Liam miller wasn't serious, the point is the ridiculous castigation of pogba in this thread.
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Liam miller wasn't serious, the point is the ridiculous castigation of pogba in this thread.
He didn't have a great game and fluffed his lines with the chances at the end.
But what about that skill to hook the ball for the handball penalty!!! If Zlatan had scored it we would be talking about that. Fine margins and all.
Of course home against Bournemouth shouldn't come to such fine margins.
But what about that skill to hook the ball for the handball penalty!!! If Zlatan had scored it we would be talking about that. Fine margins and all.
Of course home against Bournemouth shouldn't come to such fine margins.
you may want to re-read this whole thread for answers then because he is not my business anymore
Then why are you commenting in a Pogba thread?
I find it odd that one minute you're criticising me for deflecting, which evidently wasn't the case, and the next you're doing exactly that yourself.
I haven't made any excuses, I haven't called Pogba a genius and I haven't called you a philistine. I've just made the very straightforward point that the expectations you have set for him aren't realistic and that's the reason you're getting so frustrated about it all. Adjust the expectations to a realistic level, based on real evidence, and things fall into place quite quickly. Unless you just enjoy throwing your toys out of the pram. In that case unrealistic expectations in life are great.
Realistic expectations? We spend 90 million or there abouts on someone who was 'world class' at the start of the season and suddenly we need to be realistic? Van Gaal levels of backtracking.
It's realistic to expect a player of Pogba's supposed quality to score one of his many chances today, and to be a better player in his overall play.
Because I gave the answers you want already and back on this same thread. Now he is almost one season with Utd, improved he has not but his new team is not helping him to shine for sure.
Well then certainly I will have a read. Your first comment didn't imply as such though.
You needed to be realistic when we bought him too. If you'd looked at the big money signings made in this decade - the likes of Bale, Suárez, Neymar - you'd have expected things to go roughly the way have. None of them set the house on fire when they joined and all of them came into better positions than Pogba did with us.
Even just compare him to our next door neighbours' record signing - De Bruyne. He probably settled in better than any of those three but he was still a "big game bottler" in his first season and he still fell apart with the rest of the team when it was crunch time. The following season he took a huge stride forward and was a big part of why Guardiola came in firing on all cylinders, but then he still couldn't do anything to prevent them from falling apart for that significant chunk of the season.
What people were expecting from a world class talent isn't what should've been expected. They just got carried away. They built up the hype in their own minds. It's football. Football's stupid. The hype created by the media is to make it dramatic and entertaining, not to accurately reflect the reality. It's your choice what to do with that. Most people buy into it because sometimes it's fun to be stupid and tribal and all that jazz. Just don't complain about it when it turns out things aren't as you expected.
All of that is completely irrelevant. With the chances he had today he should have scored, it doesn't matter if other players didn't start off on fire. All those players you mentioned have proved themselves and at the minute it's looking like Pogba never will.
Please don't blame the players around Pogba for Pogba being poor, that's on him. I'd drop him to prove a point.
Well one hint is easy for sure, at Juve he was the icing on the cake, at Utd he must bake and sell the cake.
It's not irrelevant to the point you made. You've just moved onto another point because you didn't like the response.
Your expectations were unrealistic to begin with. Directly comparing him to other players in the same scenario who went through the same struggles makes that point in a straightforward way.
That's the only point I'm making. I haven't made any point about today's game.
Your point is excusing his performance by comparing him to other players. I didn't move on I said it's irrelevant because it is. Those players not starting as well (still better than Pogba) holds no bearing on how Pogba does. It's deflecting from the obvious issue which is he's simply not as good as he's made out.
Is it unrealistic to expect him to score even one of the chances he had today. If you're not going to actually answer my question don't bother replying.
I never expected him to play much better than he is playing this season, but he should definitely score and assist more. He has missed far too many great chances during the season that could have won us cost us lot of points. And majority of them were because of shit shooting, and not keeper making great saves. His finishing is just bad, whether that's down to his inconsistent shooting technique or him shitting his pants in crucial moments I don't really care, I just expect him to score more goals.
I'm not sure if it's unrealistic. He's a pretty crap finisher and has a tendency to get over-emotional and try way too hard when the pressure's on, so it's not a massive surprise. We should expect him to miss a lot of chances, really. Fecking annoying, we all agree on that. I think he'll get a lot calmer as he gets older. That seems like a fairly minor point when compared against the much bigger point, though. Perceptions vs. reality and all that. I suppose that's maybe too serious and factual for football talk.
