Our Rivals' squads next year - Manchester City (2016/2017)

VP89 said:
Because Pep had far greater teams to work with when becoming manager. Ancelotti's Champions League haul on its own is more worthy of credit. He's won the Scudetto with Milan, I'm not sure why you're saying he didn't? Unless you're trying to say he didn't win the league in the year he won the Champions League, which isn't really much of a point.

I'm not even going to bother with the Lippi argument - he completely changed Juventus and dominated with them, before taking his home nation on to win the World Cup in 2006. Pep achieved a lot with Barcelona (arguably having the best XI in history to his disposal, mind) and could be credit for their success. It would be unfair not to. But he then went on to Bayern and in my honest opinion made them weaker than where they were under Heyckness.

So, whilst I think Pep will prove himself in time to be up there, there isn't enough evidence to suggest he's there already. This point was commonly made prior to the season's start, why should it be put to bed 4 games in?
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You act as though Pep just became Barcelona manager and "presto" there you go. He pretty much revamped the team and they had lost most of the players who were responsible for their previous dominance. e.g. from the 2006 final they lost Giuly, Ronaldinho, Edmilson, Deco, Van Bommel, Marquez, Van Bronckhorst, Zambrotta, Thuram. effectively, Peps team were a completely new team to their previous peak. Pep took Barcelona into a new era with a new level. He didn't just inherited the best team in europe.

Ancelotti managed 1 scudetto in how many years?

Lippi argument? I don't know what you are getting at. They were the 2nd best team in Italy when he took over. Lippi also inherited fantastic players - Vialli, Ravenelli, BAGGIO, Del Piero, Conte, Moller, De Livio Jurgen Kohler Cesar, Torricelli etc and like Pep, Lippi made some excellent signings - Pippo Inzaghi, Zidane, Deschamps, Ferrara, Vieri etc. You act like he took over some bum team.
Fact is Peps team did the double, double and were almost impossible to play against, far more entertaining and beautiful on the eye. His Barcelona team brought something new to the table that will stick in our minds forever. Tiki Taka, high intensity pressing, high line. Teams surrendered possession as soon as they won it back. scary stuff
 
The job he's doing at city now is very impressive cause you can see he's not trying to remake the Barca or Bayern sides. They are less patient, quick in transition and generally better defensively when defending deep than I've ever seen his teams. Sure they still press, but not in an all or nothing fashion. Great signs for them, if they play like they did last night throughout the season the league will be over by early April.
 
Ronetta said:
Fair comment.

Anyway. No-one's saying it wasn't a valid penalty shout. But what about the question about whether Rooney should have been booked at least twice and probably more than that? Or the possible penalty for the foul on Otamendi? As Bobby said, "this is football". Some decisions go your way and others not.

What I find suprising is that anyone should honestly suggest that the game was more or less even. City bossed the first half and United came back into it in the 2nd, but did United have more chances than City in the 2nd half? No.

It wasn't entirely one-way traffic of course, but I think it's pretty clear that on the day, the better side won. The next time we play, maybe United will be the better side and will win.
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Better side definitely won in my opinion.
 
Ronetta said:
Fair comment.

Anyway. No-one's saying it wasn't a valid penalty shout. But what about the question about whether Rooney should have been booked at least twice and probably more than that? Or the possible penalty for the foul on Otamendi? As Bobby said, "this is football". Some decisions go your way and others not.

What I find suprising is that anyone should honestly suggest that the game was more or less even. City bossed the first half and United came back into it in the 2nd, but did United have more chances than City in the 2nd half? No.

It wasn't entirely one-way traffic of course, but I think it's pretty clear that on the day, the better side won. The next time we play, maybe United will be the better side and will win.
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Pretty much every United fan agrees City were the better side, can you stop wumming please.
 
Stacks said:
You act as though Pep just became Barcelona manager and "presto" there you go. He pretty much revamped the team and they had lost most of the players who were responsible for their previous dominance. e.g. from the 2006 final they lost Giuly, Ronaldinho, Edmilson, Deco, Van Bommel, Marquez, Van Bronckhorst, Zambrotta, Thuram. effectively, Peps team were a completely new team to their previous peak. Pep took Barcelona into a new era with a new level. He didn't just inherited the best team in europe.

Ancelotti managed 1 scudetto in how many years?

