I'd opt for Varane too. But Torres could be a better long term option and value for money.
Pau Torres
- Thread starter Bebestation
- Start date
Voice of reason
Torres is wank
Not the right defender for us
He's Lindelof in high heels and is just as stable as that under pressure. Looks very classy passing forward but would buckle in the premier league.
Spanish Lindelof sums him up well.
For the money not a chance, Leicester could get 3 superior CBs for that.
For the money not a chance, Leicester could get 3 superior CBs for that.
A few random graphics from the last couple of years that put Torres' strengths (and tbf his aerial weakness too) into context:
His aerial ability is a concern and not wanting him for that reason is fair enough (even if there are reasons to think he'd improve). Certainly wanting Varane instead makes sense, because Varane is a better, ready-made defender.
But the "Spanish Lindelof" stuff really underplays how much more talented a footballer Torres is than Lindelof.
His aerial ability is a concern and not wanting him for that reason is fair enough (even if there are reasons to think he'd improve). Certainly wanting Varane instead makes sense, because Varane is a better, ready-made defender.
But the "Spanish Lindelof" stuff really underplays how much more talented a footballer Torres is than Lindelof.
After every game the general feedback on this guy is "He did ok"...."Wasn't too bad"
We have more than enough "ok" level defenders in our squad. We don't need anymore.
If the player isn't TOP quality regularly and can take our defence to the next level then its a waste of money and time.
I think we should all agree this guy just isn't the one.
We have more than enough "ok" level defenders in our squad. We don't need anymore.
If the player isn't TOP quality regularly and can take our defence to the next level then its a waste of money and time.
I think we should all agree this guy just isn't the one.
All i want in my CBs is to play like Chinelli and Bonucci do. No nonsense defending. Personally i dont care about switching the play or how far they carry the ball or any of that other modern CB nonsense. They are in the team to defend and stop the opposition scoring.A few random graphics from the last couple of years that put Torres' strengths (and tbf his aerial weakness too) into context:
His aerial ability is a concern and not wanting him for that reason is fair enough (even if there are reasons to think he'd improve). Certainly wanting Varane instead makes sense, because Varane is a better, ready-made defender.
But the "Spanish Lindelof" stuff really underplays how much more talented a footballer Torres is than Lindelof.
I dont rate him from what I have seen in this tournament. However that isnt a large sample set
You're free to have whatever preferences you like.
In real-terms though, a no nonsense defender who wasn't good enough on the ball would be an absolute liability for our team both offensively and defensively, because they'd get targeted by the opposition as we try to play out from the back.
City have the best defence in the league. And that defence is built on what they do on the ball (as per Guardiola), not "no nonsense defending". Their defenders' ability on the ball is also a big part of how they can control possession and break teams down. That's why "modern cbs" exist, they're effective and offer more than just stopping the opposition from scoring goals. It's also why someone like Lindelof rightly got picked over someone like Smalling, who was closer to that no-nonsense defender you want.
Whoever we get doesn't need to be as good as Torres in that regard (and I certainly wouldn't want him over someone like Varane just because he's more talented on the ball). But if you ignore it entirely you'd end up with defenders who get exposed in our team, simple as that.
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We get exposed because we continue with this bloody playing out from the back even though we’re crap at it. Sideways-sideways-sideways-sideways-sideways-hospital ball to AWB or opposition close in and we panic
what’s wrong with an old fashioned goal kick every once in a while? Mix it up for gods sake
what’s wrong with an old fashioned goal kick every once in a while? Mix it up for gods sake
Both are decent on the ball . Bonucci is actually quite good at it.
I agree with you. I believe too many teams try too hard to consistently play out of defence. For United for example, it has led to us having a slow build up in games where teams sit back, as the lack of press resistance and off the ball positioning from our midfielders forces a slow buildup that gives our attackers little space or time and are therefore forced to breakdown a fully set and organized defence. In bigger games, it means that we lose control of the ball quickly for the same reasons, forcing us to play deep and rely on counter attacks from deeper positions. Our fans think its us being negative, but a bit like England, once the energy drops off since it can't be sustained throughout the game, we find it difficult to play out due to this.
Like it or not, that's the way we play and it isn't going to suddenly change. So there'd be no point signing players who can't function in that kind of set-up. If we can learn to mix it up sometimes as well then great but fundamentally we just need to get better at it.
Which no doubt is the attraction of signing someone like Torres, who is not just the best on the ball of any CB we have or have been linked to but would also see Maguire shift to RCB where his ability to play out from the back should improve too. Our ability to pass through the lines, resist being pressed, carry the ball from defence and control possession would increase quite a lot. And ultimately that's why Torres is inevitably going to end up at one of the top European sides. A left-footed LCB that good on the ball is gold for a side who place heavy emphasis on playing out from the back.
But even if we sign Varane (who isn't as good as some other options in this regard but is better in other areas), it's still something we need to get better at, hopefully by improving midfield as well. The DM/CB positions are linked in that sense, between whoever we sign in those positions we need to get better on the ball in defensive areas. As is watching our current defenders and midfielders trying to do it gives me heart attacks at times.
He's really not very good.
Agree with you both, something ive enjoyed in games is those few long balls from gk to forwards as a counter. When those hit right, we are deadly.
If we’re basing performances at the Euro’s though M’bappe, Bruno, Kane, De Bruyne etc aren’t very good either
Being a centre back at Villarreal and still finding yourself the number 1 choice for Spain there must be something about him.