Can we have your other midfielders then? We'll pay good money
they are gone and we switched to 4-2-3-1
however, main point from my juve perspective is that is raiola made him a celebrity too soon and football probably has lost a balloon d'or in the making... he is so young though he still has a couple more big transfers to do... you may recoup much of the sum from PSG pretty easily when patience is gone.Why are you trying so hard to appear intelligent? The reality is we've payed a world record fee for a player that didn't warrant it to begin with, and will continue to frustrate and cause us issues for his time here.
You say what you're saying is too factual for football talk, which is stupid because it's a subjective matter, meaning me or you could be completely wrong when it comes to Pogba. But saying it's not unrealistic for him to finish a simple chance proves my point that perhaps we should have looked elsewhere to begin with.
Call me crazy but I don't think he was anywhere near as bad as some people are going on about. He really does need to work on his finishing but aside from that the people completely writing him off are just far too knee jerk.
I thought he was poor but he'd have to put in many performances like today before I would write him off.
Considering the way we set up today, it was pretty much inconceivable that we were going to see the best out of Paul Pogba. There is absolutely no need for us to constrain Pogba in a midfield two. He's not a regista, he's also not a defensive midfielder, he's not even a prototypical CM. For Pogba to excel, he has to be deployed in a hybrid AM/CM position where he has the freedom to create without the burden of having to dictate the play or to anchor the back of the midfield. Now Pogba did indisputably play poorly today but we are setting him up to play poorly continuously if we continue to play him in a midfield two. He has the capabilities to be an outstanding passer but as of now, he's not reliable enough to dictate the play. When Carrick went off, Pogba was asked to control the game and he couldn't do it. Yes, that's disappointing but we didn't sign him to be a deep-lying playmaker. I really feel that José made a mistake today in taking off Carrick as it made Pogba even more ineffective. Even before that, Pogba had no real influence on the game which I would put down to him being deployed in a deeper position. Ultimately, José has to learn that if we want o see the best out of Pogba, then he needs to be the most advanced player in a midfield 3.
Depends on what we bought him for. Given he has many other strengths besides finishing, I can't imagine it was a decisive factor. Lots of players are shit at finishing but still incredibly valuable. Mkhitaryan, for example. Zidane wasn't a great finisher, hence why he only finished with 10 league goals once in his career. It's annoying but it's not proof that he's not a world class talent. That's just exaggerated anger fixating on a certain point.
I'm not trying hard to appear intelligent. I'm making a really straightforward, evidence-based argument that's either being avoided or dismissed because it doesn't fit the emotional narrative. I'd rather talk about something substantive than talk in empty statements. Here's a couple of simple questions:
- Did the 2nd most expensive player in the world, Gareth Bale, have a difficult first season?
- Did the Madrid fans criticise him constantly and in extreme terms in his first season?
I would say he's had probably the same amount of bad games as he has good.
What worries me a little is that he hasn't really had a 9/10 performance for us yet, has he? He's had games where he has been good, but by no means phenomenal, but then there are quite a few games where he is downright poor. His talent and potential are unquestionable, but he needs to step up his game here and now. He seems to over-think things and makes things too complicated.
Listen Brwned. I'm not saying you're wrong, I could be wrong and Pogba could be great in his second season. So please don't have the cheek to say that what I'm saying is "empty" and driven by an emotional narrative. I'm showing you the respect so have your opinion and it's unfair to not give me that respect.
In my opinion, Pogba is not as good as all these players you mentioned. I don't think he will improve to a level that we require, and I think we would have been better off spending our money elsewhere. That isn't an emotional response to today, it's what I think based on watching him for years.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're wrong, you would do well to remember that.
I wasn't saying what you were saying was empty. Some of the stuff @sammsky1 was saying when comparing him to Suárez, Bale or Keane was. They were just things that felt right but fall down under any scrutiny. It's purely driven by emotion - nostalgia mainly. I think you're wrong about Pogba but I'm well aware that he could end up failing and I coud be very wrong. I think it's very unlikely he's going to fail but I'm not stating it as a fact. We're all entitled to our opinions.
