I've enjoyed the discussion as you are reasoned and back up what you write with what you believe to be solid evidence. I think agreeing to disagree is fair enough because we can only go by what we've known and experienced - data, particularly on the breed(s) we're discussing, is just impossible to correctly parse because of the designer status (demand) of the breed and the utterly irresponsible and unregulated markets they are farmed in and for.
I've been around more dangerous terriers in my life than any other breed classed as lethal and not once have I seen one have the aggression or horrid stance toward humans they are feared for. I've seen a few that you simply cannot have other dogs around, however, that's an identifiable problem I can vouch for first-hand, but the human aspect, it's just not what I've known and we're talking about a number of dogs in households here. I'm not one to ever consider such breeds safe and that's not for doing anything wrong at all, but rather for the fact it's still a pitbull or an XL or mixed and it is a lethal animal in your home. I've been lulled a bit by a few, but ultimately, it's in my own interest to keep that mental acuity to what is potential powder keg. As I said in a previous post, people see these dogs as members of their family and most simply cannot consider their own dog even a potential threat to them.
Pitbulls and other dangerous breeds of terrier aren't going to be good working dogs for a myriad of reasons, but you can say that for a load of non-lethal breeds, too. I don't think that's much of a barometer, personally.
Aye, good talk. I'll readily admit I don't have much terrier experience whatsoever. I've obviously come across some, but those were likely 'problem' dogs anyway as they were in a rescue. I've never experienced any significant problems with them myself. I do know that you must implicitly trust your dog in many situations, and as such need to see it as a member of the family or team.
Perhaps that's why the bold is true. You cannot implicitly trust a pitbull in the same way that you can trust a GSD or many other molosser/gsd breeds. It's somewhat of a shame as it would be a perfect substitute for the Belgian Malinois in many situations and superior in some ways. You have to remember these breeds go into thousands/millions of situations and have never snapped. Whereas pitbulls in families can and do snap. I think it's absolutely a barometer of reliability. I read an article somewhere that some police departments are taking pitbull types from impounds/shelters and training them, instead of buying properly bred and trained dogs. Seems like a recipe for disaster although they have been used in the past. I'm not sure if they are still doing it.
To the bolded. It's the same principle - lethal animal raised from puppy or kittenhood that is part of the family, but also an animal with the capability to kill on any given bad day - there are loads of YouTube channels with these animals being just as sweet and affable with their family as a domesticated breed is, the caveat obviously being it's a fecking Wolf/Cheetah/Puma/Tiger/Lion; you're going great guns with any of them... until you're not, and it's ultimately seen as you getting what you deserve if any of them decide to end you. Funnily enough, I'm subscribed to
Luna the Pantera used to watch some Kody Antle vids and watched a lot of vids from a woman who effortlessly strolls around with all manner of big cats at a reserve (can't remember her name and her vids are off my algorithm now), as well as
things like this. I find it all rather fascinating, particularly Luna as that panther with the Rottweiler they own are best friends and don't look like they have even a hint of the capability to kill about them, yet we're talking about a panther (and to a lesser extent, a Rottweiler)! As you reference 99.9%, the discussion is about the consequence of that 0.01% these animals are; [much] less domesticated so unpredictability and volatility supposedly through the roof.
If you've hand-reared the animal successfully and are accepted by it as family/alpha or whatever you wish to term where it won't show you hostility, the attitude is going to be different to if it's showing volatility during adolescence, which is generally time when people let go of their domesticated dogs showing hostility, too, (that, or the time when things really go south as the training stops and the animal is allowed to have its own way by asserting dominance - see countless TV shows about out of control dogs) the answer is ultimately no, because irresponsible people will be the first lining up to mistreat and mis-train and it's just an extension of what we already have.
I think that one major difference is, if your dog or domestic cat goes wandering off, it's unlikely to savage a stranger that approaches or tries to pet it. It may show hostility, but the chances it attacks are still miniscule. Even a pitbull. If your fecking "tamed" wolf or lion goes on his jollys, there are going to be issues! You have to keep them in a specific enclosure and away from the public for safety. Luna is interesting, in that she's fairly well treated and seems to have a good amount of space, but she is still treated a fecking pet, which is disgusting for a leopard. She should never be allowed to roam the house unsupervised, she should not be collared, should not have her claws 'trimmed' and should definitely not be allowed to interact with others. She's also only 30kg, essentially the same size as a large Lynx, so for all intents and purpose could not kill a healthy human even if she tried. Tigers/Lions often have doggy friends in sanctuaries though; should be plenty of videos on youtube. It's actually testament to the stability/lack of volatility in domestic dogs. Wonder if a pitbull video exists.
