought he'd play Rooney.
He more just analyzed how he played, which was fair enough. Irrespective of being played out of position, he has to do better on a personel level then what he did against City. He was slow to the ball and his touch was off plenty of times and thats just the basics for him. Neville was the one that said he probably shouldnt be in that position, and Carragher at the end did say what United should play like which was Herrera holding, and Pogba and Fellaini in front of him (pogba on the left of the 3). Neville basically had Rooney on the right wing in a 433 for his lineup, as "rooney has to play".
Its not even this. Pogba isnt really a 10, and I wouldnt play him in front of 2 defensive mids. Put him next to a central midfielder (can even be Mkhitaryan dropping deeper as a playmaker role in midfield like silva and de bruyne do for city), and in front of a holding mid and thats it. I wouldnt want to give him a completely free role, as he isnt bad defensively, hes just not a holding midfielder so doesnt have the positioning for that. He needs someone holding behind him and to get the best out of him, you have another play maker type next to him so he can be a box to box.
He wasnt a liability from a defensive viewpoint though. City basically dominated the game because of the gaps that were left by pogba in the midfield, and the second half was more even with them resorting to counters because of the change of tactic. He still had a bad game individually, but his role changed.
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