Lippi argument? I don't know what you are getting at. They were the 2nd best team in Italy when he took over. Lippi also inherited fantastic players - Vialli, Ravenelli, BAGGIO, Del Piero, Conte, Moller, De Livio Jurgen Kohler Cesar, Torricelli etc and like Pep, Lippi made some excellent signings - Pippo Inzaghi, Zidane, Deschamps, Ferrara, Vieri etc. You act like he took over some bum team.
Fact is Peps team did the double, double and were almost impossible to play against, far more entertaining and beautiful on the eye. His Barcelona team brought something new to the table that will stick in our minds forever. Tiki Taka, high intensity pressing, high line. Teams surrendered possession as soon as they won it back. scary stuff
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I don't think you're going to win mate, despite pretty much the whole of the footballing community complimenting Pep on his style and achievements VP89 won't accept he's a remarkable and revolutionary manager.
 
Cityfaninpeace said:
I don't think you're going to win mate, despite pretty much the whole of the footballing community complimenting Pep on his style and achievements VP89 won't accept he's a remarkable and revolutionary manager.
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Not the first time I read that in this thread - is this the new shiny word to discribe him? I mean, sure, you know a Pep team when you see one, but isn't revolutionary a bit too much? You can clearly see which managers influenced him; positional play or the use of a false 9 is hardly anything he invented.
 
NK86 said:
United dominated the second half and would have deservedly drawn the game if the penalty would have been rightfully awarded. As for the City dominance - yes you did hog a lot of the ball but you weren't really creating chances. A couple of half chances were what you had until that blunder from us. So yes, the situation may not be completely similar but it wasn't as different as you would make it seem.

United were actually improving in the last 10 mins of the first half and Zlatan missed a golden opportunity right at the end of the first half along with a header opportunity which he would bury 9/10 times.
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Ignoring the fact I don't think it was a penalty, I already made the point that had it been awarded it would have derived from a clear error from Bravo.

In the first half it wasn't just the possession, it was the speed with which we won it back. Mourinho knows how to organise a defence so it was always unlikely City were going to be creating chance after chance but we were controlling the game comfortably and only put under pressure after Bravo's error and United gained momentum. United are a lot better than they played so obviously once you got momentum you improved but bar a 10 minute spell after the goal we were never put under any real pressure, and still looked more dangerous on the counter I'd add. We've struggled in the second half all season as well, so I wouldn't read too much into that. In fact you were the first Premier League side who've failed to score in the second half against us.
 
Stacks said:
You act as though Pep just became Barcelona manager and "presto" there you go. He pretty much revamped the team and they had lost most of the players who were responsible for their previous dominance. e.g. from the 2006 final they lost Giuly, Ronaldinho, Edmilson, Deco, Van Bommel, Marquez, Van Bronckhorst, Zambrotta, Thuram. effectively, Peps team were a completely new team to their previous peak. Pep took Barcelona into a new era with a new level. He didn't just inherited the best team in europe.

Ancelotti managed 1 scudetto in how many years?

Lippi argument? I don't know what you are getting at. They were the 2nd best team in Italy when he took over. Lippi also inherited fantastic players - Vialli, Ravenelli, BAGGIO, Del Piero, Conte, Moller, De Livio Jurgen Kohler Cesar, Torricelli etc and like Pep, Lippi made some excellent signings - Pippo Inzaghi, Zidane, Deschamps, Ferrara, Vieri etc. You act like he took over some bum team.
Fact is Peps team did the double, double and were almost impossible to play against, far more entertaining and beautiful on the eye. His Barcelona team brought something new to the table that will stick in our minds forever. Tiki Taka, high intensity pressing, high line. Teams surrendered possession as soon as they won it back. scary stuff
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Very true. It's easy to forget since it's so long ago now, but in 2008 was only two years after Ronaldinho was considered the undisputed best player in the world and producing performances so good because now still often refer to them as some of the best displays of football they've ever seen.

Guardiola coming in and getting rid of him when he was still only in his late 20s and potentially capable of reproducing that form if he was in the right mindset was a ballsy move, especially when added to the departure of Deco as well.

Then you've got the faith Guardiola put in someone like Busquets as the third part of that midfield trio. And his faith in Pique too, who produced a fantastic performance in the 2009 final just a year after he'd been a relatively nobody in our squad.
 
NK86 said:
Your best chances came in the second half when you were counter attacking. You had 5 at the back and were absolutely under the kosh. I never said our football was pretty or we were playing sumptuous passes cutting through you but you were definitely feeling the pressure and we looked the most likely to score for the last 15 mins and had you pushed back for almost the whole of the second half.
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We weren't under the kosh, you guys played well no doubt. You didn't dominate and yes any team visiting Old Trafford should expect to have to play a period of the game on the counter. Teams that play on the counter aren't being dominated, Leicester played on the counter last night and weren't dominated, in fact they dominated the game on the counter. No doubt we played on the counter and you guys put pressure on. You were much improved too. But you hardly dominated the half and I'm not sure but would say we again had more of the ball, and more shots both on and off target 2nd half. Hardly signs of a team who was dominated. The team doing the pushing is not always the team dominating. Jose has dominated games with some of the most negative tactics ever at times. As I said you were the better more attacking team but thats hardly domination.
 