Apart from Laporte, Spain aren't exactly blessed with top centre backs since Ramos retired from the national team. That's a poor basis for saying Torres must be a very good centre back if he plays for Spain. Competition is low in that department for them. That's like saying Lindelof must be really good because he's the first choice center back for Sweden.
Well you‘re judging him on these Euro’s my point is that’s daft considering the top players who haven’t performed. He won the Europa with Villarreal and is highly rated whilst being linked to multiple big clubs.
I can imagine people saying Bruno isn’t very good after his Euro’s too.
He might end up winning the tournament yet.
The next one down in the pecking order is fecking Eric Garcia, who hasn't even played 20 league games in his life yet.
first time I've had a proper look at him,
hasnt impressed this tournament
hasnt impressed this tournament
All day this.
Especially as half the time we pass it around aimlessly then pass it back to the keeper under enormous pressure who has to hoof it, but doesn't have the time or space to really aim anyway.
If we had a tiki taka midfield and full backs then it makes a ball playing CB a priority but we don't so it's not.
Hes the spainish lindelof enough said. Let a Spainish club buy him. Wont be an upgrade on lindelof defensively.
Totally agree. Playing out from the back became fashionable with Guardiola Barcelona and tiki taka, since we like lighting fast transitions, playing out of the back is anemic to that idea. Simply don't buy the idea that not havig ball playing CBs is a weakness. Modern myth. No nonsense CBs are good enough for italian clubs i.e. chiellini, bonucci etc and they are the masters of the art of defending. Something other clubs have forgotten about in their rush for stupid playing out of the back.
He’s just gone to Barce and is very highly rated, would have got minutes at City but they knew he’s leaving for the past 18 months.
Take the Villarreal equation out of it, the point is judging a player at these Euro’s is daft given the calibre of players who’s had a shit tournament.
Bonucci is actually one of the poster children for ball playing cb's. He is possibly the best if not 2nd to Luiz in my opinion.
Where has this idea come to fore that you only need CB's good on ball and able to play through press if you are Possession based team it's quite nonsensical ,even if you are counter attacking and fast transition team you need defenders who are able on the ball just look at any earlier Mourinho's teams.
What's myth is that earlier Top teams played cloggers in defense maybe demands on CB's to participate apart from defending is greater now but Top Clubs always had decent footballer's in defense as well.
That he maybe but when it comes to crux of the matter, its his defending that made his career.
Theoretically if we had bonucci and chiellini as our CB pairing would that make us weaker because they are masters of defending (regardless of bonucci ability to carry the ball out of defence)?
Since when is the ability to switch the ball as a CB or carry it out of defence more important than actual defending?
I actually agree we need to mix it up a little, and I think long balls from goal keeper or defender is a quick way to move up the game even if you don’t always win the ball. But interesting stats are that the goalkeepers with least long balls play for:
United, Chelsea, City and Liverpool.
Still seems like part of a winning concept.
Maybe just because we're still in a transition phase on how to master it? It's still only something we begun with last season basically
But yeah, if shit is burning, I agree kick it
We finished second in the Europa. Does that qualify Lindelof as being a top centre back?
Besides Torres isn’t even the best defender at Villarreal. That’s Raul Albiol. Who’s 35.
No but i've seen Lindelof play 100 times where you're judging a player based of this Euro's which is exactly my point.
If you're judging players based of this tournaments performances then M'bappe, Kane, De Bruyne, Bruno etc all have had mediocre tournaments on par or worse than Torres' and we all know they're top players.
I’m judging him by a few Europa league performances for Villarreal as well (I admit I only watched 3 of their games, one being the final). But nothing he’s shown in those games plus in this Euros convinces me that he’s anything more than another Lindelof type.
Usually you can get a sense of what a player is like just by watching a few actual games of them. Even if they do not have the best of games you can sort of feel the type of defender they are (how he commands his fellow defenders, how he fares in the air, how he is in one on one duels , how strong is he etc). This guy doesn’t convince me. He’s got a good passing range but he’s way too passive.
He’s pretty exceptional on the ball and at his age he’s still pretty young for a CB so you’d think he’ll improve. I have doubts over his physicality but you can see why we’re interested.
For the size of him he shouldnt be as weak in the air as his stats suggest
First thing I thought of when he was on, incredibly progressive.
Really?
His passing is clearly one of his strengths, given all that's been spoken (this week especially) about the Maguire and Shaw partnership though I'd prefer a right sided CB and keep Maguire on the left side (I don't know why there's been so much media talk about us wanting a left sided CB anyway, Maguire's always played the left side)
More I see of him, the more I feel the same. He has the Spanish technique on the ball for sure. Of course I want a defender to be able to pass, but more importantly I want them to be able to defend. He is by no means a poor defender, but liek Lindelof, defensively I dont see anything he excels in, yet he has weaknesses similar to Lindelof.
ALso people saying he could be value for money. I am reading he would cost about £60m. Alongside Kounde, he is about the most expensive centre back we could sign this summer? I would actually rather sign Fofana for £80-85m that either of these two if they cost £60m. He isnt at there level yet, but he isnt far behind and is already used to the pace of the premiership and had a season he has got better and better in. Also there are quite a few other centre backs far cheaper than any of these that are already better and more suitable as a partner to Magurie I feel.
For me the improvement he would give us over Lindelof wouldnt be big enough to significantly improve our defece and for £60m to replace Lindelof....that doesnt represent anything other than poor business