The other stuff, though, I stand by. Your expectations were unrealistic to begin with and all that's doing is making you more frustrated than you might otherwise be. That point stands up to scrutiny which is why you're not even arsed to answer the questions, because you know yourself it demonstrates that point in a really straightforward way.
I answered your questions repeatedly, but because I don't agree you're acting like I didn't.
Please don't reply to me because it's impossible to have a reasonable debate with someone who can't see two sides to an argument.
Yeap. Zlatan's more culpable for this result than Pogba.
Me and my Scouse mate had a big bust up over Pogba's performance.
I think he was diabolical in the last 30 mins but for the first 60 he was really influential in us dominating the game. I'd go as far as saying he was running the show and looked really quick, nimble and was driving the game with good posssssion player and most of the skills and passes were coming off.
Once the pressure came on in the second half, his composure disappeared and I totally agree that for a price tag like that it isn't good enough to do that. He lost his head yet again but for me this is still a guy who has the potential to really be a good player once he matures and gets his head right. He's still in the head a kid but I don't see it as an irredeemable situation.
For me there is one reason we lost that game Zlatan. I would argue that he's been a big reason we have drawn all these games but our issue is that there is no replacement for Zlatan. We have really mediocre options up front. Rashford up top wouldn't solve anything.
I think he was diabolical in the last 30 mins but for the first 60 he was really influential in us dominating the game. I'd go as far as saying he was running the show and looked really quick, nimble and was driving the game with good posssssion player and most of the skills and passes were coming off.
Once the pressure came on in the second half, his composure disappeared and I totally agree that for a price tag like that it isn't good enough to do that. He lost his head yet again but for me this is still a guy who has the potential to really be a good player once he matures and gets his head right. He's still in the head a kid but I don't see it as an irredeemable situation.
For me there is one reason we lost that game Zlatan. I would argue that he's been a big reason we have drawn all these games but our issue is that there is no replacement for Zlatan. We have really mediocre options up front. Rashford up top wouldn't solve anything.
My job is done here. Thanks.
Didn't he create 3 very good chances to Mata, Rooney and Ibra? Also won penalty which Zlatan missed. So if they scored then all of a sudden Pogba would have been rated as 8/10 player. Fine margins and he is getting lot of stick for someone else's mistakes. As a midfielder he is creating at least 1-2 very good chances per game.
No matter what evidence is provided, he wont because he is so entrenched in his opinion.
Although defending a hot headed pub player type performance is a new level of crazy.
The only questions I asked were in that previous post, about Gareth Bale and Madrid fans, and you answered neither of them. Fair enough if you can't be arsed - football's not supposed to be taken so seriously after all.
I can see the other side of the argument about Pogba. He's immature and a shit finisher and that has cost us a lot of points, today and in other games. Plus he's generally quite inconsistent with some really poor performances scattered throughout the season. I don't think it's a controversial opinion to think he's not worth the money and he's maybe not even good enough for us. I just don't agree with it at all and I think the reason it's so common is because it's based on misinformation and unrealistic expectations.
I wasn't defending his performance today - I criticised it and him as a player in my first post here today - but the fact you can't see that makes it pretty clear that you had no interest in engaging in a wider debate beyond your own narrow perspective.
It's pointless replying to the guy he believes he's far more intelligent than everyone else on the forum obviously.
It is indeed crazy, he was poor today, he was shocking, the last ten minutes he was atrocious and he's not been great at all this season. He needs to step it up or we need to bring someone in who can.
Having great talent will mean little when he's still a complete balloon in 2 years time. I'm genuinely concerned he'll never wake up.
He's also soft as hell which is just bizarre to me given his physique. I think Roy Keane would flatten him back in the day.
He's also soft as hell which is just bizarre to me given his physique. I think Roy Keane would flatten him back in the day.
I agree with you actually, it's the amount of stick he gets that triggers me.
We going around in circles as there is no wider debate: you simply deflect in an dogmatic desire to show you're right.
Good for you if that have that amount of patience and time.
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Some of yous are proper embarrassing 
No comments on donkey Jones conceding a penalty or Mata having another shocker.
No comments on donkey Jones conceding a penalty or Mata having another shocker.
This is the Paul Pogba performance thread, Jones and less so Mata are being rightfully criticised elsewhere.Some of yous are proper embarrassing
No comments on donkey Jones conceding a penalty or Mata having another shocker.
His passing was all over the show today.
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