As crazy as Luna is, the next one is worse. Bringing strangers to 'visit' and 'pet' the lions is a level of insanity and greed masked as 'animal welfare' when it's an instagram scam. Not to mention she looked absolutely terrified when the reporter was in there and was constantly tense. I can't find anything else with "Lazmi" and "Lion" together on google, so hopefully she got eaten or something and the lions are being treated as more than props now.
The main guy I watch is/was Kevin Richardson - There's some criticism to be had about how close he gets to them himself and how his channel makes them look 'soft', but in general the sanctuary is well treated and they do a lot of good work. Closed to the public, fenced off from other lions/predators, and not breeding.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_NS4MiiHAFo3CYI7fRSLtQ - Bear in mind the guy is utterly insane; he also has spotted HYENAS there. (ok an all male clan but still) - He's been going for 25 years or so I think, and one story stuck with me. He didn't pay close enough attention or heed their signaling one day when going into one of the lion enclosures, and got a beating from 11 lions. Walked out the next day all cut and bruised once he recovered.
I'm never sure whether to feel sad or disgusted that I too enjoy these 'cute' videos. Edit: wrote the first bit of my post this morning, it seems these days he does allow visitors, and there was a fatality in 2018 when one of his lions on a walk ran off, chased an impala, and ended up yeeting one of the tourist women. Not great.
There's a village somewhere in Africa, I don't remember where. The locals have Hyenas which they 'hug' and 'dance' for shows, whilst baboons in football shirts collect money from the visitors, and the women have venomous snakes which they put inside them. It's a bizarre showing by todays standards, but shows how you can tame wild animals if harsh enough from childhood. They are still wild animals though. Mind you, bear baiting is still legal is fecking South Carolina and popular in Pakistan so we have a ways to go....
I feel one major factor we haven't covered in this discussion is poverty/education. A prospective dog owner should be able to look at the available breeds, meet the breeders and the dogs, and have time to work out if a dog is for them. However purebreeds are damned expensive, and often the good breeders place extremely restrictive rules on potential owners. They won't sell if they feel the dog will be mistreated, or the owner doesn't have the capacity to look after it. They pride themselves of pricing these degenerates out of the market. One example is, almost all breeders in almost all circumstances for larger dogs will require a garden. It's not actually needed [or even beneficial] for many breeds, but it's a catch all. Therefore you have people who are in relative poverty and cannot afford a dog like this. A 60kg dog also eats a lot. So they live in their council flat or house or whatever, in their rough neighbourhood, and want a dog that can protect them and their family and be loving. Pitbulls are banned, so they'll get a similar terrier breed that they can afford to feed from a trash breeder who'll sell to anybody and is only out to make money. And of course the black market breeder will have the parents from a more expensive black market breeder, as most breeders demand their dogs are neutered and spayed. This means they end up with the worst bloodline, no advice, and no money to fix things.The bully simply ticks a lot of boxes. [Ironically somewhat because of this thread] I've decided to get myself a Black Russian Terrier to finally replace my old boy. I'll fly off to Poland to meet some of the genesis breeders and their dogs first, and see what advice I can get on the correct breeder and line for me as well as get to know the dogs a little. I live in an apartment, but don't expect this to be a problem although it will be with some breeders. I'll then possibly have to import from somewhere in Europe. If I was one of those bully owners, I'd have spent a lot less time on breed research, and wouldn't have these options available to me, so would probably be forced into a poorly bred line of Giant Schnauzers from a backyard breeder. (Which isn't the dog I want, but you could trick somebody unaware into thinking its similar)
ps. I don't remember the post it was from, but I'd urge ALL dog owners to get their dog used to and comfortable with the muzzle. It can be used any time you travel or do sports with the dog to prevent impact damage to the jaw.