Xivon said:
Not the first time I read that in this thread - is this the new shiny word to discribe him? I mean, sure, you know a Pep team when you see one, but isn't revolutionary a bit too much? You can clearly see which managers influenced him; positional play or the use of a false 9 is hardly anything he invented.
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I think he's revolutionary cause of the implementation rather than the idea. If you were to read Rinus michels book and watched peps team its basically the description of what you're seeing. However we have never in football history seen it being implemented the way he did while he was at Barca.
 
Year n1 goal: League + FA Cup
Year 2 and 3: Champs league ish + League

By year 2, City will probably be in tier 1 in Europe because of Pep and his signings.

After year 3, maybe Italy with their new investments...

I do see Pep being the manager for United in the future. Just not the near future.
 
BobbyManc said:
Ignoring the fact I don't think it was a penalty, I already made the point that had it been awarded it would have derived from a clear error from Bravo.

In the first half it wasn't just the possession, it was the speed with which we won it back. Mourinho knows how to organise a defence so it was always unlikely City were going to be creating chance after chance but we were controlling the game comfortably and only put under pressure after Bravo's error and United gained momentum. United are a lot better than they played so obviously once you got momentum you improved but bar a 10 minute spell after the goal we were never put under any real pressure, and still looked more dangerous on the counter I'd add. We've struggled in the second half all season as well, so I wouldn't read too much into that. In fact you were the first Premier League side who've failed to score in the second half against us.
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You surely must have only seen the incident in real time. It's impossible to come to the conclusion you have if you have seen all the replays. The fact of the matter is you stole a win aided by poor officiating & Utd having a bad day at the office. If City fans would show a little humility & accept the truth they would gain a lot more respect from opposition fans.
 
namco said:
You surely must have only seen the incident in real time. It's impossible to come to the conclusion you have if you have seen all the replays. The fact of the matter is you stole a win aided by poor officiating & Utd having a bad day at the office. If City fans would show a little humility & accept the truth they would gain a lot more respect from opposition fans.
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Lol
 
If we drop points on Sunday, these will start pulling away. :mad:
 
They are depressingly good.
Pep has transformed them form he laziest team in the league the hardest working team in no time. :(
 
Adisa said:
They are depressingly good.
Pep has transformed them form he laziest team in the league the hardest working team in no time. :(
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That's the scary thing.

City were always their own worst enemies and the players evidently seemed like they couldn't give a damn.

Imo they had the best team in the league over the last few years. Now they have the best manager. It hurts just watching that.
 
NYC said:
Year n1 goal: League + FA Cup
Year 2 and 3: Champs league ish + League

By year 2, City will probably be in tier 1 in Europe because of Pep and his signings.

After year 3, maybe Italy with their new investments...

I do see Pep being the manager for United in the future. Just not the near future.
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Pep will never manage United. Just like he won't manage Real.
 
K2K said:
That's the scary thing.

City were always their own worst enemies and the players evidently seemed like they couldn't give a damn.

Imo they had the best team in the league over the last few years. Now they have the best manager. It hurts just watching that.
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Stopped watching when Gundogan scored. The commentators and everyone drooling over them. If we play badly tomorrow, I think I will need medication.
 
Cheesy said:
Very true. It's easy to forget since it's so long ago now, but in 2008 was only two years after Ronaldinho was considered the undisputed best player in the world and producing performances so good because now still often refer to them as some of the best displays of football they've ever seen.

Guardiola coming in and getting rid of him when he was still only in his late 20s and potentially capable of reproducing that form if he was in the right mindset was a ballsy move, especially when added to the departure of Deco as well.
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I'm a big Guardiola fan myself but I always thought getting rid of Ronaldinho and Deco got very overrated. There were massive problems during the season and before Guardiola became manager it was already very likely these transfers would happen. I think they would have sold them with another coach aswell, certainly Ronaldinho.
 
Why have they so easily been able to adapt to what Guardiola wants? We've spent three fecking years trying to create an identity and a style of play that is effective and it seems like they've just been able to flip a switch. So annoying
 
Ibi Dreams said:
Why have they so easily been able to adapt to what Guardiola wants? We've spent three fecking years trying to create an identity and a style of play that is effective and it seems like they've just been able to flip a switch. So annoying
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They're major problem was motivational/mental it seems. City have always had technically gifted players and great attackers and they've also added smartly in Nolito and Gundogan. The defence is still shaky, but their hard work pressing high and winning it back in midfield is a big help.
 
Ibi Dreams said:
Why have they so easily been able to adapt to what Guardiola wants? We've spent three fecking years trying to create an identity and a style of play that is effective and it seems like they've just been able to flip a switch. So annoying
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No fecking around. No philosophy bullshit. Football is a simple game.
 
Ibi Dreams said:
Why have they so easily been able to adapt to what Guardiola wants? We've spent three fecking years trying to create an identity and a style of play that is effective and it seems like they've just been able to flip a switch. So annoying
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Might be because his system actually works.
 
My 2 bits after observing the last few matches: both City and Liverpool tend to fall off in the 2nd half. That's when they are most vulnerable, and that's where the window of opportunity for other big teams arises.
 
He's a tactical innovator. Using full backs to help control possession allows the wingers to stay forward and wide. Add a willing runner up top and they can create holes everywhere. Add high pressing and they have near complete control. Add De Bruyne and Silva and they have the tools to utilise the space.

The only effective way is to play direct against them and bypass the press, but you have to win the second balls, something we really struggled with against Fernandinho and later Fernando.

De Bruyne will be player of the season in this system, he has the technical ability, the physicality and the work rate. And we have the manager that let him go.
 
I'm so jealous of City. I wanted Pep here over anything and it's no surprise he's already got City playing like this despite some people thinking he'd struggle in the PL. Believe it or not, the PL isn't the be all and end all of football. I hate José's football, and hate the excuses over the years of "needing time" to excuse shite football, so to see the likes of Klopp and Pep initiating their styles fairly quickly (though, not perfectly by any means) while we still lack any sort of team cohesion is very disheartening.
 
I'll be looking forward to Pep vs. Klopp, see if their duel will be as intense as in their Bayern vs. Dortmund days. I also hope for City-Dortmund in the CL, as Pep and Tuchel are a very similar type of coach and hold each other in high esteem; plus of course they make their sides play very entertaining football.
City vs Bayern would be great too, but seeing Pep on the wrong side of the coaching area would come with mixed feelings, no matter the outcome.
 
Ibi Dreams said:
Why have they so easily been able to adapt to what Guardiola wants? We've spent three fecking years trying to create an identity and a style of play that is effective and it seems like they've just been able to flip a switch. So annoying
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I think that's partly because Pep is absolutely clear what he wants from each player, to the very last detail, and his methods work. If you consistently know where you're supposed to be then it's a quick learning curve. I suspect he spends far more time on positional movement on the training field than any other manager in the league.

Secondly, I think our talent in the side is very high. We have some of the most gifted footballers in the league who are taking these ideas and taking it onto the field. Most noticeably the midfield 3 of Silva, De Bruyne and Fernandinho. All 3 are fantastic footballers. We seem to isolate the possession game into a small area of the field in the middle of the park where those 3 operate. It's only from there we drag players inside to create the space for the wingers.

I've been very impressed with how quickly we've looked like a very strong outfit, but we're not unbeatable, and we've not won the title in September. I think there's a few key players in this system who would be hard to replace. Personally, I think Fernandinho is the most important player for us right now, while Silva and KDB are getting all of the plaudits. He has a role that I think both Fernando and Delph would fall far short in.
 
Ibi Dreams said:
Why have they so easily been able to adapt to what Guardiola wants? We've spent three fecking years trying to create an identity and a style of play that is effective and it seems like they've just been able to flip a switch. So annoying
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They've been building towards Guardiola for four years.
 
They're bulldozing the league right now. And I can only see it getting worse, their best players are returning to fitness and form.
I hope Mourinho reacts to this positively, and gets something out of our disjointed, style-less, underperforming, out-of-form squad.
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
They're bulldozing the league right now. And I can only see it getting worse, their best players are returning to fitness and form.
I hope Mourinho reacts to this positively, and gets something out of our disjointed, style-less, underperforming, out-of-form squad.
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Yup. Now they got Gündogan back aswell who'll strengthen their midfield further. If he'll stay fit, and get back to his best again, they'll be really really hard to beat this season.
 
Manchester Dan said:
I think that's partly because Pep is absolutely clear what he wants from each player, to the very last detail, and his methods work. If you consistently know where you're supposed to be then it's a quick learning curve. I suspect he spends far more time on positional movement on the training field than any other manager in the league.
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I was reading a few interviews by players who had previously been coached by LvG when the news broke that he was about to join United. They all said his instructions and style was clear, and generally worked out. Either our players are exceptionally thick, or LvG has declined dramatically since his Bayern days, or his style is unsuitable for the PL. Otherwise his failure makes no sense.
